Ryan Tannehill 2013: QB Pressure, Completion %, Deep Passing, & YPA Statistics | Page 20 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Ryan Tannehill 2013: QB Pressure, Completion %, Deep Passing, & YPA Statistics

Gravity,

With respect to DVOA and the like, are these statistics totally independent of the team's efficacy in other phases of the game? Suppose Tannehill faces twice as many 3rd down and 10+ yards to go instances versus the average QB or the top QB's? I am assuming DVOA rewards a completion that results in a 1st down more than completions which do not. If so, is Tannehill being penalized under the assumption that he is facing more adverse down and distance situations than other QB's? And I am assuming that if he is put in these worse situations by being sacked more and having an ineffective running game, that the DVOA does not reflect that he is not responsible for being in more of these situations, for the most part.
Based on the functional equivalence between DVOA and YPA statistics, I think the following post I did the other day is relevant to your question:

Your line of reasoning inspired me to do a t-test comparing the top 10 QBs in the table in the original post with the QBs ranked 41 through 50 in the table, based on their season-by-season YPAs throughout their careers, using only the seasons in which they started 10 or more games.

If it's true that supporting cast variables are more responsible than individual QB ability for YPA, then the within-group variation should be at least non-significantly different from the between-group variation.

This isn't the case, however. The mean of the QBs in the 1-10 group is 7.73, with a variance of 0.659, and the mean of the QBs in the 41-50 group is 6.98, with a variance of 0.277.

This leads to a t-statistic of 6.75, with a p-value of 0.0000000004.

In other words, there is a four in one trillion chance that the observed difference in the means between the two groups would occur by chance.

This supports the analogy I used earlier in the thread regarding weather and climate. Although there may be variation in the weather (i.e., variation from season to season in QBs' YPAs), the climate (i.e., QBs' individual ability) is driving the bus to a far greater extent.

In other words, while Peyton Manning's YPA may vary between 6.5 and 9.2, and while Mark Brunnell's YPA may vary between 6.3 and 7.8, despite the variation in both QBs' YPAs, Peyton Manning's average YPA is significantly higher than Mark Brunnell's. And this is the case for the larger comparison as well, between QBs 1-10 and QBs 41-50 in the table.

That about does it on that front, folks. :)
The "table" referred to in the above post is this one:

http://www.pro-football-reference.c...pos_is_db=Y&draft_pos_is_k=Y&draft_pos_is_p=Y

In other words, while it certainly makes sense and is prudent to consider situational variables in theory, I think these things we're talking about are being driven to a much, much greater extent by QBs' individual ability. Even the QBs' DVOA rankings themselves correlate with the consensus perceptions of individual ability.

Then of course there is also the additional layer of complexity to consider when addressing issues of individual ability versus situational variables, in that quarterbacks with better individual ability are likely going to improve the play of everyone around them.

To use an extreme example, Peyton Manning is so good at bringing the entire playbook to the line of scrimmage, making audibles to the correct play, and getting rid of the ball quickly, that we probably really have no idea how good or bad the Denver offensive line truly is. They could be utter garbage, and his play alone is going to mitigate that considerably. Likewise for running games, whereby defenses have to respect the ability of a great QB and can't sell out against the run game, lest the QB torch them downfield.

Now, I will concede this, however: given that the YPAs of even great QBs do vary from season to season, likely due to situational variables, we don't yet have enough of a sample size to determine whether Ryan Tannehill's relatively low YPAs in his first two seasons represents such variation.

However, once again, when we look through the game-to-game data and find that his performance in 2013 didn't improve when he was either 1) sacked less, or 2) the beneficiary of a better running game, and we consider that he wasn't pressured any more often than the average QB, it isn't a promising sign in my opinion, because there is no objective evidence available, then, to suggest that his overall YPA in 2013 was due more to those situational variables than to his own individual ability.
 
In fact, adjusted net YPA differential is more strongly correlated with winning (0.84) than is points scored on offense (0.73).

You seem to think that is surprising (since you emphasized "points Scored"). Not sure why. Football is a team game (offense and defense), so net YPA differential is accounting passing offense and defense.
 
Now, I will concede this, however: given that the YPAs of even great QBs do vary from season to season, likely due to situational variables, we don't yet have enough of a sample size to determine whether Ryan Tannehill's relatively low YPAs in his first two seasons represents such variation.

And you are also comparing Tannehill's first 2 seasons to seasoned veterans in many cases. Compare Tannehill's first 2 seasons to Brady's first 2 seasons, not his whole career. Not to mention that the offense as a whole was inefficient. Also, there are factors that have shown to decrease YPA:

1. Offensive system (http://www.footballperspective.com/yards-per-attempt-where-does-it-go-wrong/)

Whatever the theory, this chart makes it clear that Yards per Attempt isn’t really system-neutral.

2. Predictability of a pass (http://www.quantcoach.com/5thCommandment.htm)

Advancednflstats.com also has found that the converse is true: YPA decreases as passing becomes more predictable.[/B

As further explained by the 6th Commandment and 7th Commandment, YPA is the measure of total offensive efficiency. YPA tells you not how much yardage your offense has gained; YPA tells you how well your offense is gaining yardage. YPA is not a quantity; YPA is a quality. Thus, unlike quantity statistics such as passing yards, which only tell you what has happened in the past, YPA provides an indication as to what you can rationally expect in the future on any down that the offense attempts to pass.

YPA clearly is the result of the combination of play design and play-making. "We devised plays to eliminate everyone but the man covering Jerry Rice," Walsh once said. "That matchup we'd virtually always win." In 1989, San Francisco created and won so many matchups that the 49ers posted an all-time best 9.491 YPA.
]


I read complaints ALL SEASON about the Dolphins offense being predictable.

