Miami should forget DT Manuel Wright, and go for WR Roscoe Crosby

[byroan]

Because the supplemental draft appears to present a player in a better light because of the lesser numbers of players being drafted, IMHO

That's true. But I'm going to trust Saban's judgement. If Wanny was still around I'd be scared of the supplemental draft because we might throw 3 or more picks away.

IMO, If Saban puts a bid on anyone it will be a second day pick.

 

[ckparrothead]

All this is interesting, and you make a great arguement for Crosby CK, but we have a burner in Newson, Gilmore, and Josh D. In other words, these guys are all young. Not to mention Chambers and Boston, with DT and Booker being the slower WR's. Crosby hasn't played since 2001, unfortunate situation. If we spend higher than a 6th, that's crazy. Even if he makes the team, we loose experience with our other young WR's who atleast have a year under their belts. I'm not sold, even though he will probably be a good player in reading your account of him.

At the DT spot, Traylor 35, Zgonia, 34, Chester 29, Romero 25. BU's to them Carter 33, Holiday 31. Gardner was a great run stuffer as well as pass rusher, that's not bad at NT, Gardner role was to take on double teams and still make a impact, which he did. If Wright can play that kind of football, which do you think will make the greatest impact over the next couple of years. A receiver that has to be developed or DT who can probably play year 1.

Finally, we lose a draft pick next year on a maybe..

Newson and Davis do not deserve the title "burner". Neither is fast, especially Davis. If Davis were fast, he would have been drafted. Newson has never been fast either. Gilmore is fast, unfortunately he's not very good. Maybe he's a developmental guy too, but I would rather have some better competition as our "developmental" guy than Josh Davis and Bryan Gilmore. Kendall Newson, let me just say I believed in him too, but you have to know when the odds are worst than they are better. The guy is now injury prone in addition to his not showing up during actual games.

As for the Daryl Gardener comparison, please try and remember that when anyone comes up with these comparisons, they come up with a name everyone KNOWS, so that means a comparison with a guy that turned out to be good. I wasn't saying Manuel Wright is going to be the next Daryl Gardener, I was saying he compares to Daryl in his style of play. That could mean the dude is out of the league within 2 years. Or, it could mean he becomes a hall of famer. Nonetheless he compares with DG, IMO.

Richard Seymour does not play nose tackle much, if at all, in the Pats' scheme. Period.

With Saban's defense coming to Miami you must now segregate defensive line positions into THREE categories, not TWO anymore. Before, with the 4-3 press JJ defense, there are TWO categories, DE and DT. DTs are run stuffing huge dudes. DE's are tall lanky fast passrushers. Now, we've got DE/LBs, who are tall, lanky, fast, and can play in space and passrush, DE/DTs who are tall and possess passrush ability and are big enough to play a "tackle" position, and NTs who are WIDE but not TALL, and whose sole purpose is to tie up two blockers at one time and NOT GET MOVED. This is something people here need to understand. When you consider a guy, you can no longer say "Hey, we need depth at DT" because you have to clarify, we either need depth at NT, depth at DE/DT (or DT/DE whichever you prefer), or depth at DE/LB. Right now, I would say we have plenty of DT/DE players for the 2005 roster. I say we have plenty of DE/LB players as well. But we really only have 2 legitimate, IMO, NT players for the roster (with one being injured), because I do not like Dario Romero at that position.

So the question is, does Manuel Wright fit THAT role? Would he be depth or the future at THAT position. I don't know. That is for the coaches to decide. But what I am saying, is that at 6'6" tall, the odds are against him that he'd be a good nose tackle candidate.

This is why the supplemental draft is so dangerous, with having so few players available in it, you get tunnel vision. What do we need? We need NT. What is there out there? Manuel Wright, who's a DT. Anyone else? Nope. So, I guess we need HIM! And for that, we're going to give up a pick whose value we do not truly know. That, IMO, is as dangerous as drafting for need with the #1 pick in the draft. IMO, you draft Manuel Wright in the supplemental draft and you run the danger of trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

Roscoe Crosby does not fill a need. He fills an opening, but by no means is that a need. If we draft him, the percentages are more on our side that we did not misevaluate him.

Believe it or not, the Manuel Wright thing in the supplemental draft reminds me a lot of the Vernon Carey situation. And, if Rick Spielman were still here, I would expect he'd end up paying par + 1 to get Manuel Wright.

