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Marino, Plaschke around the horn comments

I think we should refrain from handing that kind of accolade to a guy who just has a hot hand at the moment. I've seen the same things you have Trekbiz but I've also seen other QBs do that too...and Peyton has a big advantage over other guys. He's had the same cast, a TALENTED cast, surrounding him for like 3 years. Reggie Wayne is like in his 3rd NFL season I believe, and Marvin Harrison has been working with Manning forever, so has Edgerrin James and a lot of the offensive line (including and perhaps most importantly his LT). And perhaps most important of all his OC has been the same for a long long time and molds his offense around the way Peyton audibles (which 75% of the time is a fake audible). New WRs like Stokley when brought into the system have the advantage that everyone around them is very use to the system and Peyton Manning, helps them learn quicker. I don't know exactly who I've seen better at reading defenses but I surely believe that guys like Young, Montana, Aikman, etc need to be up there too. Heck right now, Brady deserves a good mention up there and so does McNair.

Marino was definitely a MASTER of reading defenses. Consistently called so during the time that he played. SMadison29 has the right of it, Marino was stripped of his audibles because of the surrounding cast plus the fact that it didn't give him control over the pass/run mixture which he needed/wanted to get control of to finally give the Dolphins a running game. He was trying to manufacture a running game out of chicken **** so an OC needs pretty much full control to do that. It was also a way of letting Marino know who is in control...their continually clashing egos probably had a big part.
 
The reason I think that rafael thinks Marino was not good at reading defenses is because late in his career it was widely known that the zone blitz was like a Marino killer. He threw a couple of picks right into the hands of defensive linemen on zone blitzes.

But thats what a zone blitz is designed to do and every QB has done that and more of the reason why Marino was killed by the zone blitz was because he was absolutely positively immobile and was a sitting duck to get hit. Even so Marino still had success throwing the ball right up until his last year in the NFL when his stats were horribly marred by his pinched nerve and subsequent rushing back too early (accounted for 7 picks in merely 2 games...the new england game he left the game in, and the cowboys game he rushed back too early in).
 
First of all I watched Marino his whole career. I even started following him his last two seasons at Pitt. He is easily my favorite athlete ever and the only guy who I ever wanted to get an autograph from. This doesn't mean I think he was the best at everything. Marino wasn't great at reading defenses in college and he had one of the lowest scores on the Wonderlich test. These two factors made people question his intelligence. It was one of the things that hurt his draft status (along with the drug rumors and his sub-par senior year). I've spoken to Dan on several occasions and he is simply not that smart a guy. He is genuine and has good common sense but isn't brilliant. When he was tearing up defenses in the early '80s, he didn't do it by always throwing it to the open guy. He did it by completing the pass to people that were covered. That's what made him amazing. It didn't matter what you did, what coverage you had b/c he still beat you. That's why you'd always hear the announcers say "only Marino could have completed that pass". The unspoken part was that no other QB would/could attempt that pass b/c the guy was covered.

Did you ever notice how Dan never looked at the RB during his play-action fakes? Have you ever asked Marino why he didn't work on his play-action fakes to make them more convincing? I did. He said that he felt he needed the extra time to read the defense.

Yes CK, you're right that Dan had trouble with the zone blitz, but I don't think it was just b/c of his limited mobility. The zone blitz requires you to make multiple reads quickly. When Dan started it was simple. You just threw it to the area the blitz came from. If you had a quick enough release you could beat it every time. With the zone blitz you have to be better at reading the D while under pressure from the unexpected rusher (its not always a true blitz). Dan struggled b/c he wasn't great at reading defenses.

In his final years, he had lost some of the zip on his passes. It was still way better than most QBs, but Dan still tried to complete the same passes to the covered guys he was used to throwing to. This was why his interceptions ballooned late in his career.
 
Originally posted by Ross
Yup, JJ must be God.

I think he stripped him of the audibles because Marino always wanted to check out of the run to throw.

JJ always wanted him to do it the other way...

--Ross
Click to expand...

That's what I remember too. Dan always wanted to throw, and if he saw something that he didn't like, he immediately and consistently went to a pass. HAHA, burned JJ to no end. Plus sometimes, i think Danny would audible to the wrong side in his last 2-3 years and would get picked alot from an audible.
 
Nobody would have minded if Dan had audibled and was successful. The fact is that his audibles weren't successful. You could argue that it was always the fault of his supporting cast, but many times they were just bad reads.
 
Duper and Clayton gone, Marino could not use his arm alone. He let it rip for big plays with those great players. Not to say Dan was no great, he made those WR great and complimented their games.
Marino had the release and the arm, in college Pitt ran and played D with two future all pro great OLB's Ricky Jackson and Hugh Green.
Teams did not see his style, and he played in colder weather for conservative calls as well. Credit Shula for opening up, changing his own style after Marino played his run heavy style in college. Less Griese -Woodley, more Strock pocket passing. What made him great was that if you KNEW you had the cover and started going halfspeed to the doubled man he would beat you down like a scout squad crew. You had to get right on the WR, and once you did it opened space for others.
Marino could not read a D? Three great pass catch TEs, Tony Nathan, and 3 terrifc WR, lots of players to read and he did it. Dwight Stephenson helped give him time, but when you KNEW people had to honor you arm and you played to each player's strentghs on the pass (Bombs to Duper, Air to Clayton for leaps, Bullets over the middle for yards after, leading recievers at the right time so they did not get gunshy from over throws, etc).

Face it, the talent was less with JJ especially the run game. The O line was not same either he seemed to want a big zoneblock line and Shula had been a finesse/technique guy. The late Shula phins were all finesse, JJ tried to make it a bludgeon.
You never give Apes surgical scalpels, and JJ is living proof. Marino went from a the tough gutsy on the money guy to a sitting duck when he took a beating behind bad lines. Dan when healthy was Adonis, you could take a pic from any part of his throwing motion and it would be textbook material. Jimmy wanted to go play pass/vertical with no star Rb (especially as a pass catch/pressure relief) and no true deep threat. Teams loaded up on the play pass as a result and knew the medium pass was all he really had per down.
Why respect the run when the run game was a nonfactor? Time of possession was more important to Jimmy than percentage completed, yards per attempt, or any efficiency numbers. Asking Dan to resume college style was a crime. If anything the should spread the field more and thrown west coast control stuff. Similar to what Gannon did last year. Less speed more spread. Dan could pull it off.
This fan wanted to see it open up like a K Gun, 3 wr, one rb, shotgun and 3 step stuff. JJ wanted to use the Cowoby formula with less overall talent. Too much pressure on Marino with that. A system geared to all passing was what he deserved. He could have put up numbers like Gannon did his MVP season, accurate passes, few deep passes, lots of dink and dunk. Marino would have made that style work.
It would have been fitting way to stay true to the pass for the greatest East QB ever. This fan was hella mad that JJ tried to make him Mr.Handoff. When you audible, and the talent is limited, teams know what is coming per play. Marino had no options, team loaded up and dared him to win, that eats at a guy who is arguably the greatest downfield artist of all time. Knowing you would eat it up in your prime and with better skill help.

Maybe Dan can make the magic work! The guy is a big name person, whose skill is to EVALUATE the QB! The one thing needed! It has to be the reason he was brought in!
 
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