FearTheBeard
FearTheBurke
What are your views on the aggies TE. Hes my personal favorite TE and has an amazing frame at 6'8" and is likely the best blocking TE in the draft. I'd target him with 2b if he falls past the Bills. Thoughts?
Martellus Bennett?
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Phinfan31
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I think we're very fortunate this draft because while there aren't any truly elite TE prospects, there are tonne of good prospects, including Bennett. I think CK and Boomer like him a lot too.
Personally, the two that I favore are Jermichael Finley and John Carlson, as those are the two most natural catchers out there. Carlson is undoubtedly the best catcher overall and the best catcher while being closely guarded. Finley is just a shade behind but has phenomenal physical ability. I dont' care what he timed, the dude is fast as blazes in pads and definitely has deep speed. Plus, Finley is very hard to take down by 1 guy, and makes a lot of yards after the catch. Both are nice big red-zone targets for whomever of the unprovens emerges as our QB.
Back to Bennett, he's been mostly a blocker at TA&M, but he was quite good at it. He also looks decent as a receiver, but I certainly wouldn't put his receiving in the class with Carlson and Finley. Bennett needs to show more ability to pluck the ball rather than body catch or cradle it. He's going to be covered by some phenomenal athletes in the NFL, and most of what I've seen from him at A&M are catches where he was wiiiiiiiiiiiiide open. I'd hope any NFL TE can catch those. But if he uses his big body and long arms to pluck the ball consistently, then he might become a real gem for someone. He certainly has the body for it.
Personally, the two that I favore are Jermichael Finley and John Carlson, as those are the two most natural catchers out there. Carlson is undoubtedly the best catcher overall and the best catcher while being closely guarded. Finley is just a shade behind but has phenomenal physical ability. I dont' care what he timed, the dude is fast as blazes in pads and definitely has deep speed. Plus, Finley is very hard to take down by 1 guy, and makes a lot of yards after the catch. Both are nice big red-zone targets for whomever of the unprovens emerges as our QB.
Back to Bennett, he's been mostly a blocker at TA&M, but he was quite good at it. He also looks decent as a receiver, but I certainly wouldn't put his receiving in the class with Carlson and Finley. Bennett needs to show more ability to pluck the ball rather than body catch or cradle it. He's going to be covered by some phenomenal athletes in the NFL, and most of what I've seen from him at A&M are catches where he was wiiiiiiiiiiiiide open. I'd hope any NFL TE can catch those. But if he uses his big body and long arms to pluck the ball consistently, then he might become a real gem for someone. He certainly has the body for it.
girthvader44
Starter
Im a Horns and BIG12 fan, and pretty familiar with this beast. He is a monster, and has some pretty decent hands and athleticism. Was a big time BB player in Texas, and highly recruited for both sports. Anybody remember Troy Drayton, seems similar from speed, blocking, hands combination although Bennett is about 3-4 inches taller. I really like Bennett, has some attitude too. We sure could use that after the David Martin experience
I also like Finley from UT, and believe the Fins have shown interest. Not sure he fits the "Parcells" TE mold today, he is not a fan of blocking, but that may be because he was in a high octane offense that wanted him in routes. Finley has a frame that can be built on, and has very good hands. I thought he was highly underused at Texas. Improved his measurables considerably at his pro day
I would love to see either in the late second or third round
-GV
I also like Finley from UT, and believe the Fins have shown interest. Not sure he fits the "Parcells" TE mold today, he is not a fan of blocking, but that may be because he was in a high octane offense that wanted him in routes. Finley has a frame that can be built on, and has very good hands. I thought he was highly underused at Texas. Improved his measurables considerably at his pro day
I would love to see either in the late second or third round
-GV
ckparrothead
Premium Member
After watching a lot more of the Tight Ends, I can't help but wonder if Kellen Davis is the best Tight End in this draft. Certainly not the most proven, but neither is Martellus Bennett. If you want the most proven guy then that would probably be Fred Davis...maybe Dustin Keller or Martin Rucker...but, I don't know. The more I look into it, the more tape I watch, the more I like Kellen Davis.
Here are some 2007 production numbers for ya:
Martin Rucker - 84 catches, 834 yards, 8 TDs
Fred Davis - 62 catches, 881 yards, 8 TDs
Dustin Keller - 68 catches, 881 yards, 7 TDs
Kellen Davis - 32 catches, 513 yards, 6 TDs
Martellus Bennett - 49 catches, 587 yards, 4 TDs
Jermichael Finley - 45 catches, 575 yards, 2 TDs
John Carlson - 40 catches, 372 yards, 3 TDs
We can look at this another way, as I think YPC is pretty important in the evaluation. Also, Catches per TD.
