Kiper expounds on criticisms of Pat White, Patrick Turner
- Thread starter BAMAPHIN 22
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X-Pacolypse
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Mayock loves our picks, while Kiper hates them. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.
ArmyFin7
U cry about the $$$, we do the dirtywork
If Kiper really knew what he was doing don't you think he'd actually work in the NFL instead of just blasting those who do???
McGaniel
Club Member
Kiper does this sh** for publicity
juniorseau55
Go Fins
Mel Kiper was off in this draft as always. I think the whole world knows that if Pat White does not pan out for us then it will be a bad pick. I think Pat white has better vision out in the field than people give him credit for.
BAMAPHIN 22
FinHeaven Elite
Great point... You would think that with his vast array of knowledge... Some team would have hired him as a NFL scout?
ArmyFin7
U cry about the $$$, we do the dirtywork
I don't think the Wildcat is here to stay....I think it was only the beginning. I think you are going to see us experiment with the spread formation. Before you flame me,
2 years ago when the pats went 18-DOH! I was watching them play Baltimore. Baltimores crazy schbeme where you have no idea whos coming on the blitz had the Pats completely shut down in the first half. After half time the pats took almost every snap from the gun with 4 and 5 wide recievers. It totally negated the main strength of the Baltimore D. They had to pull a lb to sub in another corner and had safety lined up one on one with a reciever. The Pats ended up winning it obviously.
Point is, call me crazy but I think we're going to see the phins try it this yr. Not as a regular offense but i could see us using several sets. I have talked to many people who have watched and coached football for years. Nobody can come up with a real reason why it wouldn't work. If someone can come up with a reason why we couldn't do it, I would like to know.
2 years ago when the pats went 18-DOH! I was watching them play Baltimore. Baltimores crazy schbeme where you have no idea whos coming on the blitz had the Pats completely shut down in the first half. After half time the pats took almost every snap from the gun with 4 and 5 wide recievers. It totally negated the main strength of the Baltimore D. They had to pull a lb to sub in another corner and had safety lined up one on one with a reciever. The Pats ended up winning it obviously.
Point is, call me crazy but I think we're going to see the phins try it this yr. Not as a regular offense but i could see us using several sets. I have talked to many people who have watched and coached football for years. Nobody can come up with a real reason why it wouldn't work. If someone can come up with a reason why we couldn't do it, I would like to know.
Noodle Arm
FinHeaven VIP
Isn't this about the time ESPN sticks Kiper back in the freezer so they can thaw him out 10 months from now for next years draft?
Even Kiper doesn't know how White will be used so how the hell can he be critical of the pick in the first place? He even says that the pick will be good if White is used as a WR and returner.
Are we talking about this particular savvy evaluator of talent?
excerpted from Florio/ PFT:
A league source has found and forwarded to us Mel Kiper’s grades from the 2005 draft.
History proves that Mel’s effort as to some teams deserves an F-minus.
Here’s what Mel said regarding the Bengals, in giving them an A-minus grade: “Defensive end David Pollack and linebacker Odell Thurman were teammates at Georgia and are immediate upgrades for the front seven on Marvin Lewis’ defense. The Bengals helped the offensive line with another pair of teammates, center Eric Ghiaciuc and tackle Adam Kieft from Central Michigan, and thanks to his great physical attributes receiver Chris Henry is a good gamble in the third round despite some character questions. Fellow wideout Tab Perry was a sensible pick in the sixth.”
Pollack was limited to one season, due to injury. Thurman was limited to one season, due to an inability to avoid substances of abuse. Henry turned out to be anything but a “good gamble.” Ghiaciuc remains unsigned after the expiration of his rookie deal. Kieft didn’t appear in a single game in two seasons and wasn’t tendered as a restricted free agent. Perry also left the Bengals after three seasons, with no RFA tender offer. He signed a one-year deal with the Dolphins, suffered a season-ending injury four days later, landed on injured reserve, and currently is unsigned and unemployed.
The Vikings got a B-plus, with this explanation: “The Vikings targeted speed on their board and they definitely got it with wide receiver Troy Williamson, who wowed Minnesota enough that the Vikings passed on Mike Williams. Defensive end Erasmus James gives them much-needed help up front, guard-tackle Marcus Johnson will solidify the offensive line and running back Ciatrick Fason has the potential to be a terrific steal in the fourth round. Dustin Fox is a good cornerback and defensive tackle C.J. Mosley is a motivated overachiever.”
Um, in hindsight, the effort should be given an F-minus. Williamson was a colossal bust, as was James. Fason, the guy who could have been a “terrific steal,” was taken two spots after Brandon Jacobs and three after Marion Barber. Fason is long gone — the other two became stars. (And when Fason was drafted, Darren Sproles was still on the board.) When Marcus Johnson left Minnesota for Oakland recently, it left the Vikings without a single member of the Class of 2005 on the roster.
