Quarterbacks... what makes 'em tick? | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Quarterbacks... what makes 'em tick?

A

ajajaj

Practice Squad
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
Messages
841
Reaction score
0
Just want to post a question to all who would like to throw two cents in.

How much of a quarterbacks play do you think is made up of the coaching staff (gameplanning, film studdy, and the like) vs. god given ability (physical practice, arm strength and so on) in todays NFL?

Please give reasons for your answers so we can all discuss it.:)
 
My personal opinion is that while in todays NFL quarterbacks are required to make all the throws, and read defenses by using god given accuracy and vision. I strongly beleive the days of Marino, Montana, and Elway are gone.

In todays NFL so much pressure is placed on the coaches to "win now" that they are in most cases power mongers that take running an offense out of the QB's hands, with the exception of Payton Manning, maybe.

I even think Peyton's rediculous looking use of many audibles every play of every game while confusing to all is scripted and coached. I've seen him "change the play" or call two to three "audibles"(knowing some are only a ruse) two or three times even when the Defense doesn't react or change to the first call he barks out.

When I would watch Marino, Montana, and Elway they would call audibles and change the play at the line to attack weak points in the apposing defenses.

Coaches for about the last 5 - 7 years have really seemed to want to clamp down on how much control the QB has in the game and in doing so making the QB merely a reflection of the Coach or the Offensive coordinator.

One way I would justify this comparison is look at Culpepper(sp) this year vs. year past. Did he suddenly become a terrible QB, or did his strategic leader head south to Miami.

How do you explain QB's like dilfer who completely suck under one head coach then go to another system/coaching staff and win a SB looking nearly flawless.

Ok, feel free to rip my answer to my own question apart, I'm a big boy and can handle it. Have fun:)
 
Good point, but without natural talent no way can they fulfill what the coaches expect.
 
I don't believe there is a true answer to this question. :confused: It depends on the coach and the QB, intermixed with the circumstances at hand that determines how things play out. Remember that Shula was a run first/defensive minded coach for most of his early to mid career times. Shula didn't change his tactics (of letting the qb run the offense) until Dan the Man came on board. There aren't many QB's who actually run the offense like Dan did (Manning being the exception now, and maybe Favre),

I think it's the QB and talent level that determines who really runs the offense. The Marino's are far and few between, and not many playing today.
 
I think it takes at least a bit of both. Probably the best example I can give is Tom Brady and Bill B. Brady is certainly a good QB with great patience and awareness. Is he the best QB in the league when it comes to raw talent, no. But, Throw BB into the equation and you have a combination that few have figured out how to beat. They rarely tear a team up, but they get done what needs to be done in order to win.
 
dolphinsjayshaw said:
I think it takes at least a bit of both. Probably the best example I can give is Tom Brady and Bill B. Brady is certainly a good QB with great patience and awareness. Is he the best QB in the league when it comes to raw talent, no. But, Throw BB into the equation and you have a combination that few have figured out how to beat. They rarely tear a team up, but they get done what needs to be done in order to win.
Click to expand...

I think you kind of summed up my point. Put Brady on the Cardinals team, or in Detroit with the gameplanning or lack their of and he winds up turning into a QB that can't win a game.

You take Rich Gannon a career back up QB put him on the Raiders, with some gameplanning and a strong cast and he looks like a young stud again lighting up the scoreboard.

Look at how indy's O has taken a turn for the worse since loosing their O coordinator. Look at Minn. leads the league in INT's which two years ago Culpepper was know for not turning the ball over.

Brady has stayed constant where he is, but he is a cast away from another team, that got a shot, and fit into a well devised scheme created before him, but then around him.

Look at basically our same offense from last year lighting it up. These phins look NOTHING like last year in any aspect of the game. Not many players changed on the O. Frerotte might be better than people expect him to be based on his past, but maybe he has just found his niche.

Or maybe in the right system for them almost any pro QB can succeed.
 