Kellen Davis - 16.0 YPC, 5.3 C/TD
Fred Davis - 14.2 YPC, 7.8 C/TD
Dustin Keller - 13.0 YPC, 9.7 C/TD
Martellus Bennett - 12.0 YPC, 12.3 C/TD
Martin Rucker - 9.9 YPC, 10.5 C/TD
Jermichael Finley - 12.8 YPC, 22.5 C/TD
John Carlson - 9.3 YPC, 13.3 C/TD
Then you also want to know how dominant the player was within his offense. You look at the player's number of catches as a percentage of pass attempts, the player's yardage as a percentage of passing yardage, and the player's TDs as a percentage of Pass TDs.
Martellus Bennett - 13.9% C/PA, 25.4% Y/PY, 30.8% TD/PTD
Fred Davis - 13.6% C/PA, 28.8% Y/PY, 26.7% TD/PTD
Dustin Keller - 11.4% C/PA, 22.1% Y/PY, 26.7% TD/PTD
Martin Rucker - 14.4% C/PA, 19.0% Y/PY, 23.5% TD/PTD
Kellen Davis - 8.2% C/PA, 18.1% Y/PY, 28.6% TD/PTD
Jermichael Finley - 11.1% C/PA, 19.0% Y/PY, 10.0% TD/PTD
John Carlson - 10.3% C/PA, 18.6% Y/PY, 25.0% TD/PTD
Using a crude ranking and rating system, with the three categories above leading into a total production and quality rating, you get the following...
1. Fred Davis - 5
2. Dustin Keller - 9
3. Martellus Bennett - 9
4. Martin Rucker - 9
5. Kellen Davis - 11
6. Jermichael Finley - 18
7. John Carlson - 21
I think that describes really well what is going on between the players' respective seasons. For as much as Kellen Davis gets knocked for not living up to his billing, the guy's production in 2007 was right there with Rucker, Bennett and even Keller, when you consider the quality of the production. Fred Davis blows them all away and that is why you see many people having Davis as the #1 TE in the class.
I've looked a lot more closely at this position a few weeks now...and I don't know if Kellen Davis isn't the #1 TE in this class. His coaches couldn't figure out whether they wanted him to be a DE or a TE. They had him playing ironman football, literally, to where I'm QUITE positive his snap counts relative to the other players is like 30% higher. He was tired, during the games...it's clear. You have a guy playing TE for nearly every snap, and then you turn around and have him play 30% of the defensive snaps as a pass rusher on obvious passing downs? The guy was tired during games and you could tell if you watched the games. But, he's tall, he gets down the field VERY quickly, he has good quality ups and probably the strongest set of hands catching in the entire TE draft. He blocks really well.
Here are some 2007 production numbers for ya:
Martin Rucker - 84 catches, 834 yards, 8 TDs
Fred Davis - 62 catches, 881 yards, 8 TDs
Dustin Keller - 68 catches, 881 yards, 7 TDs
Kellen Davis - 32 catches, 513 yards, 6 TDs
Martellus Bennett - 49 catches, 587 yards, 4 TDs
Jermichael Finley - 45 catches, 575 yards, 2 TDs
John Carlson - 40 catches, 372 yards, 3 TDs
We can look at this another way, as I think YPC is pretty important in the evaluation. Also, Catches per TD.
Kellen Davis - 16.0 YPC, 5.3 C/TD
Fred Davis - 14.2 YPC, 7.8 C/TD
Dustin Keller - 13.0 YPC, 9.7 C/TD
Martellus Bennett - 12.0 YPC, 12.3 C/TD
Martin Rucker - 9.9 YPC, 10.5 C/TD
Jermichael Finley - 12.8 YPC, 22.5 C/TD
John Carlson - 9.3 YPC, 13.3 C/TD
Then you also want to know how dominant the player was within his offense. You look at the player's number of catches as a percentage of pass attempts, the player's yardage as a percentage of passing yardage, and the player's TDs as a percentage of Pass TDs.
Martellus Bennett - 13.9% C/PA, 25.4% Y/PY, 30.8% TD/PTD
Fred Davis - 13.6% C/PA, 28.8% Y/PY, 26.7% TD/PTD
Dustin Keller - 11.4% C/PA, 22.1% Y/PY, 26.7% TD/PTD
Martin Rucker - 14.4% C/PA, 19.0% Y/PY, 23.5% TD/PTD
Kellen Davis - 8.2% C/PA, 18.1% Y/PY, 28.6% TD/PTD
Jermichael Finley - 11.1% C/PA, 19.0% Y/PY, 10.0% TD/PTD
John Carlson - 10.3% C/PA, 18.6% Y/PY, 25.0% TD/PTD
Using a crude ranking and rating system, with the three categories above leading into a total production and quality rating, you get the following...