Mel also gave a couple of teams lower grades than what they should have received. Here’s how he supported giving a C to the Patriots: “Guard Logan Mankins was a reach in the first round but the Patriots obviously like his size and nastiness, and he will help fill the void left by Joe Andruzzi’s departure via free agency. Ellis Hobbs has good size but not enough skill to be more than a nickel back, and safety James Sanders was a teammate of Mankins at Fresno State and both were helped by the relationship between Patriots coach Bill Belichick and Fresno State coach Pat Hill. Tackle Nick Kaczur could play guard as well but came off the board a little early and Matt Cassel is a big project at quarterback.”
Mankins, the “reach” in round one, has started every game in his career and has become an anchor of the offensive line. Kaczur has likewise been solid. And to the extent that Cassel was a “big project,” he turned out a lot better than Peter Brady’s volcano.
Mel’s biggest blunder might have been his assessment of the Bolts. He gave the Chargers a C for what still could become a ‘74 Steelers type of draft: “I like end/linebacker Shawne Merriman as an addition to the pass rush, but the rest of the players the Chargers selected were taken a little early. Defensive tackle Luis Castillo did not have a first-round grade and receiver Vincent Jackson was a reach in the second round as the Chargers were desperate to add a receiver. Darren Sproles should be a nice situational back who can also return kicks, but the remainder of the players San Diego took were more toward the undrafted free-agent category.”
Um, Merriman has been one of the best players from a bust-filled 2005 first round, and Castillo has become a very good defensive lineman. Jackson is developing into an excellent option in San Diego’s supercharged passing game, and Sproles has shown that he’s much more than a “nice situational back,” as that franchise tag confirms.
excerpted from Florio/ PFT:
A league source has found and forwarded to us Mel Kiper’s grades from the 2005 draft.
History proves that Mel’s effort as to some teams deserves an F-minus.
Here’s what Mel said regarding the Bengals, in giving them an A-minus grade: “Defensive end David Pollack and linebacker Odell Thurman were teammates at Georgia and are immediate upgrades for the front seven on Marvin Lewis’ defense. The Bengals helped the offensive line with another pair of teammates, center Eric Ghiaciuc and tackle Adam Kieft from Central Michigan, and thanks to his great physical attributes receiver Chris Henry is a good gamble in the third round despite some character questions. Fellow wideout Tab Perry was a sensible pick in the sixth.”
Pollack was limited to one season, due to injury. Thurman was limited to one season, due to an inability to avoid substances of abuse. Henry turned out to be anything but a “good gamble.” Ghiaciuc remains unsigned after the expiration of his rookie deal. Kieft didn’t appear in a single game in two seasons and wasn’t tendered as a restricted free agent. Perry also left the Bengals after three seasons, with no RFA tender offer. He signed a one-year deal with the Dolphins, suffered a season-ending injury four days later, landed on injured reserve, and currently is unsigned and unemployed.
The Vikings got a B-plus, with this explanation: “The Vikings targeted speed on their board and they definitely got it with wide receiver Troy Williamson, who wowed Minnesota enough that the Vikings passed on Mike Williams. Defensive end Erasmus James gives them much-needed help up front, guard-tackle Marcus Johnson will solidify the offensive line and running back Ciatrick Fason has the potential to be a terrific steal in the fourth round. Dustin Fox is a good cornerback and defensive tackle C.J. Mosley is a motivated overachiever.”
Um, in hindsight, the effort should be given an F-minus. Williamson was a colossal bust, as was James. Fason, the guy who could have been a “terrific steal,” was taken two spots after Brandon Jacobs and three after Marion Barber. Fason is long gone — the other two became stars. (And when Fason was drafted, Darren Sproles was still on the board.) When Marcus Johnson left Minnesota for Oakland recently, it left the Vikings without a single member of the Class of 2005 on the roster.
Mel also gave a couple of teams lower grades than what they should have received. Here’s how he supported giving a C to the Patriots: “Guard Logan Mankins was a reach in the first round but the Patriots obviously like his size and nastiness, and he will help fill the void left by Joe Andruzzi’s departure via free agency. Ellis Hobbs has good size but not enough skill to be more than a nickel back, and safety James Sanders was a teammate of Mankins at Fresno State and both were helped by the relationship between Patriots coach Bill Belichick and Fresno State coach Pat Hill. Tackle Nick Kaczur could play guard as well but came off the board a little early and Matt Cassel is a big project at quarterback.”
