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New Thinking About the QB Position

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Shouright

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I think a lot of people here are down on the Lemon trade because they're still thinking about the QB position in traditional terms. We're used to having a QB who carries the team (Marino spoiled us, sure), but how many QBs in the NFL actually DO that?

Favre, Manning, McNabb -- anyone else?

So right now there is a grand total of THREE (give two -- I may be missing someone) QBs in the league who carry their teams. What are our chances of finding a QB like that? Not very good.

The new thinking about the QB position is that you get one who has the qualities to manage the offense and run your particular type of offense. Lemon has been through 3 NFL traning camps, has practiced reguarly against NFL competition, has had NFL coaches critiquing and modifying his game for three years, and has played very well in the preseason. He may be a player who can do this for us.

Answer this question -- would you rather spend a first-round pick and a ton of guaranteed money (potentially ruining the salary structure for years if he doesn't pan out) on a QB who has a VERY slim chance of warranting that salary by carrying his team, or would you rather take a much smaller risk and try to find a guy who fits the offense, plays well, and helps his team win with the assistance of the other players on the team?

Right now the 49ers future hinges on Alex Smith. If he doesn't pan out he's ruined their salary structure, and possibly their whole team via the cap problems he'd cause, if he doesn't pan out. I'm not sure I want us in that position.

I'd rather try to find the diamonds in the rough that fit our system, take a very small risk on them by comparison, and hopefully find a winner.
 
I think you're on the same page as Mueller. Mueller learned and modeled his style from the best - Ron Wolf. Both guys have/had similiar philosophies about acquiring QB's. They see the process as a numbers game. Throw several good prospects against the wall and see what sticks. Both guys hit on sleepers, Brett Favre being most notable.

I think Lemon may be one of many Mueller and Saban will throw against the wall to see if he sticks. I am in total favor of this philosophy. I would hate to wage my entire future and salary cap on one player, i.e., Alex Smith. That's why I was in favor of drafting Ronnie Brown this year. He may not rack up the numbers Cadillac will, but he does so many things so well and has such high character, he will never be a bust. He will absolutely help us win ball games - a very low risk in my opinion.

Anyway, yes I think you have it right. Because of the salary cap and free agency, the days of finding Elways and Marinos who can carry a team on their back are probably over. You have to build a team around a QB and find a good one whereever you can.
 
shouright said:
I think a lot of people here are down on the Lemon trade because they're still thinking about the QB position in traditional terms. We're used to having a QB who carries the team (Marino spoiled us, sure), but how many QBs in the NFL actually DO that?

Favre, Manning, McNabb -- anyone else?

So right now there is a grand total of THREE (give two -- I may be missing someone) QBs in the league who carry their teams. What are our chances of finding a QB like that? Not very good.

The new thinking about the QB position is that you get one who has the qualities to manage the offense and run your particular type of offense. Lemon has been through 3 NFL traning camps, has practiced reguarly against NFL competition, has had NFL coaches critiquing and modifying his game for three years, and has played very well in the preseason. He may be a player who can do this for us.

Answer this question -- would you rather spend a first-round pick and a ton of guaranteed money (potentially ruining the salary structure for years if he doesn't pan out) on a QB who has a VERY slim chance of warranting that salary by carrying his team, or would you rather take a much smaller risk and try to find a guy who fits the offense, plays well, and helps his team win with the assistance of the other players on the team?

Right now the 49ers future hinges on Alex Smith. If he doesn't pan out he's ruined their salary structure, and possibly their whole team via the cap problems he'd cause, if he doesn't pan out. I'm not sure I want us in that position.

I'd rather try to find the diamonds in the rough that fit our system, take a very small risk on them by comparison, and hopefully find a winner.
Click to expand...

Brady, Delhomme, Bledsoe

Those teams would be nothing without the QB

I agree on Manning and Favre.. but I think Philly would still be a good team if they didnt have McNabb at QB..

I see what your saying and I agree with you that I would much rather take a chance on Lemon and sign a FA than spend a top pick on a QB who is going to have the same situation except cost us a TON of money
 
shouright said:
I think a lot of people here are down on the Lemon trade because they're still thinking about the QB position in traditional terms. We're used to having a QB who carries the team (Marino spoiled us, sure), but how many QBs in the NFL actually DO that?

Favre, Manning, McNabb -- anyone else?

So right now there is a grand total of THREE (give two -- I may be missing someone) QBs in the league who carry their teams. What are our chances of finding a QB like that? Not very good.

