Killing Time 7/ Our Stating Offense Leaves our Defense Wishing Upon a Star!

[DolFinatic718]

One thing that jumps out at me about your so called research. For one Jay is injured in the first half of the seasons, in 02 after the Denver game (6th game) and didn't start again until game 13. If you can't add that only 4 games remaining in the season.

Secondly and probably more importantly, you blame Fiedler for these inconsistencies, but everytime our back-up Qb has done worse then Fiedler and put us in jeopardy of missing the playoffs. In 02 it was Lucas going 2-4 as a starter when Fiedler started this team off at 5-1. That dramatically changed our playoff picture, making us 7-5 when Fiedler returned and going 2-2 to finish the year out.

In 03 pretty much the same scenerario played itself out. The Fiedler led dolphins were 4-2 before he got injured and our back up took over going 2-2, and would of been 2-3 if it wasn't for Fiedler saving the day against Washington. Again after coming back from injury the Fiedler led Phins finished up 2-2.

So how can you blame a Jay when he is injured almost smack in the middle of the season. Playing 4 games apiece at the end of the season after coming back from injury is no way to gauge a Qb. If our Back up's could of did better then .500 that would of kept us on the same track that Fiedler seasonally leaves us off at.

Also in 02 in the last 4 games he started after coming back from injury Jay threw 5 TD's to 2 INT's. And in none of the games was his QBR lower then 70.4.

Also in 02 our line was not strong. We just had a good running game with a superb back. That strong line you just mentioned gave up 26 sacks, atleast thats how many I accounted for.

I like the post that mentioned

1.O line
2.PLay Calling
3.Wr
4.Qb

Makes more sense then after your in depth research all you could due was pin blame on one guy in a team sport...

Works Cited:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12363/gamelogs/2002
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12363/gamelogs/2003

 

[Disnardo]

One thing that jumps out at me about your so called research. For one Jay is injured in the first half of the seasons, in 02 after the Denver game (6th game) and didn't start again until game 13. If you can't add that only 4 games remaining in the season.

This is my post, all 10 games he played in 02. He played 2/3 of the season, and granted, the backup QB did not play as well as Jay. ALL games played in the season are used for stats. I even stated that his numbers here were much improved, but that there is a noticeable drop in the 2nd half numbers...

MY POST:His QBR in his 1st half of games 2002 was 99.8%, all 10 games started.
In his 2nd half of games, his QBR was 68.6% though better than 2003 stats, their still a large variance.
This OL did very well, giving JF very good QBR #s at the half. But, this variance of 30 points in both years, still show the trend, of his below average performance in the 2nd half, even with a solid OL

So how can you blame a Jay when he is injured almost smack in the middle of the season. Playing 4 games apiece at the end of the season after coming back from injury is no way to gauge a Qb. If our Back up's could of did better then .500 that would of kept us on the same track that Fiedler seasonally leaves us off at
Also in 02 in the last 4 games he started after coming back from injury Jay threw 5 TD's to 2 INT's. And in none of the games was his QBR lower then 70.4..

This is my post on his injury, and the solid OL play in 02. I actually say that JF PLAYED BETTER than the games before his injury, at Denver. He played the best in those 4 games that year, but again it's his 2nd half performance. He plays the same way injury or not...

MY POST:I also looked to see if, their was significant difference before and after his thumb injury in 2002, while analyzing his 1st and 2nd half stats, and here is something that was definitely noticeable.
He had a very good performance, 106.9% QBR in the 1st half of the final 4 games in 2002, returning form injury, than in the 1st half of the 1st 6 games of that season.

But we lost the last 2 games in that month, why? His performance again went south, with a QBR in the 2nd half of those games, of 55.5%

Secondly and probably more importantly, you blame Fiedler for these inconsistencies, but everytime our back-up Qb has done worse then Fiedler and put us in jeopardy of missing the playoffs. In 02 it was Lucas going 2-4 as a starter when Fiedler started this team off at 5-1. That dramatically changed our playoff picture, making us 7-5 when Fiedler returned and going 2-2 to finish the year out.

In 03 pretty much the same scenerario played itself out. The Fiedler led dolphins were 4-2 before he got injured and our back up took over going 2-2, and would of been 2-3 if it wasn't for Fiedler saving the day against Washington. Again after coming back from injury the Fiedler led Phins finished up 2-2.

I agree, that our backups have been worse than JF, when we needed them to not loose, but they are suppose to be backups, thats why they are not starting. These backups played a handful of games, and have definitely affected the season's outcome.

JF is the starter for this team, he has the winning % not the backups, and if he starting a trend to get hurt every year, he should not be starting then, unless we can get a backup that can at least play like him...

Against Washington, he played that 4th quarter, like he just got into the 1st quarter of any of his games before. He played good, consistant with the stats, that I posted. That is, he plays the 1st 2 quarters of every game very well, but than his performance takes a dive after the half. Thats the inconsistancy I am talking about, a 30 point variance from the 1st half to the 2nd half.

Also in 02 our line was not strong. We just had a good running game with a superb back. That strong line you just mentioned gave up 26 sacks, atleast thats how many I accounted for.

We had 25 sacks given up in 02. It was not that bad or the end of the world.

This year Denver, Tenn, and Car gave up 25 sacks; NE gave up 32; Dallas gave up 37; Balt gave up 41; Phili, Seattle and ST Louis gave up 43. They all had different offensive schemes, and defenses that were really not much better than our. We only gave up 31 sacks in 2003, most of these other teams OL was worse for pass blocking. The only common factor in all of these teams is that they made the Post Season behind good playing consistant QBs...:calm:

I like the post that mentioned

1.O line
2.PLay Calling
3.Wr
4.Qb

Makes more sense then after your in depth research all you could due was pin blame on one guy in a team sport...

Works Cited:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12363/gamelogs/2002
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12363/gamelogs/2003

I don't disagree, with this assesment, I do not agree with the order of it. Teams when they try to start from scratch, tend to get a QB first, that is the center and leader of that team. The team goes as the QB goes...

To answer your question that it is a team sport, so the team should take the blame not the individual. I truelly believe it is a team sport, but there are indivuals in the team and there are times that they should be held accountable. I will hold any player on my favorite team accountable if I notice consistant performance issues.
Mostly all employees in a business consider themselves a team, working together to earn money and make money for the business.
If you do not perform does your boss put you on notice?
WIll you get fired if you don't pull your own weight?
Remmember it is a team sport, but also a business, ask Wayne? :)

Also let me add, that there were other posts after my thread, where they have good points and not blaming JF for all the offensive problems over the last few years.

Bottom line my opinions are not the only ones nor maybe the correct ones, but to me they are substanciating in evidence, and to some extreme, backed up by others... :gossip:

Hey DF718, have you really noticed my sig. I have had it since the end of last season, and that is the biggest problem with the team, until the team shows something else...

At least, its reading material in this long offseason, so take as just that... :hitself: eace:

 

[Disnardo]

I agree good read, as was mentioned before DW and JF need to share the blame for the problems in the second half of games. JAY IS A BACKUP QB ONLY!!!!!!!!!! He does not have what it takes to be a starter in this league,end of story. As long as Jay is on the roster and Wanny is the HC the fins will be the same no matter who else Rick brings in. DW has already made it clear we are going to play the same run,run,pass type of game this year. As long as this is the case the rest of the AFC east will be smillin when they see us on the schedule.

I have to tread carefully in response to this post, I don't want to sound like I am critizicing it, because their is a lot of truth to it. So let me start by saying thanks for your comments.

Jay is definitely inconsistant, but he did very well in 2002, with the OL at the time, even if we did not have any better WR corp. He had a 85% QBR for the year, numbers like Brady, Favre, and McNabb have had for many years. If he would not have gotten hurt in 2002, we probably would have made it deep into the Post Season. Now would we have won the SB against Tampa, probably not, since Tampa has always outplay our OL during every Pre-Season and practices.

In 2002, we ran, ran and passed also and had a different outcome when it came to performance. Many times defenses stacked up the line to stop RW, but the OL still made the holes for him. One example was the Buffalo game, the OL made the holes for Ricky 200+ game. Buffalo had almost every defensive player around the line in many of those 50+ yds runs.

Jay and Lucas (in his last few games) believe it or not, were very productive in that offense, riding the coat-tails of RW and the OL, with 42 TDs combined.

In closing, I just want to add, that if Jay reduces his inconsitancy, he is very capable of taking this team far. After all these years though, it's a great big IF...

