Our base defense is a 3-4 ? | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Our base defense is a 3-4 ?

In the first half of the Steelers game, this is how our D was aligned:

22 times 4-3
4 times 3-4
5 times the DE played on the line but didn't have his hand on the ground. Basically, a 4-3 responsibility with the ability to show 3-4.
 
PhinstiGator said:
In the first half of the Steelers game, this is how our D was aligned:

22 times 4-3
4 times 3-4
5 times the DE played on the line but didn't have his hand on the ground. Basically, a 4-3 responsibility with the ability to show 3-4.
Click to expand...

Do you know what a 3-4 defense even is? Three down linemen, four linebackers. If a DE does not have his hand on the ground but rushes, he's a linebacker.
 
Disgustipate said:
Do you know what a 3-4 defense even is? Three down linemen, four linebackers. If a DE does not have his hand on the ground but rushes, he's a linebacker.
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Ummmmm..... NO!

Where the DE places or doesn't place his hand does NOT dictate the type of defense. The job responsibilities of each position and their alignment does.

If it were that easy, we could just say okay, Jason... no more hands on the ground, and Voila!!! we have a 3-4 defense, but it doesn't quite work that way.
 
Disgustipate said:
Do you know what a 3-4 defense even is? Three down linemen, four linebackers. If a DE does not have his hand on the ground but rushes, he's a linebacker.
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Yes, I was just going to say I think it is obvious what the problem is with Phinstigator. He does not know how to recognize a 3-4 defense. It's not something to be embarrassed about because lord only knows the last time we saw a 3-4 around here was a looooooong time ago.

Disgustipate you are correct. Down linemen are counted purely by whether they have their hand down on the ground at the line of scrimmage or not. That is why I was discussing this 5-2 business with Dupree. It looks like a 5-2 because we've got 5 men sitting on the line of scrimmage. But, two of those guys consistently are linebackers that do not have their hands planted on the ground.

Just because Jason Taylor is in the game, it does not make it a 4-3. When he doesn't have his hand on the ground, he's a linebacker.
 
grooves12 said:
Ummmmm..... NO!

Where the DE places or doesn't place his hand does NOT dictate the type of defense. The job responsibilities of each position and their alignment does.

If it were that easy, we could just say okay, Jason... no more hands on the ground, and Voila!!! we have a 3-4 defense, but it doesn't quite work that way.
Click to expand...

Actually it does. Sorry to break it to you. Having your hands off the ground signifies that you are not a down lineman any longer. You are now playing the position of linebacker. If you rush, you're a blitzing linebacker. If you drop back, you're in coverage. If you stay where you are, you're probably shadowing. Having your hand on the ground or not on the ground is the very thing that defines a 4-3 vs. a 3-4. In the 3-4 that the Steelers and Patriots (and pretty much everyone who runs a 3-4) runs, at least one outside linebacker is usually blitzing on every play, meaning they will end up with 4 passrushers (at least) on most every play. That don't make them a 4-3 defense.
 
ckparrothead said:
Actually it does. Sorry to break it to you. Having your hands off the ground signifies that you are not a down lineman any longer. You are now playing the position of linebacker. If you rush, you're a blitzing linebacker. If you drop back, you're in coverage. If you stay where you are, you're probably shadowing. Having your hand on the ground or not on the ground is the very thing that defines a 4-3 vs. a 3-4. In the 3-4 that the Steelers and Patriots (and pretty much everyone who runs a 3-4) runs, at least one outside linebacker is usually blitzing on every play, meaning they will end up with 4 passrushers (at least) on most every play. That don't make them a 4-3 defense.
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You know I have a feeling no matter how in depth of an explanation I go into, you are going to disagree on this, so I won't go into defining the differences in each positions responsibilites and alignments in each defense and what REALLY determines whether it is a 4-3 or 3-4... but I will leave a simple explanation.

Having your hand down or not is a TECHNIQUE. The technique you use at your position does not define your position, you RESPONSIBLITY does.

There is a HUGE difference... that would mean that when we used the "cobra position" for Jason Taylor last year that that was a 3-4 alignment, and it was not... it was still a 4-3.
 
grooves12 said:
You know I have a feeling no matter how in depth of an explanation I go into, you are going to disagree on this, so I won't go into defining the differences in each positions responsibilites and alignments in each defense and what REALLY determines whether it is a 4-3 or 3-4... but I will leave a simple explanation.

Having your hand down or not is a TECHNIQUE. The technique you use at your position does not define your position, you RESPONSIBLITY does.

There is a HUGE difference... that would mean that when we used the "cobra position" for Jason Taylor last year that that was a 3-4 alignment, and it was not... it was still a 4-3.
Click to expand...

Actually if you want to be technical about it, that formation can't really be called a 4-3 or a 3-4. And I thought the formation you're thinking of was called the Tiger formation, not Cobra...but whatever.

If you want to call having your hand down on the ground or not a "technique" then that's fine, it's up to you. It just makes very little sense for any down lineman to EVER not have his hand down on the ground for any reason unless he's in the middle of a stunt (like the Tiger, where Taylor starts out in a down stance, lifts up and runs to the middle of the DL and gets a running head start toward the line of scrimmage).