1. Fred Davis - 5
2. Dustin Keller - 9
3. Martellus Bennett - 9
4. Martin Rucker - 9
5. Kellen Davis - 11
6. Jermichael Finley - 18
7. John Carlson - 21
I think that describes really well what is going on between the players' respective seasons. For as much as Kellen Davis gets knocked for not living up to his billing, the guy's production in 2007 was right there with Rucker, Bennett and even Keller, when you consider the quality of the production. Fred Davis blows them all away and that is why you see many people having Davis as the #1 TE in the class.
I've looked a lot more closely at this position a few weeks now...and I don't know if Kellen Davis isn't the #1 TE in this class. His coaches couldn't figure out whether they wanted him to be a DE or a TE. They had him playing ironman football, literally, to where I'm QUITE positive his snap counts relative to the other players is like 30% higher. He was tired, during the games...it's clear. You have a guy playing TE for nearly every snap, and then you turn around and have him play 30% of the defensive snaps as a pass rusher on obvious passing downs? The guy was tired during games and you could tell if you watched the games. But, he's tall, he gets down the field VERY quickly, he has good quality ups and probably the strongest set of hands catching in the entire TE draft. He blocks really well.
Blackocrates
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The Dolphins definitely have a good chance of grabbing a nice TE in this draft. I just wonder who they're looking at?
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Kellen Davis and Jermichael Finley, IMO. I've heard they have interest in both.
I've recently bumped Kellen Davis to #1 TE on my board, Fred Davis #2, Dustin Keller #3, Martellus Bennett #4, Brad Cottam #5, Jermichael Finley #6, John Carlson #7, Martin Rucker #8.
I've recently bumped Kellen Davis to #1 TE on my board, Fred Davis #2, Dustin Keller #3, Martellus Bennett #4, Brad Cottam #5, Jermichael Finley #6, John Carlson #7, Martin Rucker #8.
So Kellen Davis is a better Te then De after all?
I think he is a good enough athlete to play either position, but he will be long gone before we get a chance at him.
Bennet on the other hand, has that gold standard for Te in the NFL, he played big time College Basket Ball ala Antonio Gates.
CK, any thoughts on William and Mary's Atchison? He has the size and the speed, but he is inexperienced, but played more then Cottam (2 yrs at W&M)
I think he is a good enough athlete to play either position, but he will be long gone before we get a chance at him.
Bennet on the other hand, has that gold standard for Te in the NFL, he played big time College Basket Ball ala Antonio Gates.
CK, any thoughts on William and Mary's Atchison? He has the size and the speed, but he is inexperienced, but played more then Cottam (2 yrs at W&M)
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Never watched Atchison play ball. Don't know enough about him. He's definitely on radar as a sleeper, which means he's not much of a sleeper at all, really.
Kellen is a more proven TE than DE. He shows promise as a DE but honestly, there are way more proven DEs out there. Right now if you just take him as a TE he could be the best TE in this class, a good class I might add...so why roll the dice on him as a DE when you'd only want to take a prospect like that maybe in the fourth round?
Keep him at TE. Let him settle there. He's got great athleticism, tied for the fastest 10 yard split among the TEs, tied for the second fastest 20 yard split...extremely strong hands...good blocking ability...great in the red zone converting TDs...big play guy (highest YPC among TEs). If they didn't keep insisting on using him at DE on passing downs, he could have gained a lot more yardage. He looked visibly tired from the over-use. You need a good bit of rest in between when your number gets called and there were too many occasions when the offense would be off the field, the other team would go into passing downs for like three downs in a row, Davis would be in there either as a DE or even as a DT, they'd punt or have a turnover, and then Davis has to be back out there on offense a play later expected to make heavy blocks or get open on a corner route.
No iron man football. Not if you expect to have a good player for four quarters, instead of a good player for two quarters.
Kellen is a more proven TE than DE. He shows promise as a DE but honestly, there are way more proven DEs out there. Right now if you just take him as a TE he could be the best TE in this class, a good class I might add...so why roll the dice on him as a DE when you'd only want to take a prospect like that maybe in the fourth round?
Keep him at TE. Let him settle there. He's got great athleticism, tied for the fastest 10 yard split among the TEs, tied for the second fastest 20 yard split...extremely strong hands...good blocking ability...great in the red zone converting TDs...big play guy (highest YPC among TEs). If they didn't keep insisting on using him at DE on passing downs, he could have gained a lot more yardage. He looked visibly tired from the over-use. You need a good bit of rest in between when your number gets called and there were too many occasions when the offense would be off the field, the other team would go into passing downs for like three downs in a row, Davis would be in there either as a DE or even as a DT, they'd punt or have a turnover, and then Davis has to be back out there on offense a play later expected to make heavy blocks or get open on a corner route.
No iron man football. Not if you expect to have a good player for four quarters, instead of a good player for two quarters.