Philbin trading marshall

[Krush]

This team will thrive with Marshall gone

 

[ticophin]

Sure, no one will be scared of our WRs this year...Precisely!!! That´s why they´ll be a threat, cause teams will focus on one of the best catching RBs out there in Bush, TEs like Egnew and Fasano, a FB that can catch like Clay, and a running game with multiple weapons...thus leaving our receivers on 1 on 1 situations more often than not!!

 

[Wildbill3]

But he won with Freddie Solomon and Dwight Clark, they were very good.

according to pro football reference, I wouldn't call them "very good" maybe average or above average, but between the two of them only one of them ever had an elite season. (disclaimer, wasn't watching football in 1982, and the definition of what an elite season was in 1982, vs 2012 may well have changed)

 

[Wildbill3]

I had created this thread entitled The Beast That Never Was at another website, but never posted it at finheaven...

I will start by saying I was a big fan of the trade that brought Brandon Marshall to the Dolphins. I first saw him when my beloved Nevada Wolfpack (alumnus) beat UCF in the Hawaii Bowl in 2005 by a score of 49-48. Brandon was a man among boys catching 11 passes for 230 yards and catching 3 TD passes. Brandon was clearly the best player on the field that day. I thought the Broncos got the "steal of the draft" by selecting him the 4th round. I honestly thought we were getting the 3rd best WR in football behind only Johnson (Hou) and Fitzgerald when Ireland traded for him.

But the more I watched Marshall on the field, the less of a fan of Brandon I became. Fans much smarter than myself let me know I was clueless when I mentioned Marshall isn't all that on the forums. Those in the know usually referred to Brandon's 86 catches and 1,104 yards in 2010 and 81 catches 1,214 yards in 2011. Of course, not much was said about his lack of TDs and his drops were dismissed being thrown at the end of his fingertips

and difficult catches that he shouldn't be expected to have made. Although, the national experts certainly disagreed that Marshall shouldn't have made those catches.

When I first saw the trade yesterday I thought "good for Ireland to come to his senses and cut the Dolphins losses"...addition by subtraction, besides freeing up cap space and getting a couple of 3rd round picks. The Dolphins are going to follow Philbin's plan of having a team of hard-working, high-character guys that play the game the right way. But many of the fans on the forums and the "professional writers" were saying what a bad trade it was to only get two 3rd round picks and have been asking "How are the Dolphins going to replace Marshall?" and it was a bad move unless it results in the signing of Peyton Manning. More proof that Ireland is a ****ing idiot according to those that seem to despise the man.

I was left scratching my head, what appears to be a chronic condition directly related to spending time on the forums...

, so I decided to check the numbers to see if I was just crazy for thinking what I saw on the field was one of the most physically gifted and talented players ever to wear a Dolphin uniform actually hurt the Dolphins chances of winning, not helped them. The following is what I found:

Under the Ireland/Sparano regime lasting 4 seasons (2008-2011):

Miami's Overall Record: 31-33 (plus 0-1 in playoffs)

Miami's record without Brandon Marshall: 19-15 (.559 winning percentage)

Miami's record with Brandon Marshall: 12-18​ (.400 winning percentage)

Miami's PPG (Points Per Game) Offense 2008-2011 (64 games): 20.4

Miam's PPG without Brandon Marshall in 34 games: 22.0

Miami's PPG with Brandon Marshall in 30 games: 18.6

Here are the yearly breakdowns of PPG over the Ireland/Sparano years with leading WRs making an impact prior to Marshall becoming a Dolphin for that year in parentheses:

2008: 21[SUP]st[/SUP] at 21.6 (Ted Ginn Jr., Greg Camarillo, Davone Bess)
2009: 15[SUP]th[/SUP] at 22.5 (Davone Bess, Greg Camarillo, Ted Ginn Jr., Brian Hartline)
2010: 30[SUP]th[/SUP] at 17.1 (Miami played 2 games without Marshall and averaged 21.5 ppg … in 14 games with Marshall playing Miami averaged 16.4 ppg)
2011: 20[SUP]th[/SUP] at 20.6

