Norv Turner is so overated.

[Coral Reefer]

Originally posted by Muck


http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=401225

One of the most important factors was Jay Fiedler. He was a square peg in a round hole (Norv's offense). Much better fit for Gailey's offense.

Fiedler won't fit in anyone's offense IMO.
You'll see that is true after he leaves here.
Norv was a victim of that and he had a team in Washington that he had to basically rebuild. By the time he got them back on track he had the plug pulled on him.

 

[texasPHINSfan]

i disagree.

Fiedler worked in our system and got us to the playoffs the two years Norv wasn't here under Fiedler's QB-ing.

we didn't go far those years b/c of our lackluster running game and no standout WR's. when we finally got a running game and good WR's, what went wrong? was it the proven (at the time) quarterback we had or the NEW OC? what was the variable in this experiment? Fiedler was the constant. we went 11-5 for TWO years with Fiedler without Norv. with Norv we go 9-7 and 10-6 WITH a running game and better receivers.

i think i see the problem.

 

[Coral Reefer]

Originally posted by texasPHINSfan

but collier brings in a new fresh person, more run-oriented (which is good -

so overall i think its a fresh change.

More run oriented?

First off...... Do you know this for a fact?
Yes he was a RB coach but does that mean he will be run oriented in his play calling?


Secondly......
Why on earth would a more run oriented coach be good when the area of the offense we need improvement in is the pass?
Makes little sense to hope he is a more run oriented OC taking that into consideration dosen't it.

I am worried that he might mirror Wanny's thoughts of very conservative offense. Seeing that he was a RB coach does weigh into the reason I worry. We obviously need an OC that has a mind of his own, wants to be balanced but aggressive but NOT a Wanny clone of conservatism.

I am optimisitc because I know that just because he was a RB coach that dosen't mean that his philosophy of offense will be conservative and mostly running. I am also optimistic because he had a chance to learn Norv's system which incorporates a lot of passing. I'm optimistic because Collier should have a different QB allowing him to call passing plays without nail biting fear of what will happen. I am also optimistic because Dan Marino has been brought in and I'm hoping that he was brought in by Mr. H to make sure this coaching staff gets more aggressive.

I'm hoping the optimistic points are what will happen next year and not the points I'm worried about.

 

[Coral Reefer]

Originally posted by texasPHINSfan
i disagree.

Fiedler worked in our system and got us to the playoffs the two years Norv wasn't here under Fiedler's QB-ing.

we didn't go far those years b/c of our lackluster running game and no standout WR's. when we finally got a running game and good WR's, what went wrong? was it the proven (at the time) quarterback we had or the NEW OC? what was the variable in this experiment? Fiedler was the constant. we went 11-5 for TWO years with Fiedler without Norv. with Norv we go 9-7 and 10-6 WITH a running game and better receivers.

i think i see the problem.

The coaches admitted themselves that a large portion of Norv's playbook had to be abandoned because of Jay's limitations.

How do you explain that?

Jay did not get us into the playoffs.
The team got into the playoffs in previous years despite Jay Fiedler. I think those facts are quite obvious now.

 

[NavyFishFan]

Originally posted by Trekbiz


More run oriented?

First off...... Do you know this for a fact?
Yes he was a RB coach but does that mean he will be run oriented in his play calling?


Secondly......
Why on earth would a more run oriented coach be good when the area of the offense we need improvement in is the pass?
Makes little sense to hope he is a more run oriented OC taking that into consideration dosen't it.

I am worried that he might mirror Wanny's thoughts of very conservative offense. Seeing that he was a RB coach does weigh into the reason I worry. We obviously need an OC that has a mind of his own, wants to be balanced but aggressive but NOT a Wanny clone of conservatism.

I am optimisitc because I know that just because he was a RB coach that dosen't mean that his philosophy of offense will be conservative and mostly running. I am also optimistic because he had a chance to learn Norv's system which incorporates a lot of passing. I'm optimistic because Collier should have a different QB allowing him to call passing plays without nail biting fear of what will happen. I am also optimistic because Dan Marino has been brought in and I'm hoping that he was brought in by Mr. H to make sure this coaching staff gets more aggressive.

I'm hoping the optimistic points are what will happen next year and not the points I'm worried about.

Hear hear.

To assume Collier will call what Wanny would call would be to assume he don't have a brain and his own thoughts. Has anybody worked for somebody and thought to themselves, "well...I'd do it THIS way."

I've done it frequently.

 

[Coral Reefer]

Originally posted by texasPHINSfan
Fiedler was the constant.

The only consistent thing you can say about Fiedler is that he was here for 4 years...... That's the only thing he was consistent at. He certainly wasn't consistent in his play.

 

[texasPHINSfan]

Originally posted by Trekbiz


More run oriented?

First off...... Do you know this for a fact?
Yes he was a RB coach but does that mean he will be run oriented in his play calling?

yes i do know this for a fact, he said so in an interview following his hiring.

Secondly......
Why on earth would a more run oriented coach be good when the area of the offense we need improvement in is the pass?
Makes little sense to hope he is a more run oriented OC taking that into consideration dosen't it.

just because we need help in the passing department doesn't mean we have to be a passing team. the panthers needed help there, got delhomme who isn't a peyton manning - but the running game got them there didn't it? we need to improve the passing game, but we also need to improve the running game.... it ain't perfect. i think a RB coach who KNEW what we needed but didn't have the say or power to do anything about it might help. granted, he is not making personnel decisions, but he can certiainly design up **** to make what we have work in the run department. as far as the passing game, it couldn't be worse than it was, so whats the problem???