The new thinking about the QB position is that you get one who has the qualities to manage the offense and run your particular type of offense. Lemon has been through 3 NFL traning camps, has practiced reguarly against NFL competition, has had NFL coaches critiquing and modifying his game for three years, and has played very well in the preseason. He may be a player who can do this for us.

Answer this question -- would you rather spend a first-round pick and a ton of guaranteed money (potentially ruining the salary structure for years if he doesn't pan out) on a QB who has a VERY slim chance of warranting that salary by carrying his team, or would you rather take a much smaller risk and try to find a guy who fits the offense, plays well, and helps his team win with the assistance of the other players on the team?

Right now the 49ers future hinges on Alex Smith. If he doesn't pan out he's ruined their salary structure, and possibly their whole team via the cap problems he'd cause, if he doesn't pan out. I'm not sure I want us in that position.

I'd rather try to find the diamonds in the rough that fit our system, take a very small risk on them by comparison, and hopefully find a winner.
Click to expand...

I don't think a good QB carries a team, but if a team loses a good QB they're not gonna win. If Bulger does not get hurt vs Indy it is a totally different game, you really want a QB who is there to manage the game? I hate the whole idea of that, I want a playmaker at QB. Kelly Holcomb can manage a game, does anyone honestly think a team with Kelly Holcomb starting is a legitimate contender? If i'm not mistaken the Phins have not taken a QB on the first day of the draft in like twenty years, having Marino did spoil us, but being complacent after he retired and bring in guys who can manage games has gotten the team no where. What is the difference between taking a QB high in the draft, or any other player? Teams are still gonna pay them a ton of money, if Ronnie Brown fails, the Phins salary cap would probably be ruined, but because he is not a QB it is different? I believe it is a 50/50 shot that a 1st rd Qb is a bust, but I believe that after that the probability of QB ever playing well drastically decreases. The team can draft all the 6th rd QB's it wants, but they're probably never gonna be anything more than backups, so lets keep going that route?
 
shouright said:
I think a lot of people here are down on the Lemon trade because they're still thinking about the QB position in traditional terms. We're used to having a QB who carries the team (Marino spoiled us, sure), but how many QBs in the NFL actually DO that?

Favre, Manning, McNabb -- anyone else?
Click to expand...
Vick, Bulger, Pennington, McNair, Delhomme, or basically the starter of any team not named the Ravens.
 
I also think that Lemon may actually be a good fit into Linehan's offense. I do know all this is premature, but from watching the Vikings and Miami thus far this year, it is clear that Linehan's down the field approach definitely opens things up for the quarterback to gain some good yards. Even Frerotte has busted a couple 7 yd runs. If Lemon can hit receivers down field, Linehan's system would be flawless added a devastating run game. I think Linehan may have had more to do with this trade than we all think.
 
TexasFinFan said:
Brady, Delhomme, Bledsoe

Those teams would be nothing without the QB

I agree on Manning and Favre.. but I think Philly would still be a good team if they didnt have McNabb at QB..

I see what your saying and I agree with you that I would much rather take a chance on Lemon and sign a FA than spend a top pick on a QB who is going to have the same situation except cost us a TON of money
Click to expand...

i dont see how you can say delhomme is the backbone of that team. did anyone see chris weinke lead them to a win this past week? i agree with the drafting perspective of the original poster, i would like to look for a proven QB through free agency though, not drafting one.
 
shouright said:
I think a lot of people here are down on the Lemon trade because they're still thinking about the QB position in traditional terms. We're used to having a QB who carries the team (Marino spoiled us, sure), but how many QBs in the NFL actually DO that?

Favre, Manning, McNabb -- anyone else?

So right now there is a grand total of THREE (give two -- I may be missing someone) QBs in the league who carry their teams. What are our chances of finding a QB like that? Not very good.

The new thinking about the QB position is that you get one who has the qualities to manage the offense and run your particular type of offense. Lemon has been through 3 NFL traning camps, has practiced reguarly against NFL competition, has had NFL coaches critiquing and modifying his game for three years, and has played very well in the preseason. He may be a player who can do this for us.

Answer this question -- would you rather spend a first-round pick and a ton of guaranteed money (potentially ruining the salary structure for years if he doesn't pan out) on a QB who has a VERY slim chance of warranting that salary by carrying his team, or would you rather take a much smaller risk and try to find a guy who fits the offense, plays well, and helps his team win with the assistance of the other players on the team?

Right now the 49ers future hinges on Alex Smith. If he doesn't pan out he's ruined their salary structure, and possibly their whole team via the cap problems he'd cause, if he doesn't pan out. I'm not sure I want us in that position.

