Process and Planning - A Clean Sweep. This Is Not About Single Players And What Money They Got | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Process and Planning - A Clean Sweep. This Is Not About Single Players And What Money They Got

phinsforlife said:
But you were probably doing cartwheels when they signed and overpaid Armstead, gave up what they did for Chubb with the massive overpay, and on and on and on. Not consistent. We could not even keep Van Ginkel on short money at a position of need and are shedding OL when nothing is more critical for TUa, and all is good and I am an a-hole and troll. Okey dokey
Click to expand...
You somehow managed to hit every nail on the head, including the troll bit. Good job!
 
phinsforlife said:
Wilkins, Hunt, AVG, Brandon Jones, and who know who else (Connor Williams), all gone. This thread is not about a single player. Argue about the pros and cons of Wilkins all you want. I see both sides. This thread is about the mosaic in total of what happened, and the poor planning that got us here.

This is terrible planning by Grier. I am not commenting about what the teams record will be. This is a process point. Whatever their record is next year, it should be better than it turns out, because we put ourselves in a poor position and lost too much talent.

To be this much over the cap when you have a bunch of your own prized players scheduled to hit the market, and you need to find a bunch of money to pay your QB, is terrible planning. You cannot set things up so this hits all at once. Too much to deal with, impossible to shuffle that many things.

The Van Ginkel loss speaks volumes. That was not a lot of money, and we need help at the position, with the injuries. Yet we didn't have the dry powder to even lock that one down. Whether or not you think Hunt or Wilkins got too much money is not the point. We didn't even have the money to sign a guy like Van Ginkel.

And PS the market is the market, so the "overpays" are just market so that needs to be accounted for. The cap is up, other teams have money to spend. This is what happens. Which is why you don't put yourself in this spot. And in part we are in this spot, because we overpaid for guys like Chubb and Armstead (cash and draft capital). Also all you people telling me Wilkins and Hunt are not worth the money are the same people that wildly celebrate the overpays when they sign guys like Chubb, Armstead, Suh and the raft of FA's they have overpaid for in the past. So people are not being consistent, but instead just trying to justify every single thing the team does. It is interminable.

Further, the OL could not be more important for Tua and this team, and it seems we are going to get worse at the position, but not better. Again, this is a function of the spot we put ourselves in.

When I woke up this morning, and didn't see any news about restructures, I knew we were in for trouble, because we were going into day 1 still over the cap. That means no money, and probably a reluctance from players to even engage, because they are running the risk that by the time Wednesday at 4pm rolled around, the Dolphins still might not have enough space, and the deals could not become official, and they would be out of luck because other teams had allocated a bunch of their money.

This is on Grier. Just terrible planning. It should not have been this bad. Whatever record the team has, it should be better.
Click to expand...
Oh boy.

Another one of these rehash of the rehash threads......

Ponderous man........
 
Honestly, this is the long term price of the Tyreek Hill deal. When we made that trade and contract happen when we already had draftees who were going to need new contracts within the next 2 years we changed the way we were building. I’m still not complaining that we got Reek, but we had 4 draft picks show out over the length of their rookie contracts and suddenly very little leeway to approach these one at a time and extend our players over a timeline that made it easier to digest.
Let’s hope that we can get some decent vets on one year “prove it” deals and draft some quality this year so we can stay competitive with the foundational pieces we’ve already paid for. Next year we’re in a good position to reload thanks to our comp picks. The house is not on fire and there are worse things than not winning day one of free agency.
 
phinsforlife said:
So you are saying Grier did a great job process and planning wise and you are pleased with how things have turned out?
Click to expand...
I'm not commenting on Grier at all.

I'm commenting on starting threads on something that has already been discussed ad nauseum, for the sole reason of soliciting negativity.
 
Mach2 said:
I'm not commenting on Grier at all.

I'm commenting on starting threads on something that has already been discussed ad nauseum, for the sole reason of soliciting negativity.
Click to expand...
you are making things up.
first of all you are back to the positive/negative thing again, when i am being objective.
second of all it is impossible to have been discussed before, because they just failed in FA, and lost all of these guys, and signed nobody, which not even i thought would happen.
in summary i have been right. it was not negative. just objective and dispassionate. and you dont have the stones to admit it and deal with the questions at hand, and instead just want to sling more personal crap at me, which is something i have never done to you.
for that i have been ridiculed, endured numerous personal attacks and responses like yours that have nothing to do with the question at hand, and endured people telling me i should kill myself.
so thank you and have a nice day.
 
IMO, Grier built (and McDaniel coached) a roster that couldn't beat the good teams, so not one of these guys is irreplaceable. Let them all go... who cares! Tua is definitely not worth the 50 million people are talking about, and even the great Tyreek Hill is overpaid, considering that once he started getting banged up, he was hobbled a bit and dropped too many passes. I say keep a few guys who are decent and not too expensive, and replace everyone else.
 
phinsforlife said:
Wilkins, Hunt, AVG, Brandon Jones, and who know who else (Connor Williams), all gone. This thread is not about a single player. Argue about the pros and cons of Wilkins all you want. I see both sides. This thread is about the mosaic in total of what happened, and the poor planning that got us here.

This is terrible planning by Grier. I am not commenting about what the teams record will be. This is a process point. Whatever their record is next year, it should be better than it turns out, because we put ourselves in a poor position and lost too much talent.

To be this much over the cap when you have a bunch of your own prized players scheduled to hit the market, and you need to find a bunch of money to pay your QB, is terrible planning. You cannot set things up so this hits all at once. Too much to deal with, impossible to shuffle that many things.

The Van Ginkel loss speaks volumes. That was not a lot of money, and we need help at the position, with the injuries. Yet we didn't have the dry powder to even lock that one down. Whether or not you think Hunt or Wilkins got too much money is not the point. We didn't even have the money to sign a guy like Van Ginkel.

And PS the market is the market, so the "overpays" are just market so that needs to be accounted for. The cap is up, other teams have money to spend. This is what happens. Which is why you don't put yourself in this spot. And in part we are in this spot, because we overpaid for guys like Chubb and Armstead (cash and draft capital). Also all you people telling me Wilkins and Hunt are not worth the money are the same people that wildly celebrate the overpays when they sign guys like Chubb, Armstead, Suh and the raft of FA's they have overpaid for in the past. So people are not being consistent, but instead just trying to justify every single thing the team does. It is interminable.

Further, the OL could not be more important for Tua and this team, and it seems we are going to get worse at the position, but not better. Again, this is a function of the spot we put ourselves in.

When I woke up this morning, and didn't see any news about restructures, I knew we were in for trouble, because we were going into day 1 still over the cap. That means no money, and probably a reluctance from players to even engage, because they are running the risk that by the time Wednesday at 4pm rolled around, the Dolphins still might not have enough space, and the deals could not become official, and they would be out of luck because other teams had allocated a bunch of their money.

This is on Grier. Just terrible planning. It should not have been this bad. Whatever record the team has, it should be better.
Click to expand...
I understand your point of view.

We traded for and or signed: Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Ramsey, Bradley Chubb, and Terron Armstead.

Everyone of those players plays a premium position and is considered elite. Some would argue about Chubb, but he is disruptive when healthy.

Losing Avg hurt.

Did you see the cost of Wilkins and Hunt?

Neither of those are premium positions, and it’s too much money, it just is.

X was not playing at the level he was paid at, and has real durability issues, it was time for him to walk as well.

Now, let’s see what they replace these players with. That’s all I would suggest, let’s see how it pans out before we pass judgement.

Agree with you that the Oline is a priority.

Let’s maybe revisit this after the draft before we call for Chris Griers head? I would say we have incomplete information at this point as it relates to all of these players walking out the door and replacing them.
 