Of course, the most common argument for Brandon Marshall supporters is "look who the QBs are that are throwing him the ball." The following is a breakdown of the QBs under Ireland/Sparano:

The beloved Chad Pennington:
Chad Pennington regular season record as Dolphin starter and no Brandon Marshall: 11-8
Chad Pennington regular season record as Dolphin starter and Brandon Marshall: 1-0
(Pennington threw 2 passes before hurting his shoulder. Chad Henne came in and threw 28 passes before hurting his knee and Thigpen threw 6 passes in 29-17 win over Titans)

Everybody’s favorite whipping boy Chad Henne:
Chad Henne record as Dolphin starter: 13-18 (one win credited Pennington as starter...Titans game, but should be credited to Henne and one loss credited to Henne as starter but should be credited to Moore...Chargers game)
Chad Henne record as Dolphin starter without Marshall: 8-7 (PPG…24.0)
Chad Henne record as Dolphin starter with Marshall: 5-11 (PPG...17.4)

Wow…winning record without Marshall and losing record with him, as well as 6.6 less ppg when Marshall plays. Who brought who down? Looks like Henne was doing pretty well as the Dolphin QB when the focus was on spreading the ball around and not targeting Marshall so much.
(Side note: Miami was only 1-6 in 2011 when Brandon Marshall was targeted 9 times or more and 5-4 when targeted 8 times or less).

Tyler Thigpen had one start with Brandon Marshall: 0-1 (0.0 ppg…shutout against Bears)

Matt Moore record with Brandon Marshall: 6-6 (21.6 ppg) (Moore should be credited with loss given to Henne. Came into game 1[SUP]st[/SUP] quarter, ball at 50 yard line and scored tied 0-0. Miami scored on drive to take 7-0 lead)
Keep in mind that Moore got to go up against the who’s who of bad defenses in ppg…Philly ranked 10[SUP]th[/SUP], KC 12[SUP]th[/SUP], NE 15[SUP]th[/SUP], Dallas 16[SUP]th[/SUP], Jets 20[SUP]th[/SUP](2 games), Washington 21[SUP]st[/SUP], Denver 24[SUP]th[/SUP], Giants 25[SUP]th[/SUP], Oakland 29[SUP]th[/SUP], Buffalo 30[SUP]th[/SUP] (2 games).

Then when I compared Marshall to WRs on other teams what I saw was “The Beast” that NEVER was for Brandon Marshall. The following are career stats of a few WRs to compare alongside Brandon Marshall’s when it comes to TD production. This is just a sampling as there are plenty of other WRs who put Marshall to shame (Moss, Wayne, Austin, Burress, Holmes, Nicks, etc…the list is long) when it comes to scoring.

The “TD % targeted” = how many TD’s the WR has averaged per 100 times being thrown to (targeted) over his career.
The “TD % completed” = how many TD’s the WR has averaged over career per 100 completions over his career.

Dez Bryant
108 of 175, 1489 yards, 13.8 ypc, 15 TD … 8.57 TD % targeted, 13.89 TD % completed

Vincent Jackson
272 of 491, 4754 yards, 17.5 ypc, 37 TD … 7.54 TD % targeted, 13.6 TD % completed

Calvin Johnson
366 of 677, 5872 yards, 16.0 ypc, 49 TD … 7.24 TD % targeted, 13.39 TD % completed

Jordy Nelson
168 of 244, 2531 yards, 15.1 ypc, 21 TD … 8.61 TD % targeted, 12.5 TD % completed

Greg Jennings
389 of 670, 6171 yards, 15.9 ypc, 49 TD … 7.31 TD % targeted, 12.6 TD % completed