I am worried that he might mirror Wanny's thoughts of very conservative offense. Seeing that he was a RB coach does weigh into the reason I worry. We obviously need an OC that has a mind of his own, wants to be balanced but aggressive but NOT a Wanny clone of conservatism.

wanny has come under serious fire about the last two seasons , and danny is the new VP - i see a change of winds and i don't think this "conservativsim" is going to keep on going. the best part about this remember, is collier KNOWS williams and what he is capable of - he also knows the OL and what they are capable of. Norv, clearly did not (well... maybe he did the first year). If collier needs help figuring out what to draw up for passing plays, he can talk to the "genius" Jerry Sullivan! he'll know what his WRs can do!

I am optimisitc because I know that just because he was a RB coach that dosen't mean that his philosophy of offense will be conservative and mostly running.

since when do mostly running and "conservative" go hand in hand? you can have a nice happy mixture of both. besides he talked about strengthening the designed run plays to work in ricky's favor.... t his means they may work this year, b/c a 3.5 running average does not make me a happy man.

 

[Muck]

Originally posted by Phishstix
coaches should coach according to their personnel.

That's my point. We didn't have the proper personnel to be successful in any system.

What offense is going to cover up our shoddy OL?? What offense is going to compensate for the fact that we have one WR?? Or better yet, what coordinator??

Yeah, maybe you get Fiedler outside the pocket more often. But that cuts the field in half. And then Brian Griese comes in. He's a statue. So he's a better fit for Norv's offense, as he sits in the pocket.. But the OL gets him killed.

Norv got a raw deal here. Even if we only gave him a better OL, it still would have produced much better results.

But I must ask, what would you have done differently/better??

 

[Gladsadmad]

Originally posted by Muck


That's my point. We didn't have the proper personnel to be successful in any system.

What offense is going to cover up our shoddy OL?? What offense is going to compensate for the fact that we have one WR?? Or better yet, what coordinator??

Yeah, maybe you get Fiedler outside the pocket more often. But that cuts the field in half. And then Brian Griese comes in. He's a statue. So he's a better fit for Norv's offense, as he sits in the pocket.. But the OL gets him killed.

Norv got a raw deal here. Even if we only gave him a better OL, it still would have produced much better results.

But I must ask, what would you have done differently/better??

If I was Norv Turner..I would've stood up for myself. Norv was friends of Wannstedt's right? He should've told him flat out that Fiedler is not the QB for the system that he lives by. Maybe everything you said was right...about Norv being a great OC..and how his players were not good enough for his system. If that was the case he needs to grow some balls. He needed to speak up. He needed to tell Wannstedt that the offense was in dire need of playmakers. He needed to tell Wanny that the offensive line was not good enough to run his offense. For that, there are no excuses.

It's also been stated by Wannstedt that he purposely cut down Turner's playbook because he had little faith in the players. I know that Wanny has the ultimate say, but Turner should've gotten out after one season if he knew that it was a lost cause.

Now, if Turner DID tell Wanny all of these things and he just ignored him and drafted & signed help for the defense..then you are right, Turner got screwed and I see why he left (even though he should've quit after 2002 if Wannstedt was ignoring him). If not..Turner is a wimp.

 

[Gladsadmad]

And if you think that Turner decided to make the best out of what he's given..then he failed. Unless of course he was just a puppet while Wanny make all the calls. We'll never know.

 

[Danny]

none of this really matters anymore. He's gone and now we have a new OC. Is time for everyone here to move on and lets root for the new guy cos he's on OUR team. The past is the past and guess what guys? We haven't won in 31 years so what's so bad about having a new OC? What do we have to lose anyway? I think Norv was good but he's gone and he's not coming back. Move on!!

Ozzy rules!!

 

[Phishstix]

Originally posted by Muck


That's my point. We didn't have the proper personnel to be successful in any system.

What offense is going to cover up our shoddy OL?? What offense is going to compensate for the fact that we have one WR?? Or better yet, what coordinator??

Yeah, maybe you get Fiedler outside the pocket more often. But that cuts the field in half. And then Brian Griese comes in. He's a statue. So he's a better fit for Norv's offense, as he sits in the pocket.. But the OL gets him killed.

Norv got a raw deal here. Even if we only gave him a better OL, it still would have produced much better results.

But I must ask, what would you have done differently/better??

the OL had a great year in '02, yet the offense still fell short. if norv was the great OC ya'll make him out to be, he would have fielded an offense that could hold up the fort during that 2-4 stretch without fiedler. and don't forget the 3 straight passes and passing from the 2 yard line in foxboro the past two seasons. what OC makes calls like that. it is a moot point now, and good luck and good riddens to him

 

[Shula Fan]

No one was saying our running game was bad when Lamar ran for 200 yards on that playoff game.

As far as Collier goes, I wish him well. I think he will call the game his way as IMO most OC's do. If his system works he gets a head coaching job out of it...if not he gets demoted to another team ala Trestman and co.

I can understand why Lukin thinks that way. Norv could of thrown it more to the TE and FB because he knew Jay couldn't connect on the long ball.

 

[A.J. Fin]

Originally posted by RUDEbyallMEANS
Muck took the words out of my mouth..

What he said should be enough said..

Miami losing Norv Turner will hurt..

Yes, because Miami's offense was SUCH a powerhouse the last few years!
How ever will be match the numbers we've racked up with Norv? Oh my, it's gonna be hard to come in LAST in passing again..we might end up "below last" next year.
And the offense was SO innovative under Norv! So unpredictable. It was amazing how every once in a while he would switch from run-run-pass, run-run-pass, run-run-pass to suddenly run-pass-run!
Yupp...gonna be tuff to repace ole Norv!

 

[A.J. Fin]

Wow...silence. Guess those words were the was the bottom line.
:banana: