Philbin on Dion Jordan and My Take

[JTech194]

I know many of you were hoping we moved Jordan to OLB but I actually agree with keeping him at DE and here's why. As an organization, you have to have vision. Everything can't be NOW NOW NOW. This is especially the case with Jordan. Jordan's upside as an OLB in a 4-3 defense is limited when compared to his upside at DE and this is just by nature of the 4-3 defense. How many STARS are there at OLB in a 4-3 defense in the NFL? Now compare that to LDE. According to Philbin, the main thing Jordan needs to work on is his pass rushing moves and after watching him play DE I have to agree. It's understandable that he wouldn't have many pass rush moves because he rarely played the position in college if at all. He always rushed standing up from the OLB position which is much different because you're operating in space as opposed to in close quarters. Cameron Wake is like 32 years old and we all can see that he's wearing down. it's just a matter of time before we have to replace him and maybe jordan can be that replacement if given ample time to develop the necessary skills. Assuming he does, we'll be able to sign him for the cheap when his rookie contract is up as he wouldn't have had time to breakout as a bonafide star by then with wake still on the team.

Has Jordan been worth the #3 overall pick? Not yet, but he has made plays at the DE position. I recall a game winning int that he caused by rushing the passer and getting his hands on the football. I remember a blocked punt, and I also remember a few other game altering plays as well. This is all while being suspended and swapping back and forth from OLB to DE. Stick him at DE, and develop him and I think we could possibly have our pro bowl DE in the next 2 years or so. If not, at least we KNOW for sure he won't be and we can look elswhere.

We have a lot of young talent on this team with no idea if they can play or not Taylor, Davis, Fede, McCain, the two DT's, Hazel etc.. At some point we gotta let the pups become dogs so we can know wether or not to keep em or send them to the pound.

 

[hoops]

completely disagree with this...his upside as a 43 de carrying around the weight to play an every down one or handle the run is a rotational de...it's horrible value with a top 5 pick...he's never gonna win against nfl tackles carrying that sluggish weight and with his get off on the edge

the staff fails us

 

[russianbear]

I appreciate the optimism in your post. However a few game altering plays, and an ugly miscast DE is not even close to having any value at all resembling a top 3 pick. Especially when you consider we traded up to get him. He gets lost in the trenches and should be playing in space with a chance to utilize his coverage abilities. This is a case of the staff being stubborn and refusing to admit they made a mistake when they drafted him.

 

[JTech194]

completely disagree with this...his upside as a 43 de carrying around the weight to play an every down one or handle the run is a rotational de...it's horrible value with a top 5 pick...he's never gonna win against nfl tackles carrying that sluggish weight and with his get off on the edge

the staff fails us

The problem with your point is.. we don't have enough of a legitimate sample size to make that determination. He did make some plays in spots at his current weight. But what I saw was that he lacked pass rushing moves once engaged by the Tackle. Even at his current weight, he was still able to cover Calvin Johnson down field so I'm not buying that he's lost all of his athleticism. Even at 260 or whatever his current weight is, he's still way more athletic than any LT he'd face. Teach the kid how to use his hands once engaged and we may have something.

 

[Yessir]

The "vision" for Dion Jordan was a failure on all fronts. A failure on the moron that is Jeff Ireland for not recognizing scheme fit, and a failure on the coaching staff for still trying to put a square peg in a round hole. You're going to make the guy bulk up, thus limiting his strengths as drop in coverage guy, so that he can be a situational pass rushing DE? Beyond idiotic.

 

[hoops]

they should just trade him after the season or whenever the cap hit is manageable...to a team that isn't pidgeonholing him as a 43 de...needs to go to a 34 team or one that will play him at sam and let him rush thru gaps and on overloads etc and cover in the sub or blitz thru gaps-drop into soft zones

that kind of thing...no way you will get any real return for a bull rusher only who because of his get off can rarely gain the corner and has zero pass rush polish...especially one not carrying 275 lbs well which he needs to handle run responsibilities

you kidding me...i can get a rotational de in the mid to late rounds or even as a udfa...derrick shelby for instance gives you more value as a 43 de...