I'd rather try to find the diamonds in the rough that fit our system, take a very small risk on them by comparison, and hopefully find a winner.
Click to expand...

One could say that about any player taken in the first round....including Ronnie Brown. He breaks a leg....wasted money. The idea is you expect to acquire a player that has proven talent while in college....finding a diamond is far harder than finding a lemon.
 
Dilfer is an excellent example of how you don't need a "playmaker" to win. But I think argument is somewhat double edged. You need your caretakers to make plays. AndI believe that is the frustration Gus is provoking. I believe most of us can live with his play to a certain extent. Some will argue for the sake that they just do not like Gus period. But it has become very appearent that Gus' accuracy is suspect. And as posted by another FH member... If Gus hit some of those deep passes, we wouldn't be discussing it.
You don't need a playmaker out of your QB.. but ther are critical times in every game where your QB has to make plays.
 
shouright said:
I think a lot of people here are down on the Lemon trade because they're still thinking about the QB position in traditional terms. We're used to having a QB who carries the team (Marino spoiled us, sure), but how many QBs in the NFL actually DO that?

Favre, Manning, McNabb -- anyone else?

So right now there is a grand total of THREE (give two -- I may be missing someone) QBs in the league who carry their teams. What are our chances of finding a QB like that? Not very good.

The new thinking about the QB position is that you get one who has the qualities to manage the offense and run your particular type of offense. Lemon has been through 3 NFL traning camps, has practiced reguarly against NFL competition, has had NFL coaches critiquing and modifying his game for three years, and has played very well in the preseason. He may be a player who can do this for us.

Answer this question -- would you rather spend a first-round pick and a ton of guaranteed money (potentially ruining the salary structure for years if he doesn't pan out) on a QB who has a VERY slim chance of warranting that salary by carrying his team, or would you rather take a much smaller risk and try to find a guy who fits the offense, plays well, and helps his team win with the assistance of the other players on the team?

Right now the 49ers future hinges on Alex Smith. If he doesn't pan out he's ruined their salary structure, and possibly their whole team via the cap problems he'd cause, if he doesn't pan out. I'm not sure I want us in that position.

I'd rather try to find the diamonds in the rough that fit our system, take a very small risk on them by comparison, and hopefully find a winner.
Click to expand...

I agree with your post, and this philosophy to a point. The question I have is, does that mean you only keep trying to uncover QB's who may not look like much at the beginning. Under this scenario would you not trade for a guy like Phillip Rivers, because of the cost/risk factor. I think if you have a chance to get a guy like Rivers, Carr, you do it. The fact is..you need a very good QB to win a championship in this league. Has it happend before where you didnt need one? Yes, but you can count the times that has happend on two fingers. We need, either through draft or trade, to get a QB with pedigree.
 
Canadianfishfan said:
Dilfer is an excellent example of how you don't need a "playmaker" to win. But I think argument is somewhat double edged. You need your caretakers to make plays. AndI believe that is the frustration Gus is provoking. I believe most of us can live with his play to a certain extent. Some will argue for the sake that they just do not like Gus period. But it has become very appearent that Gus' accuracy is suspect. And as posted by another FH member... If Gus hit some of those deep passes, we wouldn't be discussing it.
You don't need a playmaker out of your QB.. but ther are critical times in every game where your QB has to make plays.
Click to expand...

I definitely agree. The deep balls are going to be there for the taking every game simply based on our running backs. If Gus hits just two a game, Linehan would really open us his offense. I think just has Saban unveiled all of his defensive schemes, I think Linehan has definitely been limiting by Gus inaccuracy. Plus the fact that most possessions involve first and/or second and long because of a penalty.
 
Just wondering....if this Lemon is so good....why did S.D. dump him for Feeley and a 7th round pick? Everyone gives our GM credit for finding QB's....the last time I looked...the Chargers didn't have chumps making their draft selections. If he was better than Rivers....S.D. would have traded Rivers away...instead of eating cap money for a QB...sitting on the bench. Beware Greeks baring gifts....especially Lemons.
 
fishypete said:
Just wondering....if this Lemon is so good....why did S.D. dump him for Feeley and a 7th round pick? Everyone gives our GM credit for finding QB's....the last time I looked...the Chargers didn't have chumps making their draft selections. If he was better than Rivers....S.D. would have traded Rivers away...instead of eating cap money for a QB...sitting on the bench. Beware Greeks baring gifts....especially Lemons.
Click to expand...

Point is, we really dont know anything about Lemon. He may or may not turn out to be good. At least maybe he can be a good backup. Who knows? Why not take the chance, he only makes slightly less than $400,000. Its worth a shot.
 
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