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Merged:Dolphins Playing Hardball With Ogun/More Warner/Collins rumors

More Collins/Warner to Miami Reports

Actually I shouldn't call it a report since it's from PFT...but seriously is this not the same stuff we posted last night?

In the wake of a minicamp in which newcomer A.J. Feely failed to make good on owner Wayne Huizenga's prediction that he's the second coming of Dan Marino, there are rumblings in Dolphins land that the team might pursue Kerry Collins or Kurt Warner.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

I really think they come on this board and read our posts, I mean every time they post something I always see it has been discussed on this board. But this part is definitely interesting.

Implicitly, such sentiments are also a swipe at incumbent Jay Fiedler. The Sun-Sentinel reports that he's the clear-cut No. 1 guy for now, but Collins or Warner wouldn't be signed for the purposes of becoming his backup. Instead, if either of them come to Miami, Fiedler likely will go.

I really would prefer going with Collins and Feeley over Fiedler and Feeley or Warner and Feeley. I think Kerry is clearly better than Fiedler and if Feeley doesn't pan out we have a great #2 option that I'm sure a lot of people would feel better about, myself on the top of that list. And it wouldn't take Collins too long to get adjusted, he's been around a while and is smart enough to grasp our offense. Just food for thought!
 
Finsflurry said:
I think Kerry is clearly better than Fiedler
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This struck me as interesting, because I remember when Fielder got his extention his agents showed the Dolphins a large presentation showing him to be equal or better to several QBs, Collins among them. So, I wandered over to NFL.com to take a look. With the unusal caviat about 'lies, damn lies, and statistics'

Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
1995 CPan 15 13 433 214 49.4 2717 6.27 89 14 19 24/150 35 8 61.9
1996 CPan 13 12 364 204 56.0 2454 6.74 55 14 9 18/114 29 4 79.4
1997 CPan 13 13 381 200 52.5 2124 5.57 59 11 21 27/200 23 1 55.7
1998 NO 11 11 353 170 48.2 2213 6.27 89 12 15 31/191 26 6 62.0
1999 NYG 10 7 331 190 57.4 2318 7.00 80 8 11 16/112 25 4 73.3
2000 NYG 16 16 529 311 58.8 3610 6.82 59 22 13 28/243 46 7 83.1
2001 NYG 16 16 568 327 57.6 3764 6.63 76 19 16 36/206 52 7 77.1
2002 NYG 16 16 545 335 61.5 4073 7.47 82 19 14 24/152 61 4 85.4
2003 NYG 13 13 500 284 56.8 3110 6.22 77 13 16 28/164 29 7 70.7
TOTAL 123 117 4004 2235 55.8 26383 6.59 89 132 134 232/1532 326 48 73.1

Year Team G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
1998 MVik 5 0 7 3 42.9 41 5.86 19 0 1 0/0 0 0 22.6
1999 JJag 7 1 94 61 64.9 656 6.98 25 2 2 7/47 5 0 83.5
2000 Miami 15 15 357 204 57.1 2402 6.73 61 14 14 23/129 30 8 74.5
2001 Miami 16 16 450 273 60.7 3290 7.31 74 20 19 27/178 41 7 80.3
2002 Miami 11 10 292 179 61.3 2024 6.93 59 14 9 13/89 25 3 85.2
2003 Miami 12 11 314 179 57.0 2138 6.81 59 11 13 19/126 35 2 72.4
TOTAL 66 53 1514 899 59.4 10551 6.97 74 61 58 89/569 136 20 78.1

G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
Collins 123 117 4004 2235 55.8 26383 6.59 89 132 134 232/1532 326 48 73.1
Fiedler 66 53 1514 899 59.4 10551 6.97 74 61 58 89/569 136 20 78.1

Rushing:
Year G GS Att Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ FD
Collins 123 117 290 550 1.9 22 8 3 51
Fiedler 66 53 206 795 3.9 30 11 4 76

So, from this it appears that Fiedler is more accurage, has a better YPA, better TD/INT ratio, and a better QB Rating. On top of that, despite the different in their carreers, Fiedler has more rushing yards, TDs and First Downs.

I know Fiedler isn't popular around here, but what makes Collins 'clearly better'? I think especially with a suspect O-Line (while I'm confident it's better, how much better is it?) Jay would be a better fit for this team, even more so since he knows the system and the players.

What am I missing?
 
Holy crap that's a lot of numbers. Anyway, the reason I say Collins is clearly better is because IMO he has better accuracy, a stronger arm, is more durable, and makes better decisions (except for when he's in the red zone). I just think that with the improved o-line that someone with Kerry's talents would be a better fit than Fiedler.
 
What improved O-line?

I think the prudent approach would be to assume that the o-line will be slightly improved, if at all, and a QB with a little escapability should still take precedence over a pocket passer.

Also, I'm looking at those numbers and it doesn't appear to me that Collins has any more accuracy than JF.
 
What improved O-line?

You can't possibly think we'll be worse than last year do you? We had 2 of the worst starting o-lineman in the NFL (Perry and Ruddy) and we added a solid amount of young talent. Sure it may take them a while to gell, but I can't think they could be worse, I pray to God they're not because Ricky will start breaking down real quick if he keeps getting blasted as soon as he touches the ball. And by accuracy I mean if you watch Collins, he does a real good job of hitting people in stride, allowing them to rack up the YAC, and I think that's Fiedler's biggest problem.
 
Finsflurry said:
What improved O-line?

You can't possibly think we'll be worse than last year do you? We had 2 of the worst starting o-lineman in the NFL (Perry and Ruddy) and we added a solid amount of young talent. Sure it may take them a while to gell, but I can't think they could be worse, I pray to God they're not because Ricky will start breaking down real quick if he keeps getting blasted as soon as he touches the ball. And by accuracy I mean if you watch Collins, he does a real good job of hitting people in stride, allowing them to rack up the YAC, and I think that's Fiedler's biggest problem.
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I don't know whether they'll be better or worse and I don't think you do either. No offense intended.:D

I imagine that the coaches may have some idea of what to expect but, for that matter no one really knows anything yet.

Assuming that they will be improved enough to hold a pocket around an immobile QB on a consistent basis is going out on a limb, IMO. Better to have a mobile QB who can make things happen with his feet should the protection breakdown.

At this point I just don't think a Warner or a Collins(or the Dolphins for that matter) would survive the "gel-ing" process.
 
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But Fiedler has a better YPA...which includes (I believe) YAC.

I do think the o-line should be better, but that's today, no injuries, etc. We've already gotten a glimpse of an immobile QB behind a bad line with Griese last season...and that's something I heard from a lot of Giants fans as well.
 
Finsflurry said:
Holy crap that's a lot of numbers. Anyway, the reason I say Collins is clearly better is because IMO he has better accuracy, a stronger arm, is more durable, and makes better decisions (except for when he's in the red zone). I just think that with the improved o-line that someone with Kerry's talents would be a better fit than Fiedler.
Click to expand...

That was the point. You say Collins is more accurate, the numbers say Collins completes a lower % of passes than JF. You say Collins makes better decisions, the numbers say he throws more ints than JF. The numbers support the contention that Collins is more durable. We have no stat to compare arm strength, although Collins seems to have much more velocity.

When you're biased against a player you see clear upgrades everywhere. Is Collins better, maybe. It's difficult to compare players with different supporting casts in different systems. Bottom line: JF is an avg. QB with stretches of above avg. and below avg. play. Collins is an avg. QB with stretches of above avg. play and below avg. play. Collins may be an upgrade, but IMO it's hardly clear.
 
rafael said:
That was the point. You say Collins is more accurate, the numbers say Collins completes a lower % of passes than JF. You say Collins makes better decisions, the numbers say he throws more ints than JF. The numbers support the contention that Collins is more durable. We have no stat to compare arm strength, although Collins seems to have much more velocity.

When you're biased against a player you see clear upgrades everywhere. Is Collins better, maybe. It's difficult to compare players with different supporting casts in different systems. Bottom line: JF is an avg. QB with stretches of above avg. and below avg. play. Collins is an avg. QB with stretches of above avg. play and below avg. play. Collins may be an upgrade, but IMO it's hardly clear.
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Quite frankly, I wouldn't want either guy leading my offense.
By the way, one of my best friends is a HUGE Giants fan and the majority of Giants fans think of Collins what most Phins fan think of Fiedler........He sucks. Thake that for what it's worth.
 
That was the point. You say Collins is more accurate, the numbers say Collins completes a lower % of passes than JF. You say Collins makes better decisions, the numbers say he throws more ints than JF

Again, when I say accurate I'm not talking about completion percentage, I'm saying that Collins delivers the ball to his receivers in stride, unlike Fiedler who throws sometimes on the money but mostly makes the receiver reach for it preventing them from getting YAC. And Collins does make better decisions except for in the red zone, where a ton of his ints occur, but that would be much improved with him having Ricky back there.
 
Finsflurry said:
Again, when I say accurate I'm not talking about completion percentage, I'm saying that Collins delivers the ball to his receivers in stride, unlike Fiedler who throws sometimes on the money but mostly makes the receiver reach for it preventing them from getting YAC. And Collins does make better decisions except for in the red zone, where a ton of his ints occur, but that would be much improved with him having Ricky back there.
Click to expand...

And again, if that is the case, why does Jay have a higher YPA than Collins?
 
xiidaen said:
And again, if that is the case, why does Jay have a higher YPA than Collins?
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Boys, boys. Isn't this kinda like arguing over dog crap and cat crap..............Who cares it both stink :lol:
 
I really don't know why he has a higher YPA, and frankly I'm shocked, but honestly as a Dolphins fan who watches the games are you gonna tell me that Fiedler consistently puts people in a position to make YAC? If you review the games from last year, it's his biggest problem besides the injuries. I've watched several Giants games and one thing that always stands out about Collins is how he gets the ball to people in a position to make plays consistently. This has nothing to do with my dislike for Fiedler, it's just that his 3 main flaws (injuries,arm strength, and not hitting people in stride) are Collins 3 main strengths IMO.
 
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