PFF: Defensive Tackle Buyer Beware list | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

PFF: Defensive Tackle Buyer Beware list

Just another subjective glob. I'm not more impressed or less impressed than any similar version. I was hoping to see numerical backing but it was all viewpoint.

IMO, the metrics can be very helpful to isolate edge guys. Not so much with interior defenders. This is from Pro Football Focus. The website Football Outsiders recently published it's SackSEER forecast for this draft crop. I'm not sure if that's been posted around here. It's the same type of thing that has been done on other sites for many years, using workout numbers in key categories to develop an explosiveness measure. Very successful recent history. It's the angle that dismissed Dion Jordan as not special and not worth a premium selection. This year Fowler of the Gators is not held in high regard by the numbers, even though he'll be picked very early.
 
I like Shelton way more more than Goldman, if we decide to put him next to Suh up front, but I still think we go WR, or trade down.
 
Just another subjective glob. I'm not more impressed or less impressed than any similar version. I was hoping to see numerical backing but it was all viewpoint.

IMO, the metrics can be very helpful to isolate edge guys. Not so much with interior defenders. This is from Pro Football Focus. The website Football Outsiders recently published it's SackSEER forecast for this draft crop. I'm not sure if that's been posted around here. It's the same type of thing that has been done on other sites for many years, using workout numbers in key categories to develop an explosiveness measure. Very successful recent history. It's the angle that dismissed Dion Jordan as not special and not worth a premium selection. This year Fowler of the Gators is not held in high regard by the numbers, even though he'll be picked very early.

You have to be an extremely explosive human to rush the passer in the NFL. Now you can measure that with your eyeballs, or any number you want, but the fact remains, if you're not explosive you can't rush.
 
Just another subjective glob. I'm not more impressed or less impressed than any similar version. I was hoping to see numerical backing but it was all viewpoint.

IMO, the metrics can be very helpful to isolate edge guys. Not so much with interior defenders. This is from Pro Football Focus. The website Football Outsiders recently published it's SackSEER forecast for this draft crop. I'm not sure if that's been posted around here. It's the same type of thing that has been done on other sites for many years, using workout numbers in key categories to develop an explosiveness measure. Very successful recent history. It's the angle that dismissed Dion Jordan as not special and not worth a premium selection. This year Fowler of the Gators is not held in high regard by the numbers, even though he'll be picked very early.

Got a lnk to what your referring to, if its been posted I haven't seen it?
 
. The website Football Outsiders recently published it's SackSEER forecast for this draft crop. .

Just spent all little time at FBOutsiders and came across this little Dolphins related nugget....

Biggest bust: Back in the 2005 draft retrospective, I covered the amazing NFL career of David Greene, a Seahawks third-round pick who was never allowed to attempt an NFL pass. The 2009 draft brought us another amazing example -- a player chosen even higher than Greene who never completed an NFL pass. The previous season, the Miami Dolphins had introduced the Wildcat formation to the NFL and maximized how far a team with an extraordinarily limited passing game could go. Perhaps with the Wildcat in mind, the Dolphins spent their second-round pick, 44th overall, on Pat White out of West Virginia. White and the Mountaineers nearly made the BCS championship game running Rich Rodriguez's spread-and-shred in a topsy-turvy 2007 season, and White's mobility and apparently his team's 2008 success caused the Dolphins to overlook his conventional size and arm-strength limitations. Then, they found those limitations, and learned that White was not a supreme athlete, which meant he did not help them win. Miami cut him before 2010, and though he resurfaced with Washington in 2013, he seems poised to end his career as the highest-drafted quarterback with no NFL completions since the Bills spent the 37th pick in 1980 on Gene Bradley
 
Well i like 3 out of those 4 guys...armstead is a 5 tech but hes the buyer beware one for me...but i said the same thing about calais campbell as a prospect and armstead reminds me of him coming out and campbell has made me look bad with his work ethic and effort and production that i didnt see at the u

i like this dt class...have a late first on goldman a top 50 on carl davis and a 3rd round grade on gabe wright and all are on my miami targets list