Mankins, the “reach” in round one, has started every game in his career and has become an anchor of the offensive line. Kaczur has likewise been solid. And to the extent that Cassel was a “big project,” he turned out a lot better than Peter Brady’s volcano.
Mel’s biggest blunder might have been his assessment of the Bolts. He gave the Chargers a C for what still could become a ‘74 Steelers type of draft: “I like end/linebacker Shawne Merriman as an addition to the pass rush, but the rest of the players the Chargers selected were taken a little early. Defensive tackle Luis Castillo did not have a first-round grade and receiver Vincent Jackson was a reach in the second round as the Chargers were desperate to add a receiver. Darren Sproles should be a nice situational back who can also return kicks, but the remainder of the players San Diego took were more toward the undrafted free-agent category.”
Um, Merriman has been one of the best players from a bust-filled 2005 first round, and Castillo has become a very good defensive lineman. Jackson is developing into an excellent option in San Diego’s supercharged passing game, and Sproles has shown that he’s much more than a “nice situational back,” as that franchise tag confirms.
biggiesmalls3k1
How Bout Them Fins?!
Everyone has different opinions when it comes to White and Turner and our entire draft...Mike Mayock loved it, and he was right about Matt Ryan, but so was Kiper...I think he's still bitter about us passing up Ryan and taking Jake, even to this day after Jake made the Pro Bowl and only allowed 3 sacks the entire season, the last couple games on a bad ankle...
All I could say is that our FO loves guys with proven productivity at the college level...Pat White was the ultimate winner at WVU, he started and won 4 bowl games, produced on the ground and through the air...he adds another dimension to our offense which we needed, the guy is simply a threat to make a big play every time he touches the ball, just that threat is enough for any Defensive Coordinator in the NFL to start sweating...the Wildcat with him in control, R&R in the backfield, and Ginn going deep? Why is this a bad pick again??
As far as Turner, the kid produced the last two years at another major program...he is exactly what we need at wideout, big, physical, and a threat in the redzone...if he can run the slant, Pennington will LOVE his big target...
I know alot of people are crying and moaning about the draft, our FO executed their plan perfectly last year and we all had questions, try to give them the benefit of the doubt here...this was their plan this year, they took us from laughing stock to division champs with their draft last year, and we all agreed that we needed skill position players this year, they get them and we still complain...seriously??
Point Blank, who cares what Kiper or Mayock or anyone has to say, these guys are doing their homework...even God Kiper is wrong every year...if i remember correctly he loved Ryan Freakin Leaf...
All I could say is that our FO loves guys with proven productivity at the college level...Pat White was the ultimate winner at WVU, he started and won 4 bowl games, produced on the ground and through the air...he adds another dimension to our offense which we needed, the guy is simply a threat to make a big play every time he touches the ball, just that threat is enough for any Defensive Coordinator in the NFL to start sweating...the Wildcat with him in control, R&R in the backfield, and Ginn going deep? Why is this a bad pick again??
As far as Turner, the kid produced the last two years at another major program...he is exactly what we need at wideout, big, physical, and a threat in the redzone...if he can run the slant, Pennington will LOVE his big target...
I know alot of people are crying and moaning about the draft, our FO executed their plan perfectly last year and we all had questions, try to give them the benefit of the doubt here...this was their plan this year, they took us from laughing stock to division champs with their draft last year, and we all agreed that we needed skill position players this year, they get them and we still complain...seriously??
Point Blank, who cares what Kiper or Mayock or anyone has to say, these guys are doing their homework...even God Kiper is wrong every year...if i remember correctly he loved Ryan Freakin Leaf...
Further BS from Kiper in the same article:
To summarize:
He didn't have Turner being drafted which translates to it being a bad pick. He also grades the draft as a C- despite it being the end of April and having no idea what will actually happen. But then he decides that if Davis, White and Smith develop into guys who can play, the draft grade then goes up.
Because you know, there actually is no such thing as a draft grade NOW. Because NOW games are not being played. But hey, his analysis of the Phins draft might improve to an A or B if those guys show they can play. It's like he's making a prediction now but then saying his prediction can change in the future once what he thinks could happen, will happen, which essentially makes it seem like his criti....oh who gives a **** anymore.
To summarize:
He didn't have Turner being drafted which translates to it being a bad pick. He also grades the draft as a C- despite it being the end of April and having no idea what will actually happen. But then he decides that if Davis, White and Smith develop into guys who can play, the draft grade then goes up.
Because you know, there actually is no such thing as a draft grade NOW. Because NOW games are not being played. But hey, his analysis of the Phins draft might improve to an A or B if those guys show they can play. It's like he's making a prediction now but then saying his prediction can change in the future once what he thinks could happen, will happen, which essentially makes it seem like his criti....oh who gives a **** anymore.
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