Merged: The John Beck Value Thread

[MelbournePhin]

what are your thoughts on henne, FTP?

 

[Batroc]

How am I hostile? Becuase I defend the players on this team? That's not the same thing as getting angry at someone for not hating a player I hate. If you spend any time at all reading what I write, I defend the idea Beck hasn't had enough playing time to form any kinda realistic opinion on the players ability. Those that hate Beck are attacking the player himself, do you not see the difference?

I refuse to stand by and let people use their personal feelings control this thread, the Beck situation isn't about Beck and it shouldn't be, it's about the circumstances surrounding his chances. That's what this Beck discussion should be about. Instead some people use it to vent their hate towards Beck by using his trade value as an excuse to vent that hate. In other words, "Yeah Beck sucks, I wouldn't give up a peanut butter sandwhich for the guy". That's a personal attack on na player that's played just 5 games, that's simply stupid and it has no real value.

You want to be realistic about Beck, talk about the fact that his lack of playing time is by far the biggest reason his value won't be what we paid, not "he sucks" therefore we won't get much. That's not only bias and ignorant it's simply not true. How is it no one can say he's awsomne before he plays a snap of football in the NFL but after just 5 games we can say he sucks? Seriously, I don't know what the hell to tell you about the insanity of the thought process that happens with Beck and some fans here.

I've seen quite a few posters in this thread (dlockz and 3rdandInches to name two) reiterate very clearly that this post is NOT about personal feelings towards Beck. The question was posed and most of the posters have given a well thought out, honest opinion of what they thought Beck might bring as far as value in the trade market.
Now you can call those opinions as well as the original poll a way to mask hatred towards Beck, but I seriously don't believe that's the case. Parcells has always been a guy that likes to have his players or the prototype of what his type of player at any given position should be. That's not saying that a guy like Beck couldn't win him over with dynamic play because the man hasn't achieved his lofty status in the NFL by letting good players walk.
The problem is, for whatever reason Beck hasn't shown enough progress up to this point to impress this regime. The evidence in that statement is that both he and McCown were held out of two preseason games last summer.
With that being said, we know the idea of a Beck trade will be brought up more than a few times this offseason- both in the media and on this board. So the question is legit. Maybe some of the comments about Beck being traded for a cheese sandwich and so on are over the top, but so is getting irate when someone questions if Beck is good enough to even fetch a seventh round offer because right now frankly...those are legitimate concerns.

 

[feelthepain]

what are your thoughts on henne, FTP?

I think from what I've seen, he's smart, poised and strong armed. However he's only played a few series as a pro and they were mostly in the pre season. I'm excited knowing the tools he has to work with but it's hardly a reason to think he's a sure fire starting QB in the NFL. I can't wait to see what he brings, I have my fingers crossed.

 

[feelthepain]

I've seen quite a few posters in this thread (dlockz and 3rdandInches to name two) reiterate very clearly that this post is NOT about personal feelings towards Beck. The question was posed and most of the posters have given a well thought out, honest opinion of what they thought Beck might bring as far as value in the trade market.
Now you can call those opinions as well as the original poll a way to mask hatred towards Beck, but I seriously don't believe that's the case. Parcells has always been a guy that likes to have his players or the prototype of what his type of player at any given position should be. That's not saying that a guy like Beck couldn't win him over with dynamic play because the man hasn't achieved his lofty status in the NFL by letting good players walk.
The problem is, for whatever reason Beck hasn't shown enough progress up to this point to impress this regime. The evidence in that statement is that both he and McCown were held out of two preseason games last summer.
With that being said, we know the idea of a Beck trade will be brought up more than a few times this offseason- both in the media and on this board. So the question is legit. Maybe some of the comments about Beck being traded for a cheese sandwich and so on are over the top, but so is getting irate when someone questions if Beck is good enough to even fetch a seventh round offer because right now frankly...those are legitimate concerns.

I've seen a lot of Beck sucks too. And to me there is no place for that kinda shallow talk. It does anger some and for good reason, because it take waht could be a thread full of intelligent conversation and it adds a two year old feeling to it. Leave the hate out of the threads. If you don't like Beck I have no problem with that at all, but to get personal I do have a problem with that. The hate is simply not needed period.

 

[BobDole]

How am I hostile? Becuase I defend the players on this team? That's not the same thing as getting angry at someone for not hating a player I hate. If you spend any time at all reading what I write, I defend the idea Beck hasn't had enough playing time to form any kinda realistic opinion on the players ability. Those that hate Beck are attacking the player himself, do you not see the difference?

I refuse to stand by and let people use their personal feelings control this thread, the Beck situation isn't about Beck and it shouldn't be, it's about the circumstances surrounding his chances. That's what this Beck discussion should be about. Instead some people use it to vent their hate towards Beck by using his trade value as an excuse to vent that hate. In other words, "Yeah Beck sucks, I wouldn't give up a peanut butter sandwhich for the guy". That's a personal attack on na player that's played just 5 games, that's simply stupid and it has no real value.

You want to be realistic about Beck, talk about the fact that his lack of playing time is by far the biggest reason his value won't be what we paid, not "he sucks" therefore we won't get much. That's not only bias and ignorant it's simply not true. How is it no one can say he's awesome before he plays a snap of football in the NFL but after just 5 games we can say he sucks? Seriously, I don't know what the hell to tell you about the insanity of the thought process that happens with Beck and some fans here.

i agree with your perspective. he was thrown into the worst possible situation a rookie can be put in and shat the bed. no surprises whatsoever.

my deal is that i watched those excruciatingly painful 5 games and i saw nothing in him that would lead me to believe he will be successful at this level. the little confidence he had was shattered in those games. and sometimes you can't come back from that. i don't see him ever getting on the field (regular season at least) for us again so i would give him up for a 5th or 6th rounder.

 

[Batroc]

I've seen a lot of Beck sucks too.

I'd like nothing more than for you to be right on this one. If Beck comes into camp looking like the next Marino or Elway then that can only mean good things for the Fins and the good of the team is really what it's all about. Just my two cents.

 

[feelthepain]

i agree with your perspective. he was thrown into the worst possible situation a rookie can be put in and shat the bed. no surprises whatsoever.

my deal is that i watched those excruciatingly painful 5 games and i saw nothing in him that would lead me to believe he will be successful at this level. the little confidence he had was shattered in those games. and sometimes you can't come back from that. i don't see him ever getting on the field (regular season at least) for us again so i would give him up for a 5th or 6th rounder.

I think we also don't know If Beck is simply playing in the wrong system. Maybe the WCO is a better fit for him. Of cousre there's no way of knowing that by playing just five games in your pro career. I would be thrilled to see Beck succeed here or anywhere, they guy is a hard worker and he wants to succeed. What's not to like about that? If he fails, he fails, but he's done nothing personally to me to make me "Hate" the guy. I wish him the best of luck as long as it's not with a division rival.

 

[BobDole]

I think we also don't know If Beck is simply playing in the wrong system. Maybe the WCO is a better fit for him. Of cousre there's no way of knowing that by playing just five games in your pro career. I would be thrilled to see Beck succeed here or anywhere, they guy is a hard worker and he wants to succeed. What's not to like about that? If he fails, he fails, but he's done nothing personally to me to make me "Hate" the guy. I wish him the best of luck as long as it's not with a division rival.

i feel the same way. i have nothing against him and wish him success - wherever that may be. i know there will be more teams with question marks at qb next year than usual so this off season will be the time to get maximum value for him. he's a good guy and deserves a legitimate shot in this league.

 

[feelthepain]

i feel the same way. i have nothing against him and wish him success - wherever that may be. i know there will be more teams with question marks at qb next year than usual so this off season will be the time to get maximum value for him. he's a good guy and deserves a legitimate shot in this league.

Yes he does.

 

[dlockz]

How many chances has Beck had to play QB in the NFL? A number I might add that eludes you. How many chances has Boller had? I think Beck has still yet to be given a fair chance to play and Boller has had plenty. I also think it's fair to say Boller has proven he can't play Beck hasn't, how much simpler do you need this spelled out for you?

You see Beck as a failure based on 5 games played and Boller as adequate after 10 times that many games and very very little success. So lets break down what you see, Beck has played 5 games and has proven he's not worth much and Boller has played in a whole **** load more games and also had very little success yet Boller is the better option at back up, in your opinion.

Your opinion if truly first rate, if you're trying to covince everyone your opinion has nothing to do with Becks ability to play the game and everything to with the fact you simply don't like the guy. Seriously, no one that understands the game of football, especially the NFL could possibly know how good or bad a player is after just 5 games....expect Beck haters. Congrats on your very exclusive club.

I give up on trying to even reason with you on the very debate at hand. You have constantly replied with comments that have nothing to do with the conversation. Can anyone else tell me why trading for Beck is a better option than signing Kyle boller to be your backup, an intelligent answer that has nothing to do with whatever FTP is still talking about. I must say its been exausting trying to even get him to examine the true issue we are discussing. Label me what you may, I have constantly asked for genuine input on the matter at hand and you keep going back to Beck not being given a chance. None of that has anything to do with his damn trade value. Jim Drukimiller was never given a chance in San francisco and was a first round pick and he had very little trade value. What the hell makes Beck such a hot commodity.

Also for those 8 people that think beck can garner a first round pick, I would love you input on how this immaculate trade would happen. This would genuinely be the greatest value increase I have ever seen. I take it from the pure silence on this that people are just putting that for the hell of it because nobody can offer any true logic behind that opinion.

 

[dlockz]

i feel the same way. i have nothing against him and wish him success - wherever that may be. i know there will be more teams with question marks at qb next year than usual so this off season will be the time to get maximum value for him. he's a good guy and deserves a legitimate shot in this league.

What I dont understand is why people think he did not get a legitimate shot at a dolphin. Dont you think if he was impressive in the offseason and in preseason that he would be ahead of Henne. The NFL is full of qb's even first rounders that got 4 games or less to prove themselves. Did Guy Benjamin ever get a chance to prove himself, if Marino never got hurt would Mitchell have ever got a chance. Did Sage rosenfels ever get a chance here. I mean he started two whole games.

I still dont see how teams having question marks at qb increases the value of our third string qb that only threw the ball 11 times in preseason.

better options to trade for
Derek Anderson
matt Cassel
brian Griese
Troy Smith
Matt Leinhart
chris Redman
Senca Wallace
Patrick Ramsey
Sage rosefels
Damon Huard
Brodie Croyle
billy Volek
jeff garcia
Chris simms

Better options to sign as free agents
Rex Grossman
byron Leftwich
JP Losman
Charlie Frye
Kyle Boller
Kerry Collins


Hell you could say trading for Alex Smith is a better option since he has been a starter for a whole season and was the number one pick in the draft and he is only 24 years old.

I dont see any of this helping his value.

 

[CedarPhin]

Not to mention that Alex Smith wasn't half bad in 2006. Losing Norv Turner really hurt him in 2007, and he was hurt all of last year.

Not saying he's great, but he's not terrible either.

 

[BobDole]

What I dont understand is why people think he did not get a legitimate shot at a dolphin. Dont you think if he was impressive in the offseason and in preseason that he would be ahead of Henne. The NFL is full of qb's even first rounders that got 4 games or less to prove themselves. Did Guy Benjamin ever get a chance to prove himself, if Marino never got hurt would Mitchell have ever got a chance. Did Sage rosenfels ever get a chance here. I mean he started two whole games.

I still dont see how teams having question marks at qb increases the value of our third string qb that only threw the ball 11 times in preseason.

better options to trade for
Derek Anderson
matt Cassel
brian Griese
Troy Smith
Matt Leinhart
chris Redman
Senca Wallace
Patrick Ramsey
Sage rosefels
Damon Huard
Brodie Croyle
billy Volek
jeff garcia
Chris simms

Better options to sign as free agents
Rex Grossman
byron Leftwich
JP Losman
Charlie Frye
Kyle Boller
Kerry Collins


Hell you could say trading for Alex Smith is a better option since he has been a starter for a whole season and was the number one pick in the draft and he is only 24 years old.

I dont see any of this helping his value.

i said he is around 5th or 6th round value, which is pretty bad for a relatively young qb. as far as the legitimate shot goes, our offense was just awful. i don't think he had any chance of success in the situation he was thrown into (between OL, WR, injuries, head coach, play calling, etc, etc.).

while i agree that the chances of him being a solid starter are slim, i still think he deserves a chance on a team that has more fire power and stability on offense. the difference between beck and some of the qb's you mentioned
(ramsey, losman, etc.) is they got ample time to prove themselves on decent teams (focusing on offense, although defense does play a part) and still didn't perform. taking into account age (collins, redman, griese, garcia), injuries (leftwich), and what it will take to bring them in (cassel) - a 5th for beck wouldn't be crazy. the teams with serious question marks at qb should be willing to give up a 5th for depth if nothing else. cassel is the only qb in that group that a team would bank on - everyone else is an iffy.

i totally get where you are coming from but i don't think a 5th or 6th rounder for beck is totally off base.

 

[dlockz]

i said he is around 5th or 6th round value, which is pretty bad for a relatively young qb. as far as the legitimate shot goes, our offense was just awful. i don't think he had any chance of success in the situation he was thrown into (between OL, WR, injuries, head coach, play calling, etc, etc.).

while i agree that the chances of him being a solid starter are slim, i still think he deserves a chance on a team that has more fire power and stability on offense. the difference between beck and some of the qb's you mentioned
(ramsey, losman, etc.) is they got ample time to prove themselves on decent teams (focusing on offense, although defense does play a part) and still didn't perform. taking into account age (collins, redman, griese, garcia), injuries (leftwich), and what it will take to bring them in (cassel) - a 5th for beck wouldn't be crazy. the teams with serious question marks at qb should be willing to give up a 5th for depth if nothing else. cassel is the only qb in that group that a team would bank on - everyone else is an iffy.

i totally get where you are coming from but i don't think a 5th or 6th rounder for beck is totally off base.

I agree to say a 5th or 6th is a rational viewpoint and not impossible. I said a 7th because we have done nothing to increase his value. I have no dount Beck if he goes to another team can make thier team but in almost any case he is starting as a third stringer based on his experience. No team want to intrust a guy with limited experience as thier backup off the bat. he will have to fight his way up the depth chart whereever he goes and will be in no differant scenario than he is in Miami until he proves himself.

 

[TakeOne]

BTW I voted 6th rounder, at best.