Mello Yello said:
I think the time to negotiate with Wilkins was actually a year before we started. Instead of after year 4 it should've been after year 3 when the team still had his rights for 2 more seasons and he was a less known commodity on the verge of hitting FA.

I think not being able to project your own player after 3 seasons is kind of a problem.

Once a player hits FA he's basically gone because someone out there will need the position filled or just have more money. If you can't sign a guy after year #3, it's very hard to think long-term.

So you'd better be good at evaluating during years 1-3.
Click to expand...
Okay let's do it this way so you see more than Wilkins, we made a 19 million a year offer last year for him. We have Tua, Waddle, Jaelan Phillips, and Holland coming up. That's 4 more high end salaries coming up. At some point when you draft good, you're going to lose some. We lost 4 draft picks today. We now have 11 draft picks next year counting the comps. If we didn't draft good players we wouldn't be in this situation. So let's start there. This proved others saw in our drafts picks more than we, the fans, did. None of us thought Wilkins would get 111 million, or Hunt getting 100 mil. I didn't think B. Jones would get 22.5 mil. None of us. So is that bad planning or ridiculous pricing by other teams. I figured AVG would get good money, but we have a DE with a high salary and another about to be paid. We had 7 player this pass year making 20 million or more, that's 144 mill + of your salary cap. Leaving, as we now know, 100 or less for others. You had Wilkins, Hunt, AVG, S. Jones, Austin Jackson, Sielier, Elliot, Robert Jones, Raekwon Davis, Kendall Lamm. I'm naming notable players who we probably wished we could keep. We've cut 2 of the 7, paid Seiler last year and got Austin to sign before this year. After cutting 2 of the 7, we're still 20 million over the cap. We're at 48 players on the roster as of now. Wilkins got 111 mil. Hunt got 100 mil. That's 27 and 20 mil per year for 2 players. That's 47 mill of your cap.. You really think Wilkins would have agreed to a contract 2 years ago. I don't think so. Add those 2 to the 5 left and now you're at 147 mil of your cap. So you went up 7 mil, even before you do Tua. The 5 left are staying, I'm sure they'll restructure their contracts as we need money before Wednesday and that's with one of the 2 cuts still counting on the cap. 25 mill count at that until June1. It wasn't a bad team we had last year for those prices, but not good enough, even with all those players on it. I wouldn't mind a bit of a shake up to see if we can get even better, when no one thinking that we are, because of the players we lost today. I think we still have enough good players left to be a threat, we don't know what the draftees will be and we don't know what the FA's we sign do, but they could be the missing pieces.
 
Kyndig said:
I understand your point of view.

We traded for and or signed: Tyreek Hill, Jaylen Ramsey, Bradley Chubb, and Terron Armstead.

Everyone of those players plays a premium position and is considered elite. Some would argue about Chubb, but he is disruptive when healthy.

Losing Avg hurt.

Did you see the cost of Wilkins and Hunt?

Neither of those are premium positions, and it’s too much money, it just is.

X was not playing at the level he was paid at, and has real durability issues, it was time for him to walk as well.

Now, let’s see what they replace these players with. That’s all I would suggest, let’s see how it pans out before we pass judgement.

Agree with you that the Oline is a priority.

Let’s maybe revisit this after the draft before we call for Chris Griers head? I would say we have incomplete information at this point as it relates to all of these players walking out the door and replacing them.
Click to expand...
thanks i do not think we have incomplete information though. it has been 23 years with no playoffs, alot of those years grier was a key decision maker. by the time we get the evidence you seek, it will be terminal and we will be hosed for another 5-10 years before can dig out of the mess. lets say we give tua 5 and $250mm and get it wrong, for example. you really trust grier to get this evaluation right and make the right decision? i am not trying to pass judgement on tua, my point is if they get it wrong, and you have the evidence you want, it is too late and the team will be up sh*ts creek again
 
phinsforlife said:
you are making things up.
first of all you are back to the positive/negative thing again, when i am being objective.
second of all it is impossible to have been discussed before, because they just failed in FA, and lost all of these guys, and signed nobody, which not even i thought would happen.
in summary i have been right. it was not negative. just objective and dispassionate. and you dont have the stones to admit it and deal with the questions at hand, and instead just want to sling more personal crap at me, which is something i have never done to you.
for that i have been ridiculed, endured numerous personal attacks and responses like yours that have nothing to do with the question at hand, and endured people telling me i should kill myself.
so thank you and have a nice day.
Click to expand...
So you are not happy that we didn't retain those guys?

Would you have happily paid what they got?

I certainly wouldn't have, irrespective of who was the GM.

Now, you could go down the road of "well, they should have done something earlier", but then we are back to what has already been discussed.

Answer this question honestly.

Do you think there is anyone here on a regular basis that doesn't already know your thoughts on Grier?
 
MDFINFAN said:
Okay let's do it this way so you see more than Wilkins, we made a 19 million a year offer last year for him. We have Tua, Waddle, Jaelan Phillips, and Holland coming up. That's 4 more high end salaries coming up. At some point when you draft good, you're going to lose some. We lost 4 draft picks today. We now have 11 draft picks next year counting the comps. If we didn't draft good players we wouldn't be in this situation. So let's start there. This proved others saw in our drafts picks more than we, the fans, did. None of us thought Wilkins would get 111 million, or Hunt getting 100 mil. I didn't think B. Jones would get 22.5 mil. None of us. So is that bad planning or ridiculous pricing by other teams. I figured AVG would get good money, but we have a DE with a high salary and another about to be paid. We had 7 player this pass year making 20 million or more, that's 144 mill + of your salary cap. Leaving, as we now know, 100 or less for others. You had Wilkins, Hunt, AVG, S. Jones, Austin Jackson, Sielier, Elliot, Robert Jones, Raekwon Davis, Kendall Lamm. I'm naming notable players who we probably wished we could keep. We've cut 2 of the 7, paid Seiler last year and got Austin to sign before this year. After cutting 2 of the 7, we're still 20 million over the cap. We're at 48 players on the roster as of now. Wilkins got 111 mil. Hunt got 100 mil. That's 27 and 20 mil per year for 2 players. That's 47 mill of your cap.. You really think Wilkins would have agreed to a contract 2 years ago. I don't think so. Add those 2 to the 5 left and now you're at 147 mil of your cap. So you went up 7 mil, even before you do Tua. The 5 left are staying, I'm sure they'll restructure their contracts as we need money before Wednesday and that's with one of the 2 cuts still counting on the cap. 25 mill count at that until June1. It wasn't a bad team we had last year for those prices, but not good enough, even with all those players on it. I wouldn't mind a bit of a shake up to see if we can get even better, when no one thinking that we are, because of the players we lost today. I think we still have enough good players left to be a threat, we don't know what the draftees will be and we don't know what the FA's we sign do, but they could be the missing pieces.
Click to expand...
sadly we only have 6 draft picks this year
 
Mach2 said:
So you are not happy that we didn't retain those guys?

Would you have happily paid what they got?

I certainly wouldn't have, irrespective of who was the GM.

Now, you could go down the road of "well, they should have done something earlier", but then we are back to what has already been discussed.

Answer this question honestly.

Do you think there is anyone here on a regular basis that doesn't already know your thoughts on Grier?
Click to expand...
did you read my post at all or did you just go straight to the bashing me point like you and others most often do? i addressed that in the OP and that was not even my main point
 
Last edited:
phinsforlife said:
which is what the dolphins were and did and how we put ourselves in this spot but overpaying for a bunch of our own roster
Click to expand...
No actually what we did is draft really well and weren’t able to pay everyone that developed into great talent. All those guys were over paid. Good for them 👍
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom