Monday Morning Practice Tweets

[Irishfinfan1]

I don't care about starts, I care more about snaps, and snap quality. In 2008, Randy Starks wasn't technically a starter (I don't think) but he had the 2nd most DL snaps on the team and as I kept trying to tell people, was our best DL, had the biggest impact on the games.

Paul Soliai is considered a starter but he won't tend to get more than 500-550 snaps a season. The "backup" defensive lineman could very well end up with 600+.

They say it's not how you start but you finish, right? So maybe we should stop looking for "starters" and start looking for "finishers". If we're caught up on titles and labels and whatnot, then label the role I have in mind for Odrick a "finisher" role instead of a "starter" role.

Agree with you totally CK. So in the scenario that we are playing the Pats who are unlikely to run the ball too much would you consider starting Odrick and Starks as interior linemen when they are on 1st down, but have a 3 or 4 WR set?

 

[jim1]

I realize there's a lot of support for Jared Odrick here and I still like him as a player but I believe now, as I have since Vernon was drafted, that Olivier Vernon and Jamaal Westerman should hold rotate/compete for the base downs at left defensive end, and that Jared Odrick should rotate in at defensive tackle on those downs and then be a permanent fixture in our nickel packages as a pass rushing defensive tackle. He can still get 500-600 snaps in those roles, which is essentially a starter's load. I'm not saying Odrick should just be a "backup".

When Westerman was signed, I took a look at how he played with the Jets. While I don't think he's necessarily a GOOD player (play maker), he was a strong player that played the run really well, and had good enough athleticism to make plays with his motor in pass rush. Essentially, I graded him similar to Jeremy Mincey, who just collected a 4 year $20 million deal with the Jaguars. On that basis, I said that to get Westerman on a veteran's minimum deal, was a good buy.

And when I took a look at Olivier Vernon, I thought he played similarly to Westerman, and said that the very least you get with OV is a Jamaal Westerman, but probably more because he's younger and still has more development ahead of him.

The only problem is I don't think Miami has a TRUE nickel edge rusher...aside from Cameron Wake. That's pretty much the only one. Jeff Ireland needed to find another one somehow but he didn't.

I'd like to see Odrick on the field quite a bit including as a starting DE- the guy is a good player and one heck of an athlete, pretty serious wheels for a guy who weighs 300 lbs. Base DE rotating in to DT on passing downs sounds about right for me. I think that Vernon will prove to be the nickel edge rusher, and Westerman might have something to offer there as well. From what I've seen Odrick is surprisingly fast and quick, and I don't see Vernon or Westerman bumping him from a base DE starting role anytime soon.

 

[ckparrothead]

Agree with you totally CK. So in the scenario that we are playing the Pats who are unlikely to run the ball too much would you consider starting Odrick and Starks as interior linemen when they are on 1st down, but have a 3 or 4 WR set?

Everything has to be a reaction to personnel packages as well as down and distance situation. You can't go in saying that the Pats aren't ever going to run the ball, or that we're going to do this or that all game.

It's not like the Patriots were last in the league in rush attempts. They were 17th in the league, and they tied for the 3rd most rushing touchdowns. Further, with the development of Stevan Ridley and Shane Vereen, the dominance of Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez, as well as their tendency to evolve their offensive attack every year in order to stay ahead of the competition...my money is on them hitting teams with a far more vicious ground attack this year than people generally imagine.

Just a pet theory.

 

[ckparrothead]

I'd like to see Odrick on the field quite a bit including as a starting DE- the guy is a good player and one heck of an athlete, pretty serious wheels for a guy who weighs 300 lbs. Base DE rotating in to DT on passing downs sounds about right for me. I think that Vernon will prove to be the nickel edge rusher, and Westerman might have something to offer there as well. From what I've seen Odrick is surprisingly fast and quick, and I don't see Vernon or Westerman bumping him from a base DE starting role anytime soon.

In the end it's all just differences of opinion and we've got to see how it plays out.

To me, I just don't like pushing a bad position. We don't have a great nickel pass rusher to play end opposite Cam Wake. Fine. There's no use crying over spilled milk. What you do then is focus on what you CAN improve to make the "finishing" defense as dangerous as possible. To me that means making sure Randy Starks and Jared Odrick are fresh and lively to rush the interior while Cameron Wake rushes the outside. If you've got that going on, you can afford not having a great end pass rusher opposite Wake. Hell, I think Dave Tollefson filled a similar role with the Giants this year and he can't pass rush worth a damn.

So to make Randy Starks and Jared Odrick as fresh and lively as possible for that nickel defense, I figure why not rotate them with one another pretty heavily in the base packages?