Goldmans where he is cause hes the best at the poa of them all if not the best in the class...definitely the best value for his skillset imo
 
Well i like 3 out of those 4 guys...armstead is a 5 tech but hes the buyer beware one for me...but i said the same thing about calais campbell as a prospect and armstead reminds me of him coming out and campbell has made me look bad with his work ethic and effort and production that i didnt see at the u

i like this dt class...have a late first on goldman a top 50 on carl davis and a 3rd round grade on gabe wright and all are on my miami targets list

Goldmans where he is cause hes the best at the poa of them all if not the best in the class...definitely the best value for his skillset imo

I have very similar grades: Goldman is #38 on my board and Davis is #48
 
There's Phillips too. Not that I want him, would rather Shelton, Brown, Goldman and Carl Davis too but he adds to the log jam where one of the others might drop if Phillips is picked ahead.
 
I understand why the younger and more confident guys don't like metrics, the numbers from SackSEER and elsewhere. But you don't want to force yourself to start from scratch for the rest of your life. Eventually other priorities show up, you don't have as much time, and there's so much mental clutter as you have a massive reservoir of comparison and don't know which one to apply. That's when metrics are so valuable. No need to start from scratch. They point the way, clearing out at least half the clutter.

I still use betting systems that I found nearly 30 years ago. I don't have to do tons of handicapping work at this age. I can rely on the systematic crutch that is still valid, and otherwise hit the golf course while confident I have an 8% edge on that game I just bet.

Not much different with metrics. Besides, they will continue to evolve and improve as they gain greater acceptance and more sharp people are involved in the research and application.
 
I understand why the younger and more confident guys don't like metrics, the numbers from SackSEER and elsewhere. But you don't want to force yourself to start from scratch for the rest of your life. Eventually other priorities show up, you don't have as much time, and there's so much mental clutter as you have a massive reservoir of comparison and don't know which one to apply. That's when metrics are so valuable. No need to start from scratch. They point the way, clearing out at least half the clutter.

I still use betting systems that I found nearly 30 years ago. I don't have to do tons of handicapping work at this age. I can rely on the systematic crutch that is still valid, and otherwise hit the golf course while confident I have an 8% edge on that game I just bet.

Not much different with metrics. Besides, they will continue to evolve and improve as they gain greater acceptance and more sharp people are involved in the research and application.

Especially when discussing players, metrics are very helpful. I don't think people put enough emphasis on athletic comps. Finding guys with similar physical gifts, seeing how they've performed in the NFL and then seeing how a particular player is similar to or different from each of his comps is very beneficial. It's important to frame things in life. Ziggy Ansah couldn't beat a block to save his life during Senior Bowl Week. During the pass-rush drills, which notoriously favor the rusher, he got stoned again and again, because his technique was SO poor. I remember Slimm commenting on his physicality and tools; he had him up near (or in) the top 10. I kept him in the 20's - after watching him closely at the Senior Bowl. I've learned to distrust the Senior Bowl much more than the Combine. Carl Davis happens to be one of my favorite players in the draft, who happened to be the best player at the Senior Bowl, but you put a guy with those tools in that setting, and that's just going to happen.

Every year, you get these analysts that pump up a Dion Jordan or a Dante Fowler - sleeping on guys like Justin Houston, Von Miller (up until VERY late in the process), Vic Beasley (up until very recently), and Alvin Dupree.

I'm fine with going against probabilities based athletic metrics, but I think you should have a specific reason to do so, and I think you should understand the gulf you have to cross to win against the metrics. When people nitpick Bud Dupree, I get a real kick out of it. We're talking about a guy who literally has no peers from the last 10 + drafts in regard to his explosive power metrics. For those unfamiliar, Edge rushers who break a certain threshold (which Vernon Gholston did NOT) have a remarkably high success rate. Few guys players break that threshold, but the guys who have include Shawn Merriman, Brian Orakpo, Cam Wake, Connor Barwin, Lamar Woodley, Jamie Collins, and Justin Houston. For some context of Dupree's tools. Orakpo is the top scorer on this list at 109 - 4 points above the 105 threshold. Dupree scored 116. This Edge group is extremely talented.

Robert Quinn and Aldon Smith come to mind as top-tier Edge players, who tested like mediocre players. Aldon Smith, though, has very long arms, and his hands are weapons. Where an elite athlete would need an inch to explode up field, Smith just needs an inch to throw you out of the way. Quinn also uses his hands very well, but he's more subtle, and his bend around the edge sets him apart. He and Smith also have excellent instincts - Quinn gets off the snap very quickly. So, there's definitely a balance, but I think good information is always good.
 
Especially when discussing players, metrics are very helpful. I don't think people put enough emphasis on athletic comps. Finding guys with similar physical gifts, seeing how they've performed in the NFL and then seeing how a particular player is similar to or different from each of his comps is very beneficial. It's important to frame things in life. Ziggy Ansah couldn't beat a block to save his life during Senior Bowl Week. During the pass-rush drills, which notoriously favor the rusher, he got stoned again and again, because his technique was SO poor. I remember Slimm commenting on his physicality and tools; he had him up near (or in) the top 10. I kept him in the 20's - after watching him closely at the Senior Bowl. I've learned to distrust the Senior Bowl much more than the Combine. Carl Davis happens to be one of my favorite players in the draft, who happened to be the best player at the Senior Bowl, but you put a guy with those tools in that setting, and that's just going to happen.

Every year, you get these analysts that pump up a Dion Jordan or a Dante Fowler - sleeping on guys like Justin Houston, Von Miller (up until VERY late in the process), Vic Beasley (up until very recently), and Alvin Dupree.

I'm fine with going against probabilities based athletic metrics, but I think you should have a specific reason to do so, and I think you should understand the gulf you have to cross to win against the metrics. When people nitpick Bud Dupree, I get a real kick out of it. We're talking about a guy who literally has no peers from the last 10 + drafts in regard to his explosive power metrics. For those unfamiliar, Edge rushers who break a certain threshold (which Vernon Gholston did NOT) have a remarkably high success rate. Few guys players break that threshold, but the guys who have include Shawn Merriman, Brian Orakpo, Cam Wake, Connor Barwin, Lamar Woodley, Jamie Collins, and Justin Houston. For some context of Dupree's tools. Orakpo is the top scorer on this list at 109 - 4 points above the 105 threshold. Dupree scored 116. This Edge group is extremely talented.

Robert Quinn and Aldon Smith come to mind as top-tier Edge players, who tested like mediocre players. Aldon Smith, though, has very long arms, and his hands are weapons. Where an elite athlete would need an inch to explode up field, Smith just needs an inch to throw you out of the way. Quinn also uses his hands very well, but he's more subtle, and his bend around the edge sets him apart. He and Smith also have excellent instincts - Quinn gets off the snap very quickly. So, there's definitely a balance, but I think good information is always good.

I have a friend who works in fantasy football and he admittedly uses tons of metrics because he says he "isn't a football guy." The first play I saw of Dupree, I just knew there was something different about his explosiveness. I think metrics are especially beneficial if you may not know the ins and outs of a certain position. I understand why some use them, but they don't benefit me. It's all about getting the evaluation right. No matter how you do it. I just know I'd drop my batting average so to speak if I started looking at all the metrics and analytics that are around today. A couple years ago I was at a small school in Connecticut, and our strength coach used to bring me the workout #s for our defensive line. I used to take the piece of paper, crumple it up into a ball, and shoot a jump shot. I just want 4 guys that can get to toss sweep. I don't care how they test. But to each his own.
 
I have very similar grades: Goldman is #38 on my board and Davis is #48

I'm actually more fond of Carl Davis and what he offers more than Eddie Goldman. another DT I love is Xavier Cooper who could be snagged a bit later as well. both guys are very solid DTs that would be awesome to have next to Suh.
 
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