Sam and Pat, Shut-Down Corners/Did we Improved our Pass Defense? | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Sam and Pat, Shut-Down Corners/Did we Improved our Pass Defense?

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Disnardo

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Hey Dolfans, still in the discussion mode this offseason. Looking at some stats from "The 2-Minute Warning" and "Pro-Football-Reference" sites, concerning our All-Pro cornerbacks, since our Passing Defense took a Big drop last year.

Most Fin fans, think we have 2 of the Top 10 CBs in our team. Well, this past year (2003), we were ranked, the 5th team with the "Best CB tandem in the NFL." We actually improved from the year before (ranked 12th). Our All-Pro CBs were not the reason for our Pass Defense weakness this past year, IMO it were the LB/DBs playing in the nickle and dime packages...

In 02 our Pass ranking was # 11-
The Dolphins CBs tandem were ranked as # 12, and Pat and Sam gave up 13 TDs, caught 10 INTs, and gave up 1,738 yards (including penalties). Opponents completed 56.7% of the passes against them (51% of total passing yards).

The rest of the defensive secondary gave up 1,641 yards (only 49% of total passing yards).

In 03 our Pass ranking was # 21-
The Dolphins CBs tandem improved to # 5, and Pat and Sam gave up only 5 TDs, caught 12 INTs, and gave up 1,644 yards (including penalties). Opponents completed 56.3% of the passes against them (46% of total passing yards).

The rest of the defensive secondary gave up 1,944 yards (54% of total passing yards). This was an 18% increase in yards over 02, which would reflect in the lot of missed tackles and coverage mistakes that we saw throughout the year, specially when we needed to get off the field.

So, we added Howard, and Poole, re-signed Freeman and with others in the secondary coming back from injury this year, we should be able to help out Pat and Sam...

Did we do enough to get us back on track in the secondary?
 
our D was fine except for the Philly game. Stats or no stats we s/have won lots of game easier and won 1 or 2 more games if we have a little better run blocking and a lot better passing game. Also, our run D was absolutely phenomenal in 2003. That made people throw the ball and inflated our passing stats.

To answer your question, I w/say it is undecided if the Howard will be better than T buck and Edwards/Freeman will be better than Marion. We did get mucho younger so the moves are not necessarily meant to improve us in 04, but beyond as well
 
Interesting point disnardo. We used a lot of zone last year and a zone defense requires 0 errors and we blew our coverage a lot. Our defense changed last year of course but we made so many crucial errors.
 
You misread

These stats aren't accurate. They aren't exclusive to Pat and Sam. Rather, they're a summary of how well the entire defense did against each team's starting WRs.

http://www.twominutewarning.com/cb1.htm said:
The following statistics show how teams have defensed the starting/top two wide receivers of the opposing team throughout the season. All plays where a pass was directed to one of the two "prime target" WR's is counted, with such things as a defensive pass interference call counting as a "completed" pass for the appropriate yardage to fully reflect what took place.
Click to expand...

FYI - Miami ranked #1 in TD passes allowed to starting/top 2 WRs in '03. Overall, the Miami defense ranked #2 in TD passes allowed and #7 in INTs.

We're plenty strong at CB. It's the safety position that is of concern. Hopefully Freeman can back up what he's promising.
 
Our secondary should be fine. We will have more speed at safety since Freeman is replacing Marion, and we have some solid depth at CB. I'm not worried about the secondary. If Freeman plays like he did in 2002, then we are in trouble, but if he improves, we should be fine.
 
Muck said:
These stats aren't accurate. They aren't exclusive to Pat and Sam. Rather, they're a summary of how well the entire defense did against each team's starting WRs.



FYI - Miami ranked #1 in TD passes allowed to starting/top 2 WRs in '03. Overall, the Miami defense ranked #2 in TD passes allowed and #7 in INTs.

We're plenty strong at CB. It's the safety position that is of concern. Hopefully Freeman can back up what he's promising.
Click to expand...

Sorry Muck, I have to agree to disagree. ;)

Muck, how can you tell me that the top two WRs on the opponents team are not protected by Sam and/or Pat? Do we always place the top WR against LBs and other DBs? Are the opponents always getting the miss-matches against us? I don't think that happens the majority of the time and I don't believe I misread the meaning of the statement. We do use Sam and Pat for most of the game against other team's top two WRs, can anyone else interpret it any different?

Edited-
FYI- we were #21 in Total Passing yards allowed, # 21 in 3rd Down Attempts, # 18 in FD allowed, and # 15 in 3rd Down allowed by opponents. Also opponents only had 9 more pass attempts in 03 than 02...

I believe that our offense caused some pain for our defense, but, bottom line when we needed the defense to get off the field they kept their ranked in the middle to lower half of the pack...
 
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Muck said:
These stats aren't accurate. They aren't exclusive to Pat and Sam. Rather, they're a summary of how well the entire defense did against each team's starting WRs.



FYI - Miami ranked #1 in TD passes allowed to starting/top 2 WRs in '03. Overall, the Miami defense ranked #2 in TD passes allowed and #7 in INTs.

We're plenty strong at CB. It's the safety position that is of concern. Hopefully Freeman can back up what he's promising.
Click to expand...

what did freeman promise?
 
Thundercracker said:
what did freeman promise?
Click to expand...

LOL, wasn't it Freeman who got burned a few times in Buffalo in 02? I could be wrong, I just can't remember who was our DB that could not keep up with one of Buff's WR in that game. Does anyone remember? I think he also got burned at KC that year byt T. Gonzalez and P. Holmes, made some moves on him...

Nothing against the guy personally, he has the speed and skills but has not performed like good ole Brian Walker...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolphan39
Also, our run D was absolutely phenomenal in 2003. That made people throw the ball and inflated our passing stats.


Opponents passed only 9 more times against us in 2003 (529 attempts) than in 2002 (520 attempts).
Opponents also ran 4 more times against us in 2003 (411 attempts) than in 2002 (407 attempts).
 
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Our secondary will reek all sorts of havok for opposing QBs,
Surtain
Madison
Howard
Poole
T-Buck wait! where are you

This sounds to me like a pretty tuff zone d-fense w/ the exception of one in a real game
 
Disnardo said:
Sorry Muck, I have to agree to disagree. ;)

Muck, how can you tell me that the top two WRs on the opponents team are not protected by Sam and/or Pat? Do we always place the top WR against LBs and other DBs? Are the opponents always getting the miss-matches against us? I don't think that happens the majority of the time and I don't believe I misread the meaning of the statement. We do use Sam and Pat for most of the game against other team's top two WRs, can anyone else interpret it any different?
Click to expand...

Was that Pat Surtain or Sam Madison covering Troy Brown on the 82-yard bomb?? Are the safeties not responsible for deep coverage?? Do we not play zones?? Do the other teams' top receivers always line up outside?? What about the Tennessee game in which Pat Surtain didn't play in?? Does that count too??

There's a lot more to it than just lining up your top CBs on their top WRs and letting them go 1-on-1 all day, all over the field. Just doesn't happen.

FYI- we were #21 in Total Passing yards allowed, # 21 in 3rd Down Attempts, # 18 in FD allowed, and # 15 in 3rd Down allowed by opponents. Also opponents only had 9 more pass attempts in 03 than 02...
Click to expand...

But when it came down to it, they couldn't score. Kinda like Buffalo's old 'Bend-But-Don't-Break' defense. And nobody could run on us. Didn't give up a single 100-yard rusher this year. Also, we were 9th in passing attempts (passes we faced). 530 attempts - 12 TDs.

IMO you're reading far too much into the stats. :)
 
No one has mentioned what I think is the most important future consideration for our 2004 pass defense...............does Wale re-sign! Pass defense is not just about the cover guys but also about how long they are required to cover. Having Taylor and Wale rushing a QB and hurrying his throws is a key component to our overall pass defense.
 
to be honest there were alot of junk passing yards in the 3rd and 4th quarters of games we were winning... giants, jets, bills, etc, etc!!! ... so the pass ranking was lower .. IMO the secondary should be better based on the zone coverage skills of poole and howard.. and the speed of edwards and freeman in coverage ... i did notice the drop off in coverage in comparision to 2002 .. but it was partly due to the new zone scheme and junk yards other teams got in latter 1/2 of games .. the secondary looks to be awesome on paper.. i can only hope it plays like it looks in 2004 !!! GO DEFENSE!!!!
 
Sam Madison, and shut down, should not be used together.

Patrick = not only shut down, he's a sit down and shut the fluck up corner.
 
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