 

[Irishfinfan1]

Everything has to be a reaction to personnel packages as well as down and distance situation. You can't go in saying that the Pats aren't ever going to run the ball, or that we're going to do this or that all game.

It's not like the Patriots were last in the league in rush attempts. They were 17th in the league, and they tied for the 3rd most rushing touchdowns. Further, with the development of Stevan Ridley and Shane Vereen, the dominance of Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez, as well as their tendency to evolve their offensive attack every year in order to stay ahead of the competition...my money is on them hitting teams with a far more vicious ground attack this year than people generally imagine.

Just a pet theory.

Cheers CK, could make a complete idiot out of myself here but I don't see the Pats being as strong a team as they have been, honestly think Brady is on the downside of his career, with a bit of turnover on the Oline I see him either getting injured or getting happy feet. Maybe running the ball more would address that but we shall see.

 

[jim1]

Everything has to be a reaction to personnel packages as well as down and distance situation. You can't go in saying that the Pats aren't ever going to run the ball, or that we're going to do this or that all game.

It's not like the Patriots were last in the league in rush attempts. They were 17th in the league, and they tied for the 3rd most rushing touchdowns. Further, with the development of Stevan Ridley and Shane Vereen, the dominance of Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez, as well as their tendency to evolve their offensive attack every year in order to stay ahead of the competition...my money is on them hitting teams with a far more vicious ground attack this year than people generally imagine.

Just a pet theory.

Interesting theory, but if that is to be the case they would have been well served in drafting David DeCastro in my opinion.

 

[tanny23]

Thanks for updates

 

[jim1]

In the end it's all just differences of opinion and we've got to see how it plays out.

To me, I just don't like pushing a bad position. We don't have a great nickel pass rusher to play end opposite Cam Wake. Fine. There's no use crying over spilled milk. What you do then is focus on what you CAN improve to make the "finishing" defense as dangerous as possible. To me that means making sure Randy Starks and Jared Odrick are fresh and lively to rush the interior while Cameron Wake rushes the outside. If you've got that going on, you can afford not having a great end pass rusher opposite Wake. Hell, I think Dave Tollefson filled a similar role with the Giants this year and he can't pass rush worth a damn.



So to make Randy Starks and Jared Odrick as fresh and lively as possible for that nickel defense, I figure why not rotate them with one another pretty heavily in the base packages?

It's an interesting point of view, but the opportunity cost is having Odrick off of the field in the base on 1st and 2nd downs, and he's just a quality DE against the run and the pass, and as I said before he looks awfully quick and fast to me, even for a guy significantly less than his 300 or 305 lbs, whatever it is. You have a good point as per the nickel rusher role, but I like Olivier Vernon quite a bit and I think that he steps right into that role, a simple and effective solution. Vernon and Lamar Miller are quite a 1-2 puch from UM, good to see us getting some local talent again.

 

[CedarPhin]

It's an interesting point of view, but the opportunity cost is having Odrick off of the field in the base on 1st and 2nd downs, and he's just a quality DE against the run and the pass, and as I said before he looks awfully quick and fast to me, even for a guy significantly less than his 300 or 305 lbs, whatever it is. You have a good point as per the nickel rusher role, but I like Olivier Vernon quite a bit and I think that he steps right into that role, a simple and effective solution. Vernon and Lamar Miller are quite a 1-2 puch from UM, good to see us getting some local talent again.

Definitely is refreshing.

 

[joval]

Odrick's year to shine

 

[finfan54]

Coyle has some 20 blitz packages. Westerman and Vernon will provide relief IMO. Westerman is a guy I can see get 8 sacks or so if he gets his reps because I am one of the few who actually think that Ireland knows what he needs for cheap. My prediction is that Westerman will be just as good if not better than the guy from Pats who went to Buffalo.

 

[fakespike]

Cheers CK, could make a complete idiot out of myself here but I don't see the Pats being as strong a team as they have been, honestly think Brady is on the downside of his career, with a bit of turnover on the Oline I see him either getting injured or getting happy feet. Maybe running the ball more would address that but we shall see.

Brady seemed as accurate and composed as ever in 2011. He will be better in his final season in the nfl, whenever that may be, than anyone we've had back there since Dan.

 

[NyPhan23]

Coyle has some 20 blitz packages. Westerman and Vernon will provide relief IMO. Westerman is a guy I can see get 8 sacks or so if he gets his reps because I am one of the few who actually think that Ireland knows what he needs for cheap. My prediction is that Westerman will be just as good if not better than the guy from Pats who went to Buffalo.

Let's hope so, the jets fans tend to disagree, but it sounds like he has the potential.

 

[stooby13]

thanks for the update