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More than one way a QB can hurt his team

SCall13

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Obviously there is a lot of talking surrounding the QBs and a lot of threads. I thought I'd throw another one out there.
In a current thread, the amount of INTs off the recievers hands are being discussed. (About Joey). I say there is 4 off the recievers hands that could have/should have been caught. Some will argue that the passes weren't perfect and 2 of them were not. But catching imperfect passes is what the recievers get paid for. They don't get paid to make the easy ones. WE could all do that. (Most of us). The tough catches are why they make the big bucks. And honestly, NONE of the 4 ricochet INTs were that tough to catch.
SO anyway, we obviously have QB issues, regardless of who starts. But in defense of Joey Harrington, whom I really prefer at this point, he are a few other stats that aren't being weighed heavily enough in the arguments:

In 61 games, Harrington has fumbled the ball 22 times and lost only 8. That is averaging way less than 1/2 a fumble per game. Harrington has been sacked 82 times in those 62 games. That is only 1.32 times per game.

In 84 games, Culpepper has fumbled the ball a WHOPPING 84 times and lost 36 of them. Exactly one fumble per game average and losing close to half of them. In those same 84 games, Culpepper has been sacked 249 times. That's an amazing amount of sacks considering the line he played behind in Minnesota. He is averaging almost 3 sacks per game for his career. There was a lot of blame going toward our O-line for that this year. Obviously, the line is not good. But is it a coincedence that Culpepper was averaging close to the same sacks per game with us as he was with Minny? (More with us, but alot of the sacks were for the same reason -holding the ball too long.) And is it a coincedence that the sack totals went down ENORMOUSLY when Harrington came in? I think not.

There is more than one way to turn the ball over. And more than one way to hurt your team.
 
SCall13 said:
Obviously there is a lot of talking surrounding the QBs and a lot of threads. I thought I'd throw another one out there.
In a current thread, the amount of INTs off the recievers hands are being discussed. (About Joey). I say there is 4 off the recievers hands that could have/should have been caught. Some will argue that the passes weren't perfect and 2 of them were not. But catching imperfect passes is what the recievers get paid for. They don't get paid to make the easy ones. WE could all do that. (Most of us). The tough catches are why they make the big bucks. And honestly, NONE of the 4 ricochet INTs were that tough to catch.
SO anyway, we obviously have QB issues, regardless of who starts. But in defense of Joey Harrington, whom I really prefer at this point, he are a few other stats that aren't being weighed heavily enough in the arguments:

In 61 games, Harrington has fumbled the ball 22 times and lost only 8. That is averaging way less than 1/2 a fumble per game. Harrington has been sacked 82 times in those 62 games. That is only 1.32 times per game.

In 84 games, Culpepper has fumbled the ball a WHOPPING 84 times and lost 36 of them. Exactly one fumble per game average and losing close to half of them. In those same 84 games, Culpepper has been sacked 249 times. That's an amazing amount of sacks considering the line he played behind in Minnesota. He is averaging almost 3 sacks per game for his career. There was a lot of blame going toward our O-line for that this year. Obviously, the line is not good. But is it a coincedence that Culpepper was averaging close to the same sacks per game with us as he was with Minny? (More with us, but alot of the sacks were for the same reason -holding the ball too long.) And is it a coincedence that the sack totals went down ENORMOUSLY when Harrington came in? I think not.

There is more than one way to turn the ball over. And more than one way to hurt your team.




don't confuse all the cpep lickers by giving them the facts.....
 
You had to start a whole new thread about this, when we were talking about it on the other thread?

A QB can hurt you with innaccurate passes and INTs too. Why didn't you compare thier career numbers in those categories?

EDIT: Also it's not a coincedence the sack totals went down, since the pass blocking improved tremendously.
 
Frisches13283 said:
You had to start a whole new thread about this, when we were talking about it on the other thread?

A QB can hurt you with innaccurate passes and INTs too. Why didn't you compare thier career numbers in those categories?

EDIT: Also it's not a coincedence the sack totals went down, since the pass blocking improved tremendously.

why doesn't he also compare probowls and years with a rating over 90
 
Frisches13283 said:
You had to start a whole new thread about this, when we were talking about it on the other thread?

A QB can hurt you with innaccurate passes and INTs too. Why didn't you compare thier career numbers in those categories?


Yeah, I did have to start a new thread about. You didn't have to open it.

Their career numbers in the categories you are talking about have already been discussed. SO, I thought I'd throw other FACTS out there. The fact IS, Culpepper has played behind substantially better lines than Harrington has ever played behind yet has taken almost 3 times as many sacks as Harrinton and fumbled the ball 3 times has much and lost more than 4 times the fumbles. Yes, Culpepper has played in more games, but when you break it down by average, the differences are staggering.
If you put Harrington is a similar situation as Culpepper was in while in Minnesota, he would have likely excelled (or been way better than his career average) with way more time and way more offensive talent. (Especially the pass protection -something Harrington has never had the luxury of). Culpepper played behind one of the best lines in the NFL while Harrington played behind one of the worst.
 