The reason I've softened on Roscoe Crosby in the supplemental draft is because it is his talent and story that has caught my eye, not his position. Everyone here has had their eye caught by Manuel Wright because of his position, not his talent.

 

[PhinstiGator]

...Richard Seymour does not play nose tackle much, if at all, in the Pats' scheme. Period.

Well, does he or does he not?

And how often will the Dolphins play the nose technique per game? 20% or less? And would Wright be a perfect fit for the Richard Seymour role at DT in our current defense?

 

[MDFINFAN]

Newson and Davis do not deserve the title "burner". Neither is fast, especially Davis. If Davis were fast, he would have been drafted. Newson has never been fast either. Gilmore is fast, unfortunately he's not very good. Maybe he's a developmental guy too, but I would rather have some better competition as our "developmental" guy than Josh Davis and Bryan Gilmore. Kendall Newson, let me just say I believed in him too, but you have to know when the odds are worst than they are better. The guy is now injury prone in addition to his not showing up during actual games.

As for the Daryl Gardener comparison, please try and remember that when anyone comes up with these comparisons, they come up with a name everyone KNOWS, so that means a comparison with a guy that turned out to be good. I wasn't saying Manuel Wright is going to be the next Daryl Gardener, I was saying he compares to Daryl in his style of play. That could mean the dude is out of the league within 2 years. Or, it could mean he becomes a hall of famer. Nonetheless he compares with DG, IMO.

Richard Seymour does not play nose tackle much, if at all, in the Pats' scheme. Period.

With Saban's defense coming to Miami you must now segregate defensive line positions into THREE categories, not TWO anymore. Before, with the 4-3 press JJ defense, there are TWO categories, DE and DT. DTs are run stuffing huge dudes. DE's are tall lanky fast passrushers. Now, we've got DE/LBs, who are tall, lanky, fast, and can play in space and passrush, DE/DTs who are tall and possess passrush ability and are big enough to play a "tackle" position, and NTs who are WIDE but not TALL, and whose sole purpose is to tie up two blockers at one time and NOT GET MOVED. This is something people here need to understand. When you consider a guy, you can no longer say "Hey, we need depth at DT" because you have to clarify, we either need depth at NT, depth at DE/DT (or DT/DE whichever you prefer), or depth at DE/LB. Right now, I would say we have plenty of DT/DE players for the 2005 roster. I say we have plenty of DE/LB players as well. But we really only have 2 legitimate, IMO, NT players for the roster (with one being injured), because I do not like Dario Romero at that position.

So the question is, does Manuel Wright fit THAT role? Would he be depth or the future at THAT position. I don't know. That is for the coaches to decide. But what I am saying, is that at 6'6" tall, the odds are against him that he'd be a good nose tackle candidate.

This is why the supplemental draft is so dangerous, with having so few players available in it, you get tunnel vision. What do we need? We need NT. What is there out there? Manuel Wright, who's a DT. Anyone else? Nope. So, I guess we need HIM! And for that, we're going to give up a pick whose value we do not truly know. That, IMO, is as dangerous as drafting for need with the #1 pick in the draft. IMO, you draft Manuel Wright in the supplemental draft and you run the danger of trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

Roscoe Crosby does not fill a need. He fills an opening, but by no means is that a need. If we draft him, the percentages are more on our side that we did not misevaluate him.

Believe it or not, the Manuel Wright thing in the supplemental draft reminds me a lot of the Vernon Carey situation. And, if Rick Spielman were still here, I would expect he'd end up paying par + 1 to get Manuel Wright.

The reason I've softened on Roscoe Crosby in the supplemental draft is because it is his talent and story that has caught my eye, not his position. Everyone here has had their eye caught by Manuel Wright because of his position, not his talent.

Good response, but I wasn't focus on Wright because of his position, but because I thought he was the BPA in this supplemental draft. Having said that, it's nice that he plays at a position, not of need for this coming year, but one that seem to be hard to fill. Year after year after year, we've only drafted T. Bo and Gardner to fill the DT spot. Chester was brought in, and we've had several tries at the lower end of the draft to try and find that jewel and haven't. Wright, imho, is the best shot at finding a decent DT\NT as a young guy right out of college, who seems to have the upside needed to finally give us some breathing room at the position. My thoughts on the supplementary draft is that it's even more of a crapshoot than the regular draft, so if you're going to give up a draft pick, make it the best player possible.

While I agree with you somewhat on the WR's, I do think Newson is pretty fast. Is he injury prone, I don't know, last year he played in NFLE and then back home, that's pretty demanding on the body, especially playing at that level. Next year's draft seem to have some good WR's in it as well, so do we really want to develope one now, or draft a NFL ready made one next draft? As you said that's the question the coaches have to decide.

In terms of Wright having DG's type skills, that's a complement, DG was a monster, and I believe he could play NT, as well as regular DT, that's why I noted his job was to take on double teams. I felt he could do that in a way that made him effective against both the run and pass. In essence, the way we used our DT's in JJ's system, they basically played NT at the DT spot, taking up blockers to free up the LB's...ie. Zach, and still stopped any runs up the middle. DG problem wasn't his play, but his off field problems and then his back. That cut his career short more so than his play.

 

[ckparrothead]

Well, does he or does he not?

And how often will the Dolphins play the nose technique per game? 20% or less? And would Wright be a perfect fit for the Richard Seymour role at DT in our current defense?

When there are depth problems, I'm sure he does. As for the second question, the dolphins will play the nose technique in their BASE defense. I believe you are thinking that we only have a NT in on 3-4 plays, but this is false. Even when we're in 4-3, we have a nose tackle in.

And MDFINFAN...I think perhaps you did not read where I said that comparing him to Daryl Gardener was specifically NOT a compliment, but rather a label to the style of player he is. He could be the most untalented player in the world, and he still compares to DG to me, because of his height. Also, Newson is not fast. He's in the 4.5 range. I don't have the source of that on me, but I have read his draft reports coming out of college. And I'm not exactly sure, but I do not believe Newson played in NFLEu last year. He played the year before last, if I'm not mistaken. He got injured and also disappointed during the year he played in NFLEu, and he got injured last year when he didn't play in NFLEu. He did very well in NFLEu though, I remember it was the same year Robert Baker lit the league on fire in Europe...when Baker and Newson played each other in the World Bowl, and I came away more impressed with the WR opposite Baker than by Baker. And Newson, I remember, was used in a wide open offense of 3-4 WRs at a time in Europe.

What I disagree with is the assessment that Wright fits the NT role, until I see scouting reports that tell me different. It should not be assumed that he fits that role just becaue he's a DT.

 

[PhinstiGator]

...As for the second question, the dolphins will play the nose technique in their BASE defense. I believe you are thinking that we only have a NT in on 3-4 plays, but this is false. Even when we're in 4-3, we have a nose tackle in...

Not necessarily. By definition, the mixed fronts will attack different gaps with a mix of responsibilities. It's likely that Traylor will take the nose most often, but sometimes Zgonia/Carter/Holiday will have that responsibility.

In the 3-4 alignment the nose tackle's responsibility is more critical... needing to hold his ground and close the "A" gaps. In the 4-3, our tackles have more flexibility to shoot the gaps and penetrate. We certainly won't be playing nose technique every play.

 

[ckparrothead]

Not necessarily. By definition, the mixed fronts will attack different gaps with a mix of responsibilities. It's likely that Traylor will take the nose most often, but sometimes Zgonia/Carter/Holiday will have that responsibility.

In the 3-4 alignment the nose tackle's responsibility is more critical... needing to hold his ground and close the "A" gaps. In the 4-3, our tackles have more flexibility to shoot the gaps and penetrate. We certainly won't be playing nose technique every play.

This is false. At all times in the base package there will be a DT who is playing over top of the center. On obvious passing downs, this may change, but on obvious passing downs, every DC in the league throws in their best passrush package period.

 

[wazzy]

IMO dont know much about the players but i trust Sabans judgement and it was a good read but were still in need of DT

 

[HelloMotto]

If Wright is more of a Darryl Gardener than a Tim Bowens, that is a very good thing.

Gardener was a top 5 DT when healthy and in his prime.

We don't need a WR.

thats what i was thinking. With tim and darryl in the middle nobody ran on us. period.....

 

[WaxOn WaxOff]

Drafting Crosby would be a mistake...

I saw him pay every game of his freshman year. He would have been an above average college receiver, MAYBE all-ACC even (emphasize maybe). Yes, he has great numbers, but he isn't a fluid receiver. On top of that, he only played 1 year of colege ball and hasn't played any football in several years. Forget what Stockstill said- I know this guy and he overrates all his players. You would waste a draft pick on a player that is only worth a brief look at rookie camp? Bad move.