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Official stat help, please!

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pilotfish

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While re-viewing the Pats game, I was specifically looking for the play where it appeared Carter sacked Cassel, but the play was subsequently changed from a "sack" to a "no gain". Well, the play certainly did lose yardage, so I looked it up on NFL.com. In the play-by-play the official stats, quote:

3-10-NE9 (12:29) (Shotgun) M.Cassel FUMBLES (Aborted) at NE 9, and recovers at NE 9. M.Cassel to NE 11 for 2 yards (K.Carter, Y.Bell).

4-11-NE11 (12:05) J.Miller punts 50 yards to MIA 39, Center-L.Paxton. W.Welker to MIA 47 for 8 yards (J.Sanders).

Obviously going from 3-10 to 4-11 (they have the LOS totally screwed up!) shows the loss of a yard on the third down play. Even tho it was clearly obvious Cassel's intention was to throw (he recovered the snap easily, looked for a receiver then started to scramble and went down), does the fact that he fumbled the snap change the official scoring to a running play vs. a passing play? Seems like BS to me. Looked like a sack, looked like a team record, looked like we tied SEA for the NFL lead...
 
IIRC, it's completely subjective reasoning by Stats, Inc. (who, again, IIRC, tallies the stats for the NFL).

I agree it seems bogus sometimes.
 
sbh1602 said:
IIRC, it's completely subjective reasoning by Stats, Inc. (who, again, IIRC, tallies the stats for the NFL).

I agree it seems bogus sometimes.
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LOL! You're really not 74 years old are you.....
 
pilotfish said:
While re-viewing the Pats game, I was specifically looking for the play where it appeared Carter sacked Cassel, but the play was subsequently changed from a "sack" to a "no gain". Well, the play certainly did lose yardage, so I looked it up on NFL.com. In the play-by-play the official stats, quote:

3-10-NE9 (12:29) (Shotgun) M.Cassel FUMBLES (Aborted) at NE 9, and recovers at NE 9. M.Cassel to NE 11 for 2 yards (K.Carter, Y.Bell).

4-11-NE11 (12:05) J.Miller punts 50 yards to MIA 39, Center-L.Paxton. W.Welker to MIA 47 for 8 yards (J.Sanders).

Obviously going from 3-10 to 4-11 (they have the LOS totally screwed up!) shows the loss of a yard on the third down play. Even tho it was clearly obvious Cassel's intention was to throw (he recovered the snap easily, looked for a receiver then started to scramble and went down), does the fact that he fumbled the snap change the official scoring to a running play vs. a passing play? Seems like BS to me. Looked like a sack, looked like a team record, looked like we tied SEA for the NFL lead...
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No, it shows a gain of 2 yards. The 4th down play was from the 11, which also shows a gain of 2 yards. The reference to 4th and 11 is obviously a typo or otherwise incorrect.
 
Fineas said:
No, it shows a gain of 2 yards. The 4th down play was from the 11, which also shows a gain of 2 yards. The reference to 4th and 11 is obviously a typo or otherwise incorrect.
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As I said, the LOS stats are wrong. The play clearly resulted in the loss of more that a full yard. If possible, take a look at the game tape. I have it on TiVo, so there's no doubt...
 
The mistake is that NFL.com said he fumbled at the 9 and recovered at the 9 and then progressed 2 yards to the 11. In actual fact, he was hit at the 10 and the ball hit the ground at the 9, so technically he fumbled it at the 10, however it was the natural reaction of the statisticians to refer to the 9 yard line due to the 2 yard gain to the 11.
 
Many, many...many years ago (I was really, really...REALLY young) Mercury Morris ended the season with 993 (if memory serves, I was REALLY young!) yards. Upon further review by the Dolphins statisticians, they came up with a play that was originally ruled a lateral for a 7 yard run loss that was in fact a forward pass (imagine that!!) and accordingly, should have been ruled a pass completion--for a seven yard loss. The ruling gave Merc exactly 1000 rushing yards for the season thus giving the 'Phins the first two 1000 yard rushers in one season in NFL history.

If anybody here has an inside guy at HQ, or even the local paper, let's get this sack thing changed!
 
sbh1602 said:
IIRC, it's completely subjective reasoning by Stats, Inc. (who, again, IIRC, tallies the stats for the NFL).

I agree it seems bogus sometimes.
Click to expand...

Kind of like errors in baseball huh? I never gave it a second thought, but if that's all true, it should be a sack. An intended passing play ended in negative yardage with the passer being tackled behind scrimmage. There should be a definition.
 
pilotfish said:
Many, many...many years ago (I was really, really...REALLY young) Mercury Morris ended the season with 993 (if memory serves, I was REALLY young!) yards. Upon further review by the Dolphins statisticians, they came up with a play that was originally ruled a lateral for a 7 yard run loss that was in fact a forward pass (imagine that!!) and accordingly, should have been ruled a pass completion--for a seven yard loss. The ruling gave Merc exactly 1000 rushing yards for the season thus giving the 'Phins the first two 1000 yard rushers in one season in NFL history.

If anybody here has an inside guy at HQ, or even the local paper, let's get this sack thing changed!
Click to expand...

I was at that Dolphin game. It was the correct reversal yet Morris and the Dolphins took surreal leaguewide grief since it was long after the fact. Morrall threw a swing pass to the left that started forward but was deflected maybe one foot after leaving Morrall's hand.

My memory is the ball went backward on the ground and Morris fell on it like a fumble. I don't think he caught it. When the refs ruled it a lateral and therefore a fumble and loss of yardage instead of incomplete pass, the fans and the Dolphins were outraged. So it wasn't like it was a tame play that wasn't immediately controversial.

The ridiculous aspect was it took until a few days after the season to ammend it, and to the exact number Mercury needed for 1000. We kept feeding him the ball late against the Colts in the finale but he couldn't get the number.

The Dolphin play in question against New England clearly lost about 4 feet. I taped the game and looked at it more than once. I doubt it's a conspiracy just a poor job of rounding where the play began and where it ended. They have a specific criteria for that but I work in stats and sometimes our numbers don't jive with official numbers because it's like baseball official scorers, some are more competent than others with slightly different methodology.
 
Awsi Dooger said:
I was at that Dolphin game. It was the correct reversal yet Morris and the Dolphins took surreal leaguewide grief since it was long after the fact. Morrall threw a swing pass to the left that started forward but was deflected maybe one foot after leaving Morrall's hand.

My memory is the ball went backward on the ground and Morris fell on it like a fumble. I don't think he caught it. When the refs ruled it a lateral and therefore a fumble and loss of yardage instead of incomplete pass, the fans and the Dolphins were outraged. So it wasn't like it was a tame play that wasn't immediately controversial.

The ridiculous aspect was it took until a few days after the season to ammend it, and to the exact number Mercury needed for 1000. We kept feeding him the ball late against the Colts in the finale but he couldn't get the number.

The Dolphin play in question against New England clearly lost about 4 feet. I taped the game and looked at it more than once. I doubt it's a conspiracy just a poor job of rounding where the play began and where it ended. They have a specific criteria for that but I work in stats and sometimes our numbers don't jive with official numbers because it's like baseball official scorers, some are more competent than others with slightly different methodology.
Click to expand...

Man, I'm truly impressed! Your recall is unbelieveable. I am in awe, and I mean that sincerely!
 
Ross said:
Miami has already petition for that sack. To my knowledge, the league hasn't made a ruling on it yet...
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Thanks for the info. I'd be stunned and amazed if it's not ruled a sack! Truth be told, I'm often stunned and amazed tho...
 
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