 

[DolFinatic718]

ok I am not going to argue with you point for point but I will just say that Jay Fiedler is not what is wrong with this team. It is the O line and Wr and bad coaching. Jay makes alot of bad plays and throws but in the course of a game he makes more positvie plays. This offense lacks enough play makers to make up for any form of average play. Offensive line is the most important piece of an offense, whether teams go after a Qb first doesn't matter. A Qb will deliver the ball but your O line has to give him enough time to do that, or it doesn't matter if your have Young back there.

Your contradicting yourself. You said that Jay is inconsistent but you praise him for his first half of the season play. You say its the second half of the season where he falters. I bring up his injury and now you say its the second half of the games after his injury. Your confusing more people then just me here. For one, nobody is the same after an injury, and we never know how serious that injury is because all players want to play and mask pain. You are judging a man that comebacks to play 4 games at the end of the season after injury keeps him out atleast 5 games. Thats a long team to be out during a season, and most of that is without practicing or throwing the ball.

Its quite simple you see, and no numbers are needed.

We need more play makers on this team. I mean not just at O line and Wr. We need an intimidating O line that dominates passing and run blocking.

We need recievers that can adjust to a pass that is not perfect and get YAC. We need a TE that can not only Catch, but run block.

And last but not least we need a Qb who can complete the puzzle by delivering the ball where it needs to be and managing the game.

Have we ever had all these things clicking all at once? No, but we are a little closer atleast this year then we were last year. So whatever the case is, the starting Qb should benefit from it.

 

[Y-TownPhinVet]

I'd like to add one more point to this thread. One of the many articles that I read this week (I'm not sure by who or which player said it, besides someone on this site will help ) a player stated the difference when it comes to the new WR coach Sullivan. This is the point of the quote the player made (sorry, just woke up :confused: ) : "Coach Sullivan is requiring concice routes, unlike before when the recievers could adjust when they wanted."

Although everything written by everyone has validity, IMO, the OC and the other coaches in 02/03 are the main reason for JF bad numbers. How can a QB throw a 20 yard out if the reciever adjusts it 3-5 yards either way? :confused: Timing and distance would be effected. :mad:

Good points by everyone, one of the more interesting posts to think about :) .

 

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

I would rather Miami try to hold onto a lead and make the opponent beat the defense in order to win the game rather than have Fiedler throw passes in an attempt to be aggressive and have him throw INT's to make it easier for oppponents to come back.

There is no faith in Fiedler as a starting QB who can blame Norv Turner or Wannstedt??

 

[BlueFin]

After reading 100s of posts and gathering opinions over the last 8 months that I have been on this site, I decided to compile some stats, and some observation on our offensive performance over the last 2 years. Since they get the blame for all our pains and no gain (in Post Season appearance), I decided to put together my opinion. Many of points on this topic has been touched on before.

In reality, most of us Dolfans have blamed practically all of our offensive woes last year, on the offensive line. This unit gets the blame, for our lack of production from some of our WRs, RBs, and QBs. This unit took a turn for the worse last year. Now there is no question about this unit’s lack of production, since the FO has let go of 4 out of its 5 starters last year.

We seem to think, that somehow, either by game planning or lack of execution (team/player/coach/FO), the team has not been successful, down the stretch, when it matters to win games. By down the stretch I mean 3rd and 4th quarters.

Sure good offensive teams have a higher % of winning games down the stretch NE and Indi come to mind. But when we are facing an opponent, with strong offensive units, our defense needs the backing that for quite a few years, we have not been capable of. They seem to be always looking at the stars for help… ray:

There were few questions, in this research, I needed answered…

Q- Why should the Offensive unit get all the blame for the last 4 years?

Q- Now, is it the Offensive unit or the pieces of the unit that have issues, for the last few years?

Now after the research I noticed a trend that, IMO narrows down the next offensive problems to the current starting QB.

Q- Why with such a strong OL, average WR Corp, a Pro-bowl RB, an average QB and a strong defensive unit in 2002 did we only go 9-7, and faded again in December?

Q- Why is this team in 2003, offensively executing decently, the 1st half of games (1st -2nd quarters), but lack in execution in the 2nd half (3rd-4th quarters) of them as well?

Q- Why was this offensive unit executing the same way in 2002?

So why, can’t we break out of this 9-7, 10-6, 11-5 and Post Season-less (if that is a word) hump?

I don’t have a solution or an answer, because if I did, I would be writing “Get Rich Quick Schemes. I do have an opinion though, based on one lonely trend, he seems to be the cog that effects the wheels in the offense, and though I hate to say it, his initials are JF.

I did a small researched, using the last 2 years stats, to see why our offensive unit is inconsistent, and only used the QB that has been our starter for the last 2 years, at times beating great defenses, and struggling against poor ones. I was looking to answer those questions above.

I know that some of you don’t take the QBR as a good source of determining talent or skills. Well, it is not meant for that, but meant to be used in evaluating the PERFORMANCE OF THE QB period…

J Fielder had a QBR of 87.2%, in the 1st half of games, this past year (2003).

J Fiedler also had a QBR 56.4%, in the 2nd half of games, this past year (2003). Stats showed that K Stewart, was the only QB with a worst QBR (in the 2nd half), than him in the NFL this past year.

Well we can think that with 2002’s OL, the numbers should be a lot better that the numbers last year, but reality sinks in and still shows the same amount of variance between the 1st and 2nd half numbers.

His QBR in his 1st half of games 2002 was 99.8%, all 10 games started.
In his 2nd half of games, his QBR was 68.6% though better than 2003 stats, their still a large variance.
This OL did very well, giving JF very good QBR #s at the half. But, this variance of 30 points in both years, still show the trend, of his below average performance in the 2nd half, even with a solid OL.

I also looked to see if, their was significant difference before and after his thumb injury in 2002, while analyzing his 1st and 2nd half stats, and here is something that was definitely noticeable.
He had a very good performance, 106.9% QBR in the 1st half of the final 4 games in 2002, returning form injury, than in the 1st half of the 1st 6 games of that season.

But we lost the last 2 games in that month, why? His performance again went south, with a QBR in the 2nd half of those games, of 55.5%

That IMHO, tells me that JF feels pressure and flusters in the 2nd half of games, when opponents change game plans on him, he seems never really to move past that point and tries to do more than he physically can. I really think that, even if you would place him behind NE OL last year, they would have never had the same record, seeing how Brady rallied the team numerous times from the agony of defeat.

Bottom line, JF is not a QB that has shown a consistency to win down the stretch, the last 4 years IMO proves it, when our defense needs its backup, it keeps wishing upon a start… ray:

eace:

Theres no question that Jay Fiedler has been an inconsistent quarterback that saves his worst play for the 4th quarter and very big ball games. His playoff performances are among the worst ever played.

Sure the O-line took a dramatic downturn in 2003, but that doesn't alleviate all four years of Fiedler's play.

The fact is prior to this year this team hasn't really tried to bring in a serious upgrade to Fiedler, and at this point even this year is debatable. Griese was a washout in Denver, just as Fiedler has been here.

 

[Shula Fan]

So your bottom line is Jay sucks...we all knew that. He had four years to prove it.

 

[CrunchTime]

The poor showing in second halfs reflects more on other teams making the needed adjustments while our team does not.

 

[DolFinatic718]

The poor showing in second halfs reflects more on other teams making the needed adjustments while our team does not.

very good point. The phins play the same in the 1st half and 2nd half of games. I would love to see adjustments through out the game with the phins but that just isn't the case. Good teams make adjustments


How many times last year did everybody watching the game, listening to the game, and even commentators calling the game know what the phins were going to do? This team is too predictable, and I bet Fiedler haters will blame him for that too.

 

[Disnardo]

Your contradicting yourself. You said that Jay is inconsistent but you praise him for his first half of the season play. You say its the second half of the season where he falters. I bring up his injury and now you say its the second half of the games after his injury. Your confusing more people then just me here. For one, nobody is the same after an injury, and we never know how serious that injury is because all players want to play and mask pain. You are judging a man that comebacks to play 4 games at the end of the season after injury keeps him out atleast 5 games. Thats a long team to be out during a season, and most of that is without practicing or throwing the ball.

I like your posting, and I am sorry if I am confusing people. I am trying to make it simple and I again apologize for the confusion..

I meant to say that Jay performs differently in the same game. His performance is usually good in the 1st and 2 quarters of a game. Its in the 3rd and 4th quarters where he has had problems and causing his QBR to go down. Most other QBs perform their worst at the bginning and get better towards the end of the game, thats what I mean by his trend. Others have had good points that this inconsistancy may have had to do with coaching, game planning and such.

For example take his performance in the December NYJ game:

The first half score was Miami 20- Jets 10
At the end of the half, in the Jets-Miami game JF had a QBR of 126.3%.
At the of the game, stats from the 3rd -4th quarters only were a QBR of 63%.