Stevie Johnson
170 of 293, 2189 yards, 12.9 ypc, 19 TD … 6.49 TD % targeted, 11.18 TD % completed

Marques Colston
449 of 691, 6240 yards, 13.9 ypc, 48 TD … 6.95 TD % targeted, 10.69 TD % completed

Larry Fitzgerald
693 of 1191, 9615 yards, 13.9 ypc, 73 TD … 6.13 TD % targeted, 10.53 TD % completed

David Bowe
356 of 636, 4927 yards, 13.8 ypc, 36 TD … 5.67 TD % targeted, 10.11 TD % completed

Brandon Llyod
311 of 665, 4784 yards, 15.4 ypc, 31 TD … 4.66 TD % targeted, 9.97 TD % completed

DeSean Jackson
230 of 438, 4096 yards, 17.8 ypc, 21 TD … 4.79 TD % targeted, 9.13 TD % completed

Roddy White
530 of 940, 7374 yards, 13.9 ypc, 45 TD … 4.79 TD % targeted, 8.49 TD % completed

Steve Smith
699 of 1190, 10278 yards, 14.7 ypc, 59 TD … 4.96 TD % targeted, 8.44 TD % completed

Brandon Marshall
494 of 827, 6247 yards, 12.6 ypc, 34 TD … 4.11 TD % targeted, 6.88 TD % completed

Of note: Brandon Marshall is the lowest of this group for ypc, TD % targeted, and TD % completed…big play WR Brandon Marshall is NOT!

Of course, some will say the QB throwing the ball had a role and that is fair. Obviously having a Manning or a Brees would improve a WR’s numbers. However, Marshall did have Cutler and Moore throw him the ball and both can throw the deep pass well. Players like Lloyd, Bowe and Johnson haven’t had elite QBs throwing them the ball. And is anyone going to claim Matt Ryan can throw the deep ball well? If Ryan gets within 5 yards of WR on a pass over 30 yards it is a fairly accurate pass for him.

After looking at the numbers and pondering a familiar headline I have been reading since Brandon Marshall was traded to the Bears “How will Miami replace Brandon Marshall?” I know Ted Ginn Jr. is a UFA and I don't know Camarillo's status but I am sure a deal could be worked out to get him back on the roster. Other than that, I don't think I am going too far out on a limb to say that if one of those 3rd picks Miami just picked from the Bears were to be spent on a WR in the draft Miami would do just fine replacing Brandon Marshall.

very nicely done. would love to see more of this and some of it in vip. I would hate for this to get lost in a thread when it deserves it's own thread.

 

[simeian]

Let's see how things play out this year with the new system. There will be opportunities for guys to step up and emerge now that BM will not be calling for the ball every play. However I do feel like WR will be a priority next off season. And I also believe all of the drama influenced the decision to trade BMarshall more than anything else did.

 

[rob19]

according to pro football reference, I wouldn't call them "very good" maybe average or above average, but between the two of them only one of them ever had an elite season. (disclaimer, wasn't watching football in 1982, and the definition of what an elite season was in 1982, vs 2012 may well have changed)

Roger Craig was also there for 3 of his 4 but that's besides the point.

To clarify for everyone quoting me, I'm not saying the Marshall trade was a bad move. I was upset the day it happened before the news leaked that he had gotten into altercation with that women, but I've come to accept it. I was a little disappointed about the compensation, because from a talent stand point alone I think he's probably worth a bit more than that. My 49'ers example was to highlight the possibilities of what some talented receivers can accomplish in this system. Bess & Hartline are alright, they're no slouches, & I like them, but I think we can, and will, surround Ryan Tannehill with better talent going forward.

Maybe one of these late round or undrafted guys step's up. Crazier things have happened.

 

[Tureo]

We like every other team in the NFL need a #1 WR. We will replace Marshall next year. Right now we do not have a recieving option our QB can be confident throwing to in any situation.

 

[4th And Drunk]

I agree, this move had less to do with talent an more to do with character.

 

[ojmcduffy]

Wait, we traded B Marshall? When did this happen? Why didn't anyone bring this up before?

If there had been threads about this before, i think i would have said that there were a number of reasons why we traded him.

For instance, the fact that he is freaking crazy. The fact that he sucker punches women at their birthday parties. That a WR in a WCO needs to run good routes and have good hands, two things that Marshall himself admitted last season he does not do. The fact that he is overpaid, overrated and has a big mouth might have something to do with it. The fact that he wants and though his stupid actions, get attention on him instead of the team.

Maybe our new HC did not want to spend hours explaining why Marshall did what he did or said. Maybe he wants the emphasis to be on the team rather then one player. And just maybe he wants our new 1st round pick rookie QB listening to his ideas about our passing offense then having to listen to the self serving crap that comes out of Marshall's pie hole.

yeah what he said

 

[DolfanDuBbZ~]

Sure, no one will be scared of our WRs this year...Precisely!!! That´s why they´ll be a threat, cause teams will focus on one of the best catching RBs out there in Bush, TEs like Egnew and Fasano, a FB that can catch like Clay, and a running game with multiple weapons...thus leaving our receivers on 1 on 1 situations more often than not!!

 

[zachthomasmaine]

Marshall had some good talent with his crappy attitude, but it was the last straw when he kept dropping so many much needed catches.

 

[tay0365]

I don't get this sentiment. Can everyone stop acting like the WC offense doesn't need good receivers? I'd love to see how successful Joe Montana would have been throwing to Brian Hartline & Davone Bess rather than John Taylor and Jerry Rice. You can't solve all you're problems in one year, but let's not all act like we're okay with having Brian Hartline be Ryan Tannehill's #1 receiver for the next 10 years; we'll be looking to upgrade the position next year.

Unless by some extreme luck, one of the late receivers we took actually play much better then anyone expects.

 

[Zounds]

I don't get this sentiment. Can everyone stop acting like the WC offense doesn't need good receivers? I'd love to see how successful Joe Montana would have been throwing to Brian Hartline & Davone Bess rather than John Taylor and Jerry Rice. You can't solve all you're problems in one year, but let's not all act like we're okay with having Brian Hartline be Ryan Tannehill's #1 receiver for the next 10 years; we'll be looking to upgrade the position next year.

I dont recall Jerry Rice getting involved in several domestic disputes, getting into fistfights with his teammates, being arrested 4 times, showing up to practice in pajamas and refusing to play, escalating a situation that resulted in a teammate being shot to death, getting a DUI, or getting suspended by the NFL commissioner. And thats only the information that's been made public.

Nobody is questioning Marshall's athletic ability, or saying we dont need his athletic ability on our team. What people are saying is that he's a headcase and we do not need the distractions.

 

[Burnt Reynolds]

I don't get this sentiment. Can everyone stop acting like the WC offense doesn't need good receivers? I'd love to see how successful Joe Montana would have been throwing to Brian Hartline & Davone Bess rather than John Taylor and Jerry Rice. You can't solve all you're problems in one year, but let's not all act like we're okay with having Brian Hartline be Ryan Tannehill's #1 receiver for the next 10 years; we'll be looking to upgrade the position next year.

Ummm, Montana retired like 15 years ago and the WCO has changed quite a bit. Did Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees or Eli Manning have a "Jerry Rice" to throw the ball to? No, and they have 7 combined titles and run a modern version of a spread, WCO.

 

[LarryFinFan]

Trading marshall was philbins message to the lockerroom, saying he has arrived and no ones safe. It'll get the team alot more focused alot quicker. brandon Marshall trade was a blessing in disguise.

Making trades is Ireland's responsibility, not Philbin's. That trade was decided long before Philbin got involved. This wasn't a message or a threat to other players, it was simply a move to correct a problem that was being caused by Marshall....