Just for fun...

[MarinePhinFan]

If any of you have read some of my "Brady vs Manning" threads you would know that I love to crunch and compare stats. Well, I realized that I'd crunched more of their stats than I have for my favorite player of all time, Dan Marino.

This should help some of you defend Dan the next time some idiot says he couldn't win it all. Or he was a choke artist etc.

Marino's post season record was 8-10...not very impressive. But in games where the defense held the opposition to 17 points or less, Dan went 6-1. By comparison, Brady is 9-1 in such games and Manning 4-0. Dan's problem was in 7 of those 18 playoff games the Dolphin's defense allowed 29 or more points, including 5 times where they allowed 37 or more points. Not surprisingly, the Dolphins were 0-7 in those games.

Looking at QB ratings, when Dan had a QB rating of less than 80 the Dolphins were 1-9 in the playoffs. That compares to 5-2 for Brady and 3-4 for Manning. When Dan played poorly in the playoffs, his teams did not step up in other areas and help him out the way the Patriots have done for Brady when he played poorly.

One of the flaws of looking just at the super bowl rings is the assumption that all truly great QB's step up at playoff time. While that is true to a certain extent, is that the only attribute of a great QB? Or even a good marker for one? Could a great QB lead his team to a couple of extra wins in the regular season and earn his team a playoff berth they otherwise wouldn't have gotten? Would that result in those same teams being exposed in the playoffs and some lopsided scores?

That appears to be the case for Marino. The Dolphins were 1-6 on the road in the playoffs with Marino, and in 4 of those 6 losses they scored 37+ points! Furthermore, Marino had 5 games where the dolphins scored 14 points or less in a playoff game. Of those five games, 3 of them involved the other team scoring 29 or more points, indicating a huge mismatch.

It's easy to criticize Marino for his failures in the playoffs. Most of the time those failures were due to an incredible leaky defense. Some of that may have been Marino's ability to get an otherwise unqualified team into the playoffs. In 1999, Dan guided a team to the playoffs that allowed more points than they scored, and even led them to a first round playoff victory! In 1997 he led a team to the playoffs that should have won only 8 games based on their point differential.

I'm sure dan is as regretful as anyone that he never got that Super Bowl ring, but to lay all, or even a majority, of that blame on Marino is just wrong. Marino never won a super bowl because his teammates just weren't quite championship caliber.

 

[JCane]

Dan Marino's biggest reason for not winning a Super Bowl was Dan Marino. Dan was a great player. One of the greatest QB's of all-time without a doubt. But Dan was stubborn. And it was his way or no way. That's what hurt Dan Marino.

 

[MarinePhinFan]

Dan Marino's biggest reason for not winning a Super Bowl was Dan Marino. Dan was a great player. One of the greatest QB's of all-time without a doubt. But Dan was stubborn. And it was his way or no way. That's what hurt Dan Marino.

Care to expand on that? Do you think Dan made the picks come draft time? Do you think Dan told the DC how to scheme or plan for their opponents? Because if it's anything short of that..well, let's just say you need to explain yourself a little better before I buy your opinion.

 

[JCane]

Our biggest problem when Dan was here was the lack of a running back. When you look at the "great" QB's to win Super Bowl's they all had great running backs to pound the football and open up the passing game. Troy Aikman had Emmitt Smith. Joe Montana and Steve Young had Ricky Waters and Roger Craig. dan never had that. But Dan wasn't willing to run the football either. He just wasn't. He would have demanded a trade before handing the ball off to a power Pro Bowl type running back. Dan was going to beat you and no one was going to help him. That was just his stubborn personality. Dan has even commented on the current Wildcat system and said he would have a serious problem with it. Imagine how great this team would be with Dan Marino in his prime. You couldn't stop the Wildcat or Dan Marino. Duper and Clayton weren't great receivers. Marino made them great. We had 27 running backs during Dan's career. That's ridiculous.

People in the business behind the scenes have always noted Dan's stubborn personality and his ego and one of his biggest flaws. And I absolutely buy that. I love Marino as much as anyone. But I refuse to be blinded. We never went out and got the horse running back to put us over the hump.

 

[MarinePhinFan]

Our biggest problem when Dan was here was the lack of a running back. When you look at the "great" QB's to win Super Bowl's they all had great running backs to pound the football and open up the passing game. Troy Aikman had Emmitt Smith. Joe Montana and Steve Young had Ricky Waters and Roger Craig. dan never had that. But Dan wasn't willing to run the football either. He just wasn't. He would have demanded a trade before handing the ball off to a power Pro Bowl type running back. Dan was going to beat you and no one was going to help him. That was just his stubborn personality. Dan has even commented on the current Wildcat system and said he would have a serious problem with it. Imagine how great this team would be with Dan Marino in his prime. You couldn't stop the Wildcat or Dan Marino. Duper and Clayton weren't great receivers. Marino made them great. We had 27 running backs during Dan's career. That's ridiculous.