Everyone talked about how brady was such a "Team guy" when he took a below average contract to stay with the pats. But if he did go free agent and sign with another team would his flaws be exposed? You can talk about BB all you want. But the fact is he takes average players and coaches them up.
Here's a small list of players who played their best for BB, but have shown less than stellar results in other systems:
Tebucky jones
Corey Dillon
Mike Vrabel
Antowain Smith
David Patten
Just to name a few... It's nothing against these players, Marino in the wrong system would look like a bust (Thanks for the Handcuffs JJ). But maybe Brady knew he wouldnt be as good in another system, thus he took the Smaller contract to guarantee him of having a better chance of earning most of it.

But back to the point... There are very few "field Generals" left. Head coaches and Offensive cordinator's careers are tied to their QB. Case in point, pennington goes down and immediatly every one is talking about firing Herm. Coaches want some one with football ability, but who will also follow their plan to the T. If they are tied to their QB they want to be the one pulling the string.

Even take vick, he was fantastic (as a player not really as a QB) before he went to the west coast system. His improvisation took him to another level. So whats the first thing they do? assert their control.

There are very few QB's in the league that still audible. Peyton is the only one who still calls most of his own plays. The general has been exchanged for a seargent. Ask your self...When was the last time you saw the great QB's looking to the sideline for help? These days there is nothing new with the players. So what if they are faster, they are
all faster. The thing that has chenged is the scheme. Coaches don't bring players when they are hired. They bring a playbook, and then look for some one to execute it.

The great coaches bring an idea, Then they collect their players, Then they write the book together.

Maybe Brady ousted Bledsoe so well because he just wanted to win, and Bledsoe as a former #1 pick just wanted to be great....
 
Tom Brady is one of the greatest Qb's ever, he's not the most talented, but he's got "it," he throws one of the best deep balls i've seen. I think it's the mental aspect of the game, a ton of Qb's have great physical tools, look at Boller and Harrington, but they don't seem comfortable on the field. Coaches over coach some Qb's, and get too many things running through there heads, where they can't succeed, rather than just letting a guy go out there and play, which also hurts a QB, IMO.
 
keeping it short:

considering the complexity and athleticism of today's defenses vs. years past, today's QB must rely more on decision-making than instincts

also, accurate film study and football IQ seem more important today than raw talent- which got some guys, even marino to an extent, by in the past

:2c:
 
I seem to be one of the few that seems to think this QB thing is not as important as some think. Someone name ONE team in history that built their system around an ALL WORLD QB and won anything. Just ONE. Follow my rant here, would you compare Marino to likes of Griese? Would it have mattered if he (Griese) would have sat out that last game? Better yet, Why was Shula able to keep every player concentrated on accomplishing a perfect season, with a journeyman 2nd string QB no less... but could not win a ring with a QB that holds almost every record in the book?

Oh, it's because he had no running game...
Oh no, wait, it's because of that horrible defensive coordinator. Give me a break.

Another example...Everyone always ask, "What if Marino was on those 49ers team?" How about asking,"What if Marino was on any of those new england teams that won 3 out of the last 4 years?" "What if Brady was on those 49ers team?" Would it matter? How about the Fiedler of the 70's, Bradshaw? Dilfer? BRAD JOHNSON? BRAD JOHNSON!?

QBs are playmakers by nature, but only due to the fact that they have no other choice when the ball is in their hands. Either they make a big play, a routine throw, a mistake, or get killed. That, people, sounds alot like trusting an arm on the fate of chance. Can anyone argue that Marino in his last seasons, or even Brett Farve in the present, would have to force throws and wish for the best being a part of those great 49ers or Patriots team? Come on. The system in those dynasties made their QBs GREAT, Marino made his team a contender. That is a HUGE difference. Another example...Bob Griese is a HOF'er, but yet his son, having a better career completion average, and better skills IMO, is a journeyman? Reason? His son hasn't found a system to make him great.

Earl Morrall or Griese?
Bradshaw or Namath?
Montana or Young?
Payton or Montana??????
My son or Fiedler?

Any NFL caliber QB should be able to execute what is asked of them in a well guided system. It's been proven over and over since the start of this game.
 
djfresh47 said:
Tom Brady is one of the greatest Qb's ever, he's not the most talented, but he's got "it," he throws one of the best deep balls i've seen. I think it's the mental aspect of the game, a ton of Qb's have great physical tools, look at Boller and Harrington, but they don't seem comfortable on the field. Coaches over coach some Qb's, and get too many things running through there heads, where they can't succeed, rather than just letting a guy go out there and play, which also hurts a QB, IMO.
Click to expand...


I can't knock Brady too much, but "one of the greatest ever" is a misnomer for him...I put him in the category of Montana...Brady, since day one as a starter has had a fantastic surrounding cast and has never had to carry his team on his back.. neither did Montana, and when he had to (with the Cheifs) he couldn't do it.

Elway, Marino, Favre, Staubach, Unitas...those are guys that could carry their teams. McNabb may just be approaching that level as well, but needs to do it for a while longer. Granted, guys like that don't come along every day, but Brady is no comparison to those guys yet. He still has a long way to go and may prove to be "the man", but not yet...he has to do it without a supporting cast like those others I mentioned had to...
 
So, it seems like a collective feeling somewhat, that QB's (even the great ones) need the system to be successful.

Example, Brady is not as good a QB as Marino, however, if you put Marino in his "hayday" in the exact system Brady is running absolutely perfectly Marino possibly won't look as good?

and vice versa if you put Brady in shula's scheme he probably would not have excelled to the level Marino did.

and I'm not really comparing these two QB's just using them for this example.

So, if these statements are true and you had say Brady as a starter and Peyton Manning as his back up and Brady goes out with an injury, could manning come into the exact same system without changing a thing and be just as succesful?

Or switch places with them and Put manning as the starter in Indy's O last year, then when he goes down could Brady just step in and do the same job?
 
LarryFinFan said:
I can't knock Brady too much, but "one of the greatest ever" is a misnomer for him...I put him in the category of Montana...Brady, since day one as a starter has had a fantastic surrounding cast and has never had to carry his team on his back.. neither did Montana, and when he had to (with the Cheifs) he couldn't do it.

Elway, Marino, Favre, Staubach, Unitas...those are guys that could carry their teams. McNabb may just be approaching that level as well, but needs to do it for a while longer. Granted, guys like that don't come along every day, but Brady is no comparison to those guys yet. He still has a long way to go and may prove to be "the man", but not yet...he has to do it without a supporting cast like those others I mentioned had to...
Click to expand...

One of my points in this post was not to "bash" Brady, but just to question his talent.

With that being said I think Brady is a good, not great but good QB that is the benefactor of a brilliantly coached team, both on offense and defense.

I think Brady has probably the best composure of any passer ever, very calm and steady, but I don't think he is one of the greats, BB is just a master of molding his schemes to make the most of the benefits of each of his players.
 
ajajaj said:
My personal opinion is that while in todays NFL quarterbacks are required to make all the throws, and read defenses by using god given accuracy and vision. I strongly beleive the days of Marino, Montana, and Elway are gone.

In todays NFL so much pressure is placed on the coaches to "win now" that they are in most cases power mongers that take running an offense out of the QB's hands, with the exception of Payton Manning, maybe.

I even think Peyton's rediculous looking use of many audibles every play of every game while confusing to all is scripted and coached. I've seen him "change the play" or call two to three "audibles"(knowing some are only a ruse) two or three times even when the Defense doesn't react or change to the first call he barks out.

When I would watch Marino, Montana, and Elway they would call audibles and change the play at the line to attack weak points in the apposing defenses.

Coaches for about the last 5 - 7 years have really seemed to want to clamp down on how much control the QB has in the game and in doing so making the QB merely a reflection of the Coach or the Offensive coordinator.

One way I would justify this comparison is look at Culpepper(sp) this year vs. year past. Did he suddenly become a terrible QB, or did his strategic leader head south to Miami.

How do you explain QB's like dilfer who completely suck under one head coach then go to another system/coaching staff and win a SB looking nearly flawless.

Ok, feel free to rip my answer to my own question apart, I'm a big boy and can handle it. Have fun:)
Click to expand...

It all ended in 1996 when JJ forbif marino to call audibles
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom