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Quarterback Knee Injuries

ckparrothead

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I just wanted to bring this up because to be honest, a quarterback dealing with a severe knee injury is actually a pretty new and unfamiliar thing.

You saw how everyone grossly overestimated the rehab and recovery timelines for both Carson Palmer and Daunte Culpepper. The injury just isn't all that familiar for a QB. The last time I can remember major knee or leg injuries for a QB (other than Dan's achilles) were Joe Theisman...and I think didn't Joe Namath have his career ended by a bad leg injury?

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that we have to keep a very open mind when it comes to Daunte's play, because the book really is being written right now on the pattern of recovery for QBs with serious knee injuries. We've seen the pattern of recovery for QBs with shoulder problems, and we've seen the pattern of recovery for QBs with concussions.

But where it concerns knee injuries, the press got the rehab and recovery times wrong by a longshot, and now it appears everyone is getting the play expectations wrong by a country mile as well. Keep an open mind about these things because right now the book is being written on how these serious knee injuries affect a QB's throws, his pocket presence, his decision-making, etc.

What brought this to my attention is the simple fact that Carson Palmer has been sacked 11 times through 3 games. He got sacked 10 times in the last 2 games alone.

Daunte is not alone here. Carson's got a heck of a better OL than we do right now, and yet he's not able to escape the rush and make decisions that normally fall under the realm of "pocket presence" the way he was able to in the past. It will take some time.

So when you see our OL allow someone to go in free to the QB within a 2.0 second range, and you wonder, why doesn't Daunte see that the OL broke down? Why doesn't he get rid of the ball when the OL breaks down? It is probably because of knee issues...adapting to a knee that does not work the same way...the same issues that Carson Palmer is dealing with right now as a QB. But with Carson, the rest of the Bengals team is helping him cover up those weaknesses with a good ground game, receivers that are getting open consistently, better OL/TE/RB protection, probably better play calling, etc. Daunte's not getting AS MUCH help right now, IMO.

So before you start accusing Daunte of sucking real bad and holding him up to standards as if he did not have the knee injury, let's wait a bit and see a little more of the pattern that is being established right now by both Daunte Culpepper and Carson Palmer in terms of overcoming the knee issues by adapting your game mentally to account for the lowered mobility.

Also keep in mind that Nick Saban flat out said there is absolutely nothing wrong with Daunte's pass mechanics right now...I think a lot of people are chasing shadows where that is concerned.
 
If Daunte was not 100%, why rush him back? Look what happened to Pennington when they rushed him back.
 
Woot CK is back! I'm going to read the post now, just wanted to cheer.
 
Joe Willie

ckparrothead said:
"I think didn't Joe Namath have his career ended by a bad leg injury?"
I think Broadway Joe's troubles started at Bama with his knees, when reconstructive surgery was in the dark ages. He stood in the pocket most of his pro career on two bad pins.
"Namath was plagued with knee injuries through much of his career. Despite having suffered a serious knee injury in his senior year at the University of Alabama, he still he completed 1,886 passes for 27,663 yards and 173 touchdowns in 12 seasons with the Jets and a final try with the Los Angeles Rams in 1977. This knee injury, which caused his knees to swell up with fluid and require periodic draining, plagued Namath for the rest of his career. On some occasions, Namath had to have his knee drained at halftime so that he could finish a game. He still enjoyed many exceptional days, one of which came in the 1968 AFL title game. He threw three touchdown passes to lead New York to a 27-23 win over the Oakland Raiders that set up the dramatic Super Bowl III confrontation."
Hugh
 
Trent Green-was put on IR after the 1st or 2nd preseason game. However, if I remember correctly there was a bit of grumbling because I thought Green believed he could make it back quickly and play (of course he was still trying to keep his job as he wasn't established like he is now).

But, you're right CK, I can't really think of many QBs with the blown out knees. Mike Vick hurt the ankle/leg. Mark Brunell busted his knee up too, and until last year he was never the same. Didn't Elway hurt his knee? It's funny how I say I can't remember too many and now they're coming to me...haha. But, I understand you're point it's not something that's well versed for QBs.
 
CK, reading your post about quarterbacks with knee injuries I think a case
can be made that maybe the Dolphins are bringing Culpepper back to soon.
In fact playing him at this time might cause long-term problems with his confidence. Looking at the sack stats the Dolphins are up there with a couple of offensive lines that are having problems; the Raiders and the Browns. These two combinations (recovering quarterback + mediocre offensive line) seems to be a formula for disaster.
 
Not only has DC lost a step, but with our swiss cheese offensive line DC is being forced to scramble....he just seems to be holding on to the ball to long and he is fumbling the ball a lot when he gets hit. I think if he is still having problems moving around, then sit him for a while and put in Joey until DC's knee is a little stronger. I know Nick won't do this because he does not want to create a QB controversy but the team is more important than any one player. :rolleyes:
 
Daunte is playing because:

A) He is the best quarterback on the roster, even with his struggle to adapt to his knee, and

B) He is at no substantial risk of re-injury.

Period. He has not been "rushed back" too early for his own or this team's own good. Joey Harrington is an inferior quarterback whether Daunte is in the middle of a slow process of getting use to his knee or not. Cleo Lemon is an inferior quarterback as well. Gus Frerotte would be an inferior quarterback and so would be Sage Rosenfels.

So the question becomes, is he at risk of re-injury? The answer is an overwhelming NO. He hasn't even suffered any swelling in the knee and the guy has been knocked around as much as you can be at this point.

He is HEALTHY. Is he optimal? No. But even at less than optimum, Daunte is still the best QB option we have.

Do we say that the Bengals rushed Carson Palmer back? I think the Bengals are very happy that Carson is playing, even with the 11 sacks in three games, rather than having Anthony Wright come in and play for him.
 
ckparrothead said:
But where it concerns knee injuries, the press got the rehab and recovery times wrong by a longshot, and now it appears everyone is getting the play expectations wrong by a country mile as well.
I think it's funny these are the conclusions you draw from the current situation. I think reality is exactly the opposite of what you describe. The press all along have been quoting the experts on how long it takes to come back fully from those kinds of injuries.

The press got the rehab and recovery times exactly right. The reality is that both Daunte and Carson have come back before they were at 100%, that's why we see them struggling with sacks, etc.

The wrong estimates come in when people have assumed that if they are playing they were ahead of schedule on their recoveries. People's expectations about their play were based on believing that they were fully recovered but they aren't.

Their teams have just decided that they are recovered enough that they aren't especially prone to further injury so they are going to play them even though they aren't fully recovered.
 
ckparrothead said:
Daunte is playing because:

A) He is the best quarterback on the roster, even with his struggle to adapt to his knee, and

B) He is at no substantial risk of re-injury.

Period. He has not been "rushed back" too early for his own or this team's own good. Joey Harrington is an inferior quarterback whether Daunte is in the middle of a slow process of getting use to his knee or not. Cleo Lemon is an inferior quarterback as well. Gus Frerotte would be an inferior quarterback and so would be Sage Rosenfels.

So the question becomes, is he at risk of re-injury? The answer is an overwhelming NO. He hasn't even suffered any swelling in the knee and the guy has been knocked around as much as you can be at this point.

He is HEALTHY. Is he optimal? No. But even at less than optimum, Daunte is still the best QB option we have.

Do we say that the Bengals rushed Carson Palmer back? I think the Bengals are very happy that Carson is playing, even with the 11 sacks in three games, rather than having Anthony Wright come in and play for him.

Just like Harrington, I thought Wright looked pretty freaking good during preseason. But the current starters for thier respective teams are starting for a reason, simply because they are better QB's.
 
rdhstlr23 said:
Trent Green-was put on IR after the 1st or 2nd preseason game. However, if I remember correctly there was a bit of grumbling because I thought Green believed he could make it back quickly and play (of course he was still trying to keep his job as he wasn't established like he is now).

But, you're right CK, I can't really think of many QBs with the blown out knees. Mike Vick hurt the ankle/leg. Mark Brunell busted his knee up too, and until last year he was never the same. Didn't Elway hurt his knee? It's funny how I say I can't remember too many and now they're coming to me...haha. But, I understand you're point it's not something that's well versed for QBs.

You bring up some great examples I think.

I for one had completely forgotten about Trent Green's preseason knee injury. He had his knee shredded a LOT like Daunte did...was out the entire 1999 season. By the time he came back, Kurt Warner was the league MVP. He played for 8 games in 2000...and was sacked 24 times. This is a guy who normally gets sacked once every 15.5 pass attempts...and in 2000, coming off the knee injury, he was sacked once every 10 pass attempts.

Similarly, Daunte Culpepper is a guy who normally gets sacked once every 11.5 pass attempts...and he is now getting sacked once every 6.5 pass attempts.

And, Carson Palmer is normally a guy who gets sacked once every 21.5 pass attempts, and now he's getting sacked once every 7.7 pass attempts.

So this is absolutely normal for Daunte to be going through this. As for the question of whether Daunte in his current condition is better than Joey Harrington or not, trust me when I say that if the coaches felt Joey was better until Daunte gets use to the knee, Joey would be in. Saban doesn't give a rats arse about controversies, because it is QUITE obvious that the guy we paid a 2nd for is our starter for the present and future rather than the white guy we paid a 6th for.
 
ckparrothead said:
You bring up some great examples I think.

I for one had completely forgotten about Trent Green's preseason knee injury. He had his knee shredded a LOT like Daunte did...was out the entire 1999 season. By the time he came back, Kurt Warner was the league MVP. He played for 8 games in 2000...and was sacked 24 times. This is a guy who normally gets sacked once every 15.5 pass attempts...and in 2000, coming off the knee injury, he was sacked once every 10 pass attempts.

Similarly, Daunte Culpepper is a guy who normally gets sacked once every 11.5 pass attempts...and he is now getting sacked once every 6.5 pass attempts.

And, Carson Palmer is normally a guy who gets sacked once every 21.5 pass attempts, and now he's getting sacked once every 7.7 pass attempts.

So this is absolutely normal for Daunte to be going through this. As for the question of whether Daunte in his current condition is better than Joey Harrington or not, trust me when I say that if the coaches felt Joey was better until Daunte gets use to the knee, Joey would be in. Saban doesn't give a rats arse about controversies, because it is QUITE obvious that the guy we paid a 2nd for is our starter for the present and future rather than the white guy we paid a 6th for.

That was a great post untill ya had to say 'The White Guy'......whys it matter if he is white or arab or black or martian?
 
footballphin said:
I think it's funny these are the conclusions you draw from the current situation. I think reality is exactly the opposite of what you describe. The press all along have been quoting the experts on how long it takes to come back fully from those kinds of injuries.

The press got the rehab and recovery times exactly right. The reality is that both Daunte and Carson have come back before they were at 100%, that's why we see them struggling with sacks, etc.

The wrong estimates come in when people have assumed that if they are playing they were ahead of schedule on their recoveries. People's expectations about their play were based on believing that they were fully recovered but they aren't.

Their teams have just decided that they are recovered enough that they aren't especially prone to further injury so they are going to play them even though they aren't fully recovered.

This is just not true. Nobody EVER claimed that either Daunte Culpepper or Carson Palmer were "fully recovered". All they've ever said is they are medically cleared and healthy. As Saban has said, it is not a medical issue anymore, it is an issue of managing your body.

Players play injured all the time, they have to learn to play injured or they will not be in the NFL for very long. Most every player on defense will tell you that at any given point he has SOME injury he's fighting...it's about managing the injury and staying effective.

The media claimed that Daunte and Carson might be OUT for the entire 2006 SEASON. They've been completely dumb-struck by the fact that both Carson AND Daunte have not only achieved medical clearance to play (which means they are at no risk of re-injury) but that they've been able to take part in training camp and preseason.

They got it wrong by a country mile.
 
My previous post was not an argument to put Joey in. My comments were in attempt to express concern if the Dolphins are putting Culpepper in the heat of the battle to early. I am concerned that due to his ongoing recovery coupled with a so-so offensive line could this result in long-term affects to his on the field presence and confidence. There are few people in the NFL that wonder if David Carr will ever be the quarterback he should be due to high number of sacks and abuse he has suffered while being with the Texans. I am more concerned with his long-term recovery than the here and now.
Remember he was selected as THE franchise quarterback not a stop-gap measure like Gus was.
 
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