People in the business behind the scenes have always noted Dan's stubborn personality and his ego and one of his biggest flaws. And I absolutely buy that. I love Marino as much as anyone. But I refuse to be blinded. We never went out and got the horse running back to put us over the hump.

I don't buy it. Miami had teams with some very good running games.

1984 Dolphins- 1918 yds rushing, 18TD's, 4.0 Y/A
2001 Pats- 1793 yds rushing, 15 TD's, 3.8 Y/A

The difference? Defense.

Miami's defense gave up 211yds rushing to the 49ers.

The Pats defense gave up 76 yds to Marshall Faulk!


1985 Dolphins- 1729 yds, 19, 3.9
2003 Patriots- 1607 yds, 9, 3.4

Difference? Defense. Miami's defense gave up a whopping 320 points that season. The Pats defense gave up 238.

I can go on and on with these types of examples. The Dolphins may not have had one great RB while Dan was there, but they ran the ball well enough for a number of seasons when you compare them to some of the other Super Bowl Champs.

Now, in 1990 and 1998 the Dolphins had a very poor running attack with a great defense.

The Patriots this decade have won 3 Super Bowls with a defense ranked 6th, 2nd, 1st respectively. Brady has played only 2 seasons where his defense was ranked lower than 6th and he failed to win more than 10 game either time and got into the playoffs only once. They also had some really good running games to go with that.

From 1984 until Dan's retirement in 1999 the Dolphins had a defense ranked 6th or better TWICE. 4th in 1990 and 1st in 1998. Those 2 seasons their running game was atrocious. In 1998 the Dolphins D also gave up 4.0 yds per rush. When your "great" defense can't stop the run they WILL lose in the playoffs to teams who can run. And they did. The Broncos ran all over us for 250yds. Elway's stats were 14-23 172 yds. Nothing to write home about. However, T Davis had 21 carries for 200yds. That's nearly 10 yds per CARRY!

Dan played 12 seasons with a defense ranked worse than 12th in the league. He got them into the playoffs 7 of those seasons.

Point differential compared between Dan's first 9 seasons in the league and the Patriots first 9 with Brady/Cassel.

Dolphins- 215, 108, 25, 27, -61, -48, 94, -6, 59

Pats- 99, 35, 110, 177, 41, 148, 315, 101, 105


The numbers prove that defense was Marino's Achilles heal. And there was nothing he could have done about it.

 

[WVDolphan]

AHHH. The Marino argument.

Mine is always this and its really all you need to go with because these are true.

You dont really need to "defend" Marino. The perfermance speaks for its self. But, if you feel you must, here are a few nuggets to drop on the lost.....

1) Defense. Plain and simple. Look at the years Aikman, Bradshaw, and Montana won super bowls. In each and every one of those seasons, they had a defense ranked first in either points against, total yardage, or both.

If you go back and look, there is a direct cooralation to the years Marino went deep into the playoffs. The phins had their best defenses. When the D was ranked in or near the top 10, Marino made his biggest playoff pushes.

Its really that simple. You give Marino a top ranked defense, he is winning the super bowl EVERY TIME.

Football IS the ultimate team sport, yet when ranking QBs, so many people tend to forget that and want to go with the championships argument. Its BS.

No one played the position of QB better than Marino. Just watch him play. He was as close to flawless as any QB ever was. Its a no brainer that he was the best football player of all time. He did everything better than any other QB.

All Dan needed was a defense. Thats it. You give him the defenses that all these other QBs won titles with and its a wrap. Dan was the best player on the field in every game he played in and it wasnt close. Problem is, the other 21 guys playing with him werent as quality as the other 21 guys that other QBs had.

And please, forget the RB argument. RB is offense. When you have Marino, YOU HAVE OFFENSE. And plenty of it. What you need is DEFENSE. Dan dosent play defense. And dont give me that RB would rest the defense BS. Picking up first downs and moving the ball on drives rests the defense. Thats what a good offense does whether its a good running offense or a good passing offense..........moves the ball. Not every drive was an 80yard td pass. Dan moved the chains and kept the defense resting. The defense just wasnt that good. Thats all.

 

[MarinePhinFan]

AHHH. The Marino argument.

Mine is always this and its really all you need to go with because these are true.

You dont really need to "defend" Marino. The perfermance speaks for its self. But, if you feel you must, here are a few nuggets to drop on the lost.....

1) Defense. Plain and simple. Look at the years Aikman, Bradshaw, and Montana won super bowls. In each and every one of those seasons, they had a defense ranked first in either points against, total yardage, or both.

If you go back and look, there is a direct cooralation to the years Marino went deep into the playoffs. The phins had their best defenses. When the D was ranked in or near the top 10, Marino made his biggest playoff pushes.

Its really that simple. You give Marino a top ranked defense, he is winning the super bowl EVERY TIME.

Football IS the ultimate team sport, yet when ranking QBs, so many people tend to forget that and want to go with the championships argument. Its BS.

No one played the position of QB better than Marino. Just watch him play. He was as close to flawless as any QB ever was. Its a no brainer that he was the best football player of all time. He did everything better than any other QB.

All Dan needed was a defense. Thats it. You give him the defenses that all these other QBs won titles with and its a wrap. Dan was the best player on the field in every game he played in and it wasnt close. Problem is, the other 21 guys playing with him werent as quality as the other 21 guys that other QBs had.

And please, forget the RB argument. RB is offense. When you have Marino, YOU HAVE OFFENSE. And plenty of it. What you need is DEFENSE. Dan dosent play defense. And dont give me that RB would rest the defense BS. Picking up first downs and moving the ball on drives rests the defense. Thats what a good offense does whether its a good running offense or a good passing offense..........moves the ball. Not every drive was an 80yard td pass. Dan moved the chains and kept the defense resting. The defense just wasnt that good. Thats all.

Hence my last sentence in my last post:

The numbers prove that defense was Marino's Achilles heal. And there was nothing he could have done about it.

You're right in your beliefs about defense, but I showed it to be true with facts and objective stats. If someone uses my argument they win. If someone uses your argument and presents it the way you did they would be called a homer.

 

[WVDolphan]

Hence my last sentence in my last post:

The numbers prove that defense was Marino's Achilles heal. And there was nothing he could have done about it.

You're right in your beliefs about defense, but I showed it to be true with facts and objective stats. If someone uses my argument they win. If someone uses your argument and presents it the way you did they would be called a homer.

Call it whatever they want....its true.

And I did use facts. The top ranked defense fact with those "championship quarterbacks" and the cooralation for playoff runs with Marino defenses. Look em up if you choose. Im not researching something I already know.

 

[MarinePhinFan]

Call it whatever they want....its true.

And I did use facts. The top ranked defense fact with those "championship quarterbacks" and the cooralation for playoff runs with Marino defenses. Look em up if you choose. Im not researching something I already know.

You didn't read my post or else you would have seen where Marino had good defenses in 1990 and 1998. At least on paper. They still didn't get far into the playoffs though because of their defense.

 

[eddie4fins]

Our biggest problem when Dan was here was the lack of a running back. When you look at the "great" QB's to win Super Bowl's they all had great running backs to pound the football and open up the passing game. Troy Aikman had Emmitt Smith. Joe Montana and Steve Young had Ricky Waters and Roger Craig. dan never had that. But Dan wasn't willing to run the football either. He just wasn't. He would have demanded a trade before handing the ball off to a power Pro Bowl type running back. Dan was going to beat you and no one was going to help him. That was just his stubborn personality. Dan has even commented on the current Wildcat system and said he would have a serious problem with it. Imagine how great this team would be with Dan Marino in his prime. You couldn't stop the Wildcat or Dan Marino. Duper and Clayton weren't great receivers. Marino made them great. We had 27 running backs during Dan's career. That's ridiculous.

People in the business behind the scenes have always noted Dan's stubborn personality and his ego and one of his biggest flaws. And I absolutely buy that. I love Marino as much as anyone. But I refuse to be blinded. We never went out and got the horse running back to put us over the hump.

You must be nuts Duper and Clayton weren't great? did you ever watch them? you must not have heard teammates stories about their athleticism, those guys constantly got open for Dan and rarely dropped balls, I have to say more than anything they complimented each other!

 

[MarinePhinFan]

You must be nuts Duper and Clayton weren't great? did you ever watch them? you must not have heard teammates stories about their athleticism, those guys constantly got open for Dan and rarely dropped balls, I have to say more than anything they complimented each other!

I have to agree with JCane. The Mark's Brothers weren't "great" by any means. They were good, yes, but no where near a Moss, Rice, Carter, Harrison, Alworth, Largent or Swann. Those were GREAT WR's.

 

[Butterfrog 2.0]

Marino came to Miami about 10-15 years too soon..... Can you imagine Dan with a defense like the one with JT in his prime, Ogun, Surtain, Madison, and ZACH THOMAS?