In the 3-4 technique that the Dolphins play, we've got four guys who do not put their hands on the line of scrimmage. That makes them linebackers. Linebackers can have a variety of duties that coincide with duties normally associated with defensive linemen, and defensive linemen can have a variety of duties that coincide with duties normally associated with linebackers. We're arguing semantics here because you're saying that a guy with his hand off the ground can still be considered a "defensive lineman" if he pass rushes. But 3-4 teams pass rush their outside linebackers on a consistent basis.

So, uh what...we do everything the same as a defense that is considered to be a "3-4" defense but because Jason Taylor use to be a defensive end we're considered to be a 4-3? Please, anyone who sees Jason Taylor out covering wide receivers and running backs deep down the field and still calls that a 4-3 is just nuts.

You find me a defensive coach that considers a guy in a sitting position with his hand off the ground to still be a defensive lineman instead of a linebacker, and then I'll admit you are right. Until then you have a right to your opinion, and I have a right to be correct.
 
I can't wait for Sunday and I'm sure we might see some new things on our Defense because Saban I think has a few tricks for this game to keep teams confused this year.
 
I think whats throwing a LOT of people off is JT. Everyone is so used to JT being a DE that when they see him in the game, they think its a 4-3. I was confused at first and I thought we were playing a 4-3 and then having the strong side LB play more up to the LOS

Im not calling our defense a 3-4 or a 4-3 because to me it seems more like a hybrid of both. I have seen tendencies of both defenses and I do see the 5-2 that CK is talking about, which is essentially what he said as 3 DLman and 2 OLBs on the LOS.

However I havent seen that being played all the time. Truthfully, after the draft and the signings we made, we definately have the personnel to play a full on 3-4 defense.

I will stand to what I said numerous times. Before the draft and signings, we did not have the personnel to run a 3-4 base defense. I was very adamant about that pre-draft. I never ever said we wouldnt run a 3-4, I just stated we didnt have the personnel to run it. I thought we were a year away from running a 3-4 base defense. I was planning on Crowder taking a year and playing MLB for us with Thomas. However I am delighted with his progress...


Anyways I actually predicted the Carter signing before it happened and said if we were going to run mixed fronts, Carter would be a great pivot player to allow us to do that and if he came here, he would play more of a DE position than DT....... I'll search for that post cause Megatron called me out on it last week and I delivered the goods to him. :lol:

Wassup Megatron. :lol:

Ive also spoken out a lot about drafting/getting a true NT player so we can play a true 3-4 in the future and I was very against Corey Simon and thought he would not fit in here (as some of you know :lol: )

Holliday DEFINATELY caught me as a suprise, I thought he was going to only be a 3-4 DE which in reality, he really is in our defense. Although he is labeled as DT on the depth chart, in a 3-4 front... or a 5-2 front, he really is the 3-4 DE.

Anyways back on track, dont dismay people, Im still confused about our defense because I have only been able to see it a few times in the preseason. Once we get acouple games on our belt Im sure we will all understand it a lot better.
 
CK...as usual, I think you hit the nail on the head....the fact that Saban has always run a base 4-3 is borne from a couple of facts...1) the 3-4 is a difficult D to run in the college ranks...It is complicated and with the turnover of players in the collegiant ranks makes it difficult to run effectively. Ahh, you say, he didn't run it in Cleveland either...well, the reason there was that he simply did not have the personnel to run it effectively. 2) He doesn't have the proper personnel to run it here. He has somewhat rectified that, but admittedly is somewhat lean on the right mix of DL.

But he and BB did utilize different variations of the 3-4, since BB ran that D with Parcells and it was successful for them (of course LT, Johnson, Reasons, Banks and Carson made that very easy to do...) At MSU, he ran variations of the 4-3 D, but with mixed results and he didn't carry it over to LSU...

The JJ/Wanny 4-3 is predicated on press coverage from the CBs, the DL taking on the OL and the speedy LBs filling the gaps for run support. The DEs in the 4-3 are best suited to be speed rushers (JT, the guy from the Colts, etc). These guys are traditionally in the 250-275 lb range and quick off the corners. The 2 DTs job is to occupy as many other OL as they can. Collapse the middle, and keep the QB from scrambling outside the pocket...The safeties jobs are for run support and crossing routes...The entire defense is really predicated on speed . (except maybe the DTs...) and great cover corners. The positive, is that you get more pressure on the QBs, the CBs bump the routes of the WRs and get them off their route tree...it was designed to combat the WCO, short passing game...JJ's innovation on this scheme was the addition of speed at every position, something he learned at UM and perfected in Dallas...

What teams have figured out, is that if you tie up the MLB, you find cutback lanes for your RBs (see K. Maewae against ZT) and run you TEs and slot recievers straight upfield, you can beat the safeties...The Colts and Rams are perfect examples of this...because most teams cannot cover the WOs with the cover corners (and the tightened interference rules), but even when they do, the middle becomes wide open for less athletic safeties covering the faster TEs and slot recievers...

The 3-4 spreads out the coverage of the WRs, TEs, and slot guys amongst the 4 DBs and widens the lanes of both the DL and Lbs to cover the short passing game and all the running lanes, eliminating the problem of the RBs using the cutback lanes...It also, on passing downs puts the pressure on the QB to read the coverage correctly...If the OE falls back into pass coverage he takes the RB or TE outlet passes away, with the DBs still having full coverage of the WRs and slot guys...the flexibility of the BB/Saban D is that you can move into and out of the base 4-3 and base 3-4 at the snap or presnap increasing the confusion of the QB...

The other thing that has developed, IMO, is where teams have been thinking that they can get away with less-than-stellar QBs (the Dilfers, Bollers, etc) with the 4-3 D and the WCO where you are throwing dump offs and crossing patterns all day long...the Pats have shown, thru their D that you need to have a Favre, McNabb, Manning passing the ball because of the confusion in reads that result from the flexible 3-4,/4-3 Ds...Just my opinion on that one, but it seems we're not going to see the Frerottes and Dilfers of the world taking a team to the SB...

BB's other advantage is that he has had to face the best mind in O in probably the last 15 years with C. Weiss and has had the advantage of utilizing Saban's defensive mind to develope a D to control his own offense. Of course in the last 4 years, every OC has strived to copy Weiss and played right into BB's hands...

Whether you call it a base 4-3 flexing into a 3-4 in certain situations or a base 3-4 flexing into 4-3...it doesn't matter...it's the same concept...The development of players has also changed what can be done with Ds as well...you now see these guys coming out of college that are 6-3 and 275 lbs that run 4.5's and 4.6's, as fast as RBs...These OLBs OEs, or DEs types with that speed can be used in pass coverage, where traditionally these guys ran closer to 4.8s and slower...Heck, we have LTs that run 4.8s nowadays...
 
Totally agree with CK and Larry. This is a good enough thread to be bumped back to the top. Excellent, accurate explanations imo.
 
Just to add something that I found after a search with Google:

There are currently two popular defensives in the NFL, confusingly called the 4-3 and the 3-4. These defenses are quite different, with different strengths and weaknesses. The numbers refer to the number of down linemen and linebackers. A down lineman is a guy who has a hand on the ground just before the ball snaps. Having a hand on the ground lets him drop his hips lower and get a better drive against an offensive lineman, however it also limits his view of the play and his ability to react to the sides. Normally, a defense has several down linemen on the field to compete directly with the offensive linemen, and several linebackers on the field, to compete with the tight end, fullback, and running back. The defensive linemen will have a hand on the ground, preparing to do battle with a 310 pound offensive lineman. The linebackers will be standing up, preparing to read the play and react to the actions of the tight end, fullback, running back, and quarterback. In the 4-3 defense, you use four defensive linemen and three linebackers. In the 3-4 defense, it's three defensive linemen and four linebackers.
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The above is from http://football.calsci.com/DefensiveLine.html), and according to it, CK is correct in his statement that whether the player places a hand on the ground signifies whether he is a DL or LB.
 
I was under the impression JT was playing the "elephant" type position like Haley did for the 49rs and hence the Open End label could someone explain to me at what point the "OE" becomes an OLB ?? formation wise or whatever..
 
zeke0123 said:
I was under the impression JT was playing the "elephant" type position like Haley did for the 49rs and hence the Open End label could someone explain to me at what point the "OE" becomes an OLB ?? formation wise or whatever..
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I guess it is best explained by the statement that an OE is a guy who plays a hybrid DE/OLB position and will alternate from a down lineman on one play with his hand on the ground, to a linebacker on another play with no hands on the ground. Even when his hand is on the ground he is more likely to have creative responsibilities compared to other down linemen. For instance, Taylor may have his hand on the ground, but his responsibility may be to sit in a zone and cover or tackle anyone that comes in it. Or it may be to release forward and rush the passer. As a linebacker, without his hand on the ground, he is more likely to have defensive linemen duties (ie. rushing the passer) than he is to have the same coverage responsibilities of the 3 other linebackers.
 
ckparrothead said:
I guess it is best explained by the statement that an OE is a guy who plays a hybrid DE/OLB position and will alternate from a down lineman on one play with his hand on the ground, to a linebacker on another play with no hands on the ground. Even when his hand is on the ground he is more likely to have creative responsibilities compared to other down linemen. For instance, Taylor may have his hand on the ground, but his responsibility may be to sit in a zone and cover or tackle anyone that comes in it. Or it may be to release forward and rush the passer. As a linebacker, without his hand on the ground, he is more likely to have defensive linemen duties (ie. rushing the passer) than he is to have the same coverage responsibilities of the 3 other linebackers.
Click to expand...
Thanks CK im still confused :goof: Its like Derrick Thomas was an OLB for KC when they ran the 3-4 but he ALWAYS had his hand on the ground.. the Saints the same way with Ricky Jackson but he was an OLB I always figured the OLB designation was what mattered but Pittsburgh they always stand up.... :confused:
 
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