However, once again, when we look through the game-to-game data and find that his performance in 2013 didn't improve when he was either 1) sacked less, or 2) the beneficiary of a better running game

Really???????? :crazy: Why do you continue to pretend that expected outcomes are evidence against Tannehill?

Everyone needs to read this article one hundred times:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2013/film-room-tannehill-haden

It seems like the author is talking about a different player than the Tannehaters bash:

Tannehill was officially sacked just twice, but his ability was the primary reason why the sack number was so low and why the offense was able to put points on the board. Tannehill, a former wide receiver in college, is quietly a very athletic player who can escape pressure with his feet or throw strikes deep down the field even when throwing from tough body contortions.
 
You seem to think that is surprising (since you emphasized "points Scored"). Not sure why. Football is a team game (offense and defense), so net YPA differential is accounting passing offense and defense.
Right, but given that adjusted net YPA is so strongly correlated (in my opinion) with the perceptions of individual QBs' ability, I think it's striking to see that, in essence, having a QB who can perform better than the opponent's QB, and/or having a defense that can make opposing QBs perform worse than your own, accounts for 18% more of the variance in wins than does the number of points teams score. Of course other people, depending on their viewpoint, may not perceive that as so striking, if at all.
 
Right, but given that adjusted net YPA is so strongly correlated (in my opinion) with the perceptions of individual QBs' ability, I think it's striking to see that, in essence, having a QB who can perform better than the opponent's QB, and/or having a defense that can make opposing QBs perform worse than your own, accounts for 18% more of the variance in wins than does the number of points teams score. Of course other people, depending on their viewpoint, may not perceive that as so striking, if at all.

Not at all.
 
2. Predictability of a pass (http://www.quantcoach.com/5thCommandment.htm)

I read complaints ALL SEASON about the Dolphins offense being predictable.
So then the task (for you or someone else) is to show that, when the offense was more balanced between the pass and the run, Tannehill's YPA improved. Is that the case?

Really???????? :crazy: Why do you continue to pretend that expected outcomes are evidence against Tannehill?
Why wouldn't the league-wide absence of correlations you're talking about be evidence against any QB when considering whether his YPA is likely to improve as a function of a decrease in sacks or an improvement in the running game? The game-to-game data simply represents an exploration of whether Tannehill was an exception to the rule, does it not?
 
So then the task (for you or someone else) is to show that, when the offense was more balanced between the pass and the run, Tannehill's YPA improved. Is that the case?

No. That is only the task if you are OBSESSED with finding a way to blame Tannehill for the offensive inefficiency. I am quite comfortable with my opinion that many factors were at play. There are numerous studies that show this. You would need to prove that this was not the case for the Dolphins and that Tannehill is somehow unique. Unless you have a way of holding ALL of the other variables constant while only substituting Tannehill, it is a fool's errand.

Why wouldn't the league-wide absence of correlations you're talking about be evidence against any QB when considering whether his YPA is likely to improve as a function of a decrease in sacks or an improvement in the running game? The game-to-game data simply represents an exploration of whether Tannehill was an exception to the rule, does it not?

Since he is not an exception to the rule, what EXACTLY does that show? What point are you trying to prove by posting that over and over?
 
No. That is only the task if you are OBSESSED with finding a way to blame Tannehill for the offensive inefficiency. I am quite comfortable with my opinion that many factors were at play. There are numerous studies that show this. You would need to prove that this was not the case for the Dolphins and that Tannehill is somehow unique. Unless you have a way of holding ALL of the other variables constant while only substituting Tannehill, it is a fool's errand.
Well I'm quite comfortable with that being your opinion as well, if that's all it is.

Since he is not an exception to the rule, what EXACTLY does that show? What point are you trying to prove by posting that over and over?
That there is no evidence to be found that his YPA changes as a function of sacks or running game variables.
 
I was only lured into this thread because I did not recognize the user name, so I will say goodbye with some words of wisdom from the ABC of statistics. Not that I'm a statistician or even have a solid grasp on the subject, but even I know this:

Correlation does not imply causation. ¡Boom!
 
I was only lured into this thread because I did not recognize the user name, so I will say goodbye with some words of wisdom from the ABC of statistics. Not that I'm a statistician or even have a solid grasp on the subject, but even I know this:

Correlation does not imply causation. ¡Boom!

Also, causation does not require correlation. Boom, Boom!
 
That is what we all have.
Sure, although the evidence it can be based can vary in multiple ways. One can have the opinion that if the offense were less predictable, Tannehill's YPA would be higher, and of course that opinion is much stronger if indeed his YPA was higher when the offense was more balanced. If that opinion is based on theory alone, of course it's a weaker opinion.

Of course in the end, however, you're going to hold whatever opinions you'd like, and believe them to be as strong or as weak as you'd like, and we can sure agree to disagree on them, as well. :)

And that is important, how?
It's evidence that the null hypothesis that there are no relationships among those variables, for Tannehill in particular, shouldn't be rejected.
 
It's evidence that the null hypothesis that there are no relationships among those variables, for Tannehill in particular, shouldn't be rejected.

So what? It says nothing about Tannehill because that is the expected outcome based multi-year, multi-QB, multi-system studies.

The fixation on YPA is badly misplaced. It blinds you from looking at the impact of sacks, the running game, play calling, etc on offensive production and ultimately winning.

http://fantasyfootballcalculator.com/blog/2008/10/does-protecting-the-quarterback-help/

There seems to be a clear trend that fewer sacks per game improves a team’s chances of winning. The R-squared value for that trend is 0.29, which isn’t large, but is significant as far as football statistics go.

This study also points out the impact on sack rate. They are only slightly less impactful than interceptions.

http://www.footballperspective.com/correlating-passing-stats-with-wins/
 
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