Other QB's such as Brady and Delhomme, get better as the game goes on (in the 3rd-4th quarters), opposite to JF's stats.

And again I apologize for the confusion in the injury front. What I meant to say that after he came back from his injury he had better combined QBR stats in the first 2 quarters of his last 4 games (in December), than in those games before his injury.

In closing, I know that I am boring most of you with my rumblings, and their are others points that could be a better excuse than my points, and after reading them, QB might not be the most important area of needed improvement to our team. :)

 

[minus]

I like your posting, and I am sorry if I am confusing people. I am trying to make it simple and I again apologize for the confusion..

I meant to say that Jay performs differently in the same game. His performance is usually good in the 1st and 2 quarters of a game. Its in the 3rd and 4th quarters where he has had problems and causing his QBR to go down. Most other QBs perform their worst at the bginning and get better towards the end of the game, thats what I mean by his trend. Others have had good points that this inconsistancy may have had to do with coaching, game planning and such.

For example take his performance in the December NYJ game:

The first half score was Miami 20- Jets 10
At the end of the half, in the Jets-Miami game JF had a QBR of 126.3%.
At the of the game, stats from the 3rd -4th quarters only were a QBR of 63%.

Other QB's such as Brady and Delhomme, get better as the game goes on (in the 3rd-4th quarters), opposite to JF's stats.

And again I apologize for the confusion in the injury front. What I meant to say that after he came back from his injury he had better combined QBR stats in the first 2 quarters of his last 4 games (in December), than in those games before his injury.

In closing, I know that I am boring most of you with my rumblings, and their are others points that could be a better excuse than my points, and after reading them, QB might not be the most important area of needed improvement to our team. :)

I'm glad you saw the light.

 

[BlueFin]

I like your posting, and I am sorry if I am confusing people. I am trying to make it simple and I again apologize for the confusion..

I meant to say that Jay performs differently in the same game. His performance is usually good in the 1st and 2 quarters of a game. Its in the 3rd and 4th quarters where he has had problems and causing his QBR to go down. Most other QBs perform their worst at the bginning and get better towards the end of the game, thats what I mean by his trend. Others have had good points that this inconsistancy may have had to do with coaching, game planning and such.

For example take his performance in the December NYJ game:

The first half score was Miami 20- Jets 10
At the end of the half, in the Jets-Miami game JF had a QBR of 126.3%.
At the of the game, stats from the 3rd -4th quarters only were a QBR of 63%.

Other QB's such as Brady and Delhomme, get better as the game goes on (in the 3rd-4th quarters), opposite to JF's stats.

And again I apologize for the confusion in the injury front. What I meant to say that after he came back from his injury he had better combined QBR stats in the first 2 quarters of his last 4 games (in December), than in those games before his injury.

In closing, I know that I am boring most of you with my rumblings, and their are others points that could be a better excuse than my points, and after reading them, QB might not be the most important area of needed improvement to our team. :)

Don't back off your point because the Fiedler apologists appeared in mass, the single most important position on a team is Quarterback, that doesn't mean the rest of the team doesn't matter, but without consistency at quarterback the chances of a team getting anywhere are miniscule.

To quote John Madden "Jay Fiedler is just not an accurate quarterback"

 

[DolFinatic718]

Don't back off your point because the Fiedler apologists appeared in mass, the single most important position on a team is Quarterback, that doesn't mean the rest of the team doesn't matter, but without consistency at quarterback the chances of a team getting anywhere are miniscule.

To quote John Madden "Jay Fiedler is just not an accurate quarterback"

Niether are alot of pro Qb's. And Qb is not the single most important aspect of a team, depends on what team your talking about

 

[Disnardo]

Don't back off your point because the Fiedler apologists appeared in mass, the single most important position on a team is Quarterback, that doesn't mean the rest of the team doesn't matter, but without consistency at quarterback the chances of a team getting anywhere are miniscule.

To quote John Madden "Jay Fiedler is just not an accurate quarterback"

Thanks, for the backup :) , but "I did not backed off my point."
I just took a neutral position with my post closing statement. I just stated that were other points of views. Those words in bold below, does not say that I totally agree with their point of view, but that I agree that they have their point of view...

In closing, I know that I am boring most of you with my rumblings, and their are others points that could be a better excuse than my points, and after reading them, QB might not be the most important area of needed improvement to our team.