 

[russianbear]

they should just trade him after the season or whenever the cap hit is manageable...to a team that isn't pidgeonholing him as a 43 de...needs to go to a 34 team or one that will play him at sam and let him rush thru gaps and on overloads etc and cover in the sub or blitz thru gaps-drop into soft zones

that kind of thing...no way you will get any real return for a bull rusher only who because of his get off can rarely gain the corner and has zero pass rush polish...especially one not carrying 275 lbs well which he needs to handle run responsibilities

you kidding me...i can get a rotational de in the mid to late rounds or even as a udfa...derrick shelby for instance gives you more value as a 43 de...

If I had to drop some dough on a bet I'd say a trade is likely. Give it another year or two and we'll witness a top 3 pick walk out the door for chicken scrap. They should just eat the dead money and trade em now his value isn't going to get any higher.....

 

[hoops]

If I had to drop some dough on a bet I'd say a trade is likely. Give it another year or two and we'll witness a top 3 pick walk out the door for chicken scrap. They should just eat the dead money and trade em now his value isn't going to get any higher.....

you aren't gonna win against nfl tackles if you are that darn slow off the ball and sluggish carrying bad weight and no pass rush polish or arsenal...you just aren't...what you gonna do is waste snaps where you need that spot to get you off the field...

as for a trade someones gonna rape us on it as long as they aren't taking him to play 43 de...guaranteed...have him drop the weight get the athlete and cod back and get bang for your buck as a 2 point stance player...all this talk about the guy not being a high end level athlete coming out of college makes me laugh...the kid had movements skills and feet of a high end corner in combine drills...we just killed the athlete

 

[JTech194]

I appreciate the optimism in your post. However a few game altering plays, and an ugly miscast DE is not even close to having any value at all resembling a top 3 pick. Especially when you consider we traded up to get him. He gets lost in the trenches and should be playing in space with a chance to utilize his coverage abilities. This is a case of the staff being stubborn and refusing to admit they made a mistake when they drafted him.

Where he was drafted is irrelevant at this point. He's on the team now and we have to find out how to maximize his value and a OLB in a 4-3 system just won't do it. You can find OLB's for a 4-3 defense just like you can find RB's. I don't think it's a case of the staff being stubborn as the person that drafted him is no longer here. I think the staff is looking at the current roster, salary cap and Jordan and came to the conclusion that the best possible value to the team would be for him to develop into cam wakes replacement in the next couple of years.

I know in this microwave society we all want our players to play at high levels quickly but often times that's not the case, especially when you're moving a guy from one position to another. With the way many fans think, we would have never got a chance see Oliver Vernon, Jelani Jenkins etc.. develop. We actually have the luxury to wait for this guy to develop because we have pretty good DE's on this team. No need to switch him back and forth or reduce the team value by playing him at OLB especially if they think Chris McCain can be a good OLB

 

[hoops]

The problem with your point is.. we don't have enough of a legitimate sample size to make that determination. He did make some plays in spots at his current weight. But what I saw was that he lacked pass rushing moves once engaged by the Tackle. Even at his current weight, he was still able to cover Calvin Johnson down field so I'm not buying that he's lost all of his athleticism. Even at 260 or whatever his current weight is, he's still way more athletic than any LT he'd face. Teach the kid how to use his hands once engaged and we may have something.

maybe you don't

 

[JTech194]

The "vision" for Dion Jordan was a failure on all fronts. A failure on the moron that is Jeff Ireland for not recognizing scheme fit, and a failure on the coaching staff for still trying to put a square peg in a round hole. You're going to make the guy bulk up, thus limiting his strengths as drop in coverage guy, so that he can be a situational pass rushing DE? Beyond idiotic.

I agree with the Scheme fit issue, but I think plenty of teams draft a guy that excelled at one position in college and project them to another position in the NFL which i think is very risky. That's why i liked the Juwan James pick so much last year. There was no projecting, we needed a RT, he played RT his entire college career no need for guesswork there.

With that said, they asked him to bulk up and LEARN the DE position which I hope we can all agree will take time. Especially when you're suspended and hurt and not getting the reps. I can see why people want to move him to OLB, I just don't think we're maximizing our value by doing so.

 

[JTech194]

they should just trade him after the season or whenever the cap hit is manageable...to a team that isn't pidgeonholing him as a 43 de...needs to go to a 34 team or one that will play him at sam and let him rush thru gaps and on overloads etc and cover in the sub or blitz thru gaps-drop into soft zones

that kind of thing...no way you will get any real return for a bull rusher only who because of his get off can rarely gain the corner and has zero pass rush polish...especially one not carrying 275 lbs well which he needs to handle run responsibilities

you kidding me...i can get a rotational de in the mid to late rounds or even as a udfa...derrick shelby for instance gives you more value as a 43 de...

But you're labeling him as a rotational DE after seeing him play how many games at DE? This is the microwave society I speak of. Cam Wake wasn't good enough to even make an NFL roster coming out of college and he developed into one of the best DE's in the league. I'm not so willing to give up on Jordan because I don't have a large enough sample size. I would at LEAST let him finish out his rookie contract and depending on how he does in practice and pre-season i'd start subbing him in for Wake on early downs to see what he's got over the course of the next two seasons. If he doesn't show significant improvement by then... then I'd be okay with a position switch or trade but for now.. I want to give him the chance to develop.

 

[SuhMe]

I agree with the OP. We gotta try and see if Dion can make it as a DE. Sure he's a little light, blah blah blah, but as the OP points out, in a 4-3 DE is a lot more important than either olb position. Dion has had a very slow start to his career for multiple reasons, but this dude does have some raw talent and imo could be a very good defensive end if developed properly. Sure I get the whole round peg into a square hole and all that, perhaps he would thrive in a Von Miller type role where he plays both de and olb, but that is also one thing I like about Jordan, he's very versatile. Heck he's even a good mlb, when lined up in those double a gap packages because the dude is such a freak. This dude has talent, that's why Kelly was so interested in him in the draft, he knows. Dion may take a long time to develop, he may always be a tweener, but he can still be an effective defensive weapon imo, just need a good defensive coordinator, wake the f*** up Coyle, this is your last chance, you've got friggen Suh now.

 

[raving]

Dion Jordan was on drugs the last two seasons - if not longer in his life.

He is now going to be putting some weight on - its probably tougher for that guy to play with less weight or to keep off.

He probably has issues with scheme - understanding where to be when.

Its simpler to use him as a lineman. It hurts us as a team because if had come in sober - been a real hard worker - had the football IQ we'd have an outside linebacker - which is what we need.

But Dion needs to be put in a place where we can maximize his successes and minimize his deficits. That's why we are keeping him off the field until its 2nd or 3rd down and long. Then we can use him to rush the QB or cover the tight end.

He's a great athlete and he's sober and Suh is an intense guy who is gonna be in EVERYBODIES faces who is not giving 100 percent.

So if he succeeds where they put him we will all be good.

I know many of you were hoping we moved Jordan to OLB but I actually agree with keeping him at DE and here's why. As an organization, you have to have vision. Everything can't be NOW NOW NOW. This is especially the case with Jordan. Jordan's upside as an OLB in a 4-3 defense is limited when compared to his upside at DE and this is just by nature of the 4-3 defense. How many STARS are there at OLB in a 4-3 defense in the NFL? Now compare that to LDE. According to Philbin, the main thing Jordan needs to work on is his pass rushing moves and after watching him play DE I have to agree. It's understandable that he wouldn't have many pass rush moves because he rarely played the position in college if at all. He always rushed standing up from the OLB position which is much different because you're operating in space as opposed to in close quarters. Cameron Wake is like 32 years old and we all can see that he's wearing down. it's just a matter of time before we have to replace him and maybe jordan can be that replacement if given ample time to develop the necessary skills. Assuming he does, we'll be able to sign him for the cheap when his rookie contract is up as he wouldn't have had time to breakout as a bonafide star by then with wake still on the team.

Has Jordan been worth the #3 overall pick? Not yet, but he has made plays at the DE position. I recall a game winning int that he caused by rushing the passer and getting his hands on the football. I remember a blocked punt, and I also remember a few other game altering plays as well. This is all while being suspended and swapping back and forth from OLB to DE. Stick him at DE, and develop him and I think we could possibly have our pro bowl DE in the next 2 years or so. If not, at least we KNOW for sure he won't be and we can look elswhere.

We have a lot of young talent on this team with no idea if they can play or not Taylor, Davis, Fede, McCain, the two DT's, Hazel etc.. At some point we gotta let the pups become dogs so we can know wether or not to keep em or send them to the pound.

 

[DabMarino]

It's sad that we are "hoping" that a top three freaking pick can develop into a situational pass rusher.