Dol-Fan Dupree said:
why doesn't he also compare probowls and years with a rating over 90


Because there is no way to fairly judge that given Culpepper has always been surrounded by a better team. But you can fairly judge the stats I brought up because it's very clear that the teams Culpepper has had the luxury of QBing (up until this year) have been clearly more talented than the ones Harrington has ever played on. Yet, some of the problems Culpepper had, and still has, stand out like a sore thumb even when on very good teams. 249 sacks? Behind a very good line? 84 fumbles in as many games played? No he doesn't hold the ball too long. No, he doesn't have trouble reading defenses.
 
Nice post Scall, rational and well thought out but you will never convince some of these people that Daunte is not a God, it's a fruitless effort.

Personally I agree though Harrington is the obvious choice at this point and hopefully Daunte gets some time at the end of the season to prove his worth or pack his bags either one will be fine by me, I just want the best man to get the job based on present performance not the past.
 
bluehaze said:
Nice post Scall, rational and well thought out but you will never convince some of these people that Daunte is not a God, it's a fruitless effort.

Personally I agree though Harrington is the obvious choice at this point and hopefully Daunte gets some time at the end of the season to prove his worth or pack his bags either one will be fine by me, I just want the best man to get the job based on present performance not the past.


I agree. The QB needs to be won and not handed to someone. If there had been a fair competition for the QB spot during this past offseason, Harrington would have been the starter from day one (for whatever reason) and probably would be playing even better being that he would have had a fair amount of time with the first unit leading into the pre-season and season. Hopefully the job isn't HANDED to anyone again and they (whoever it is) will have to actually EARN the job.
 
bluehaze said:
Nice post Scall, rational and well thought out but you will never convince some of these people that Daunte is not a God, it's a fruitless effort.

Personally I agree though Harrington is the obvious choice at this point and hopefully Daunte gets some time at the end of the season to prove his worth or pack his bags either one will be fine by me, I just want the best man to get the job based on present performance not the past.

And to this point they have been equal in thier performances for this team.
 
SCall13 said:
Because there is no way to fairly judge that given Culpepper has always been surrounded by a better team. But you can fairly judge the stats I brought up because it's very clear that the teams Culpepper has had the luxury of QBing (up until this year) have been clearly more talented than the ones Harrington has ever played on. Yet, some of the problems Culpepper had, and still has, stand out like a sore thumb even when on very good teams. 249 sacks? Behind a very good line? 84 fumbles in as many games played? No he doesn't hold the ball too long. No, he doesn't have trouble reading defenses.

It is impossible to have his career stats and to have lots of trouble reading defenses.

All quarterbacks have trouble reading defenses, no quarterback is actually perfect.

Mobile quarterbacks tend to be sacked more. It is usually because their ability to run causes them to hold onto the ball longer looking for the big play. Also generally mobile quarterbacks fumble more.
 
SCall13 said:
I agree. The QB needs to be won and not handed to someone. If there had been a fair competition for the QB spot during this past offseason, Harrington would have been the starter from day one (for whatever reason) and probably would be playing even better being that he would have had a fair amount of time with the first unit leading into the pre-season and season. Hopefully the job isn't HANDED to anyone again and they (whoever it is) will have to actually EARN the job.

Actually if you go back through the camp notes, I'm pretty sure Culpepper was said to look much better than Harrington was. I'm not saying there was "fair" competition, but the better looking player did start the season. And no, that doesn't mean Culpepper was healthy, just because he looked better in camp.
 
Dol-Fan Dupree said:
It is impossible to have his career stats and to have lots of trouble reading defenses.

All quarterbacks have trouble reading defenses, no quarterback is actually perfect.

Mobile quarterbacks tend to be sacked more. It is usually because their ability to run causes them to hold onto the ball longer looking for the big play. Also generally mobile quarterbacks fumble more.

QBs with smaller than average hands fumble more too.
 
I really am getting fed up with reading the excuses for Harrington and all of his man-lovers. I've slowed my reading and posting on the main forum at this site for this exact reason.
 
SCall13 said:
I agree. The QB needs to be won and not handed to someone. If there had been a fair competition for the QB spot during this past offseason, Harrington would have been the starter from day one (for whatever reason) and probably would be playing even better being that he would have had a fair amount of time with the first unit leading into the pre-season and season. Hopefully the job isn't HANDED to anyone again and they (whoever it is) will have to actually EARN the job.

if it was a "fair" competition according to fans Cleo Lemon would be the starting quarterback.

It wasn't HANDED to Culpepper. he won the job during the offseason with his hard work and determination. The idea that the qb potition was handed to Culpepper shows how biased you are since Harrington was signed to START during the offseason.
 
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