Schein: Ross is clueless and Miami has the worst quarterback corps in the league | Page 8 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Schein: Ross is clueless and Miami has the worst quarterback corps in the league

I've always said Moore is an average QB. I like him but he isn't a franchise guy. Looking at the 2011 season, the Dolphins lost to the following teams to get to 0-7:

San Diego - His first game action with the Dolphins. He didn't do enough and had an average game at best.
NY Jets - Below average game
Denver - If defense stopped Tebow once in the 4th qtr, the game would've been won
NY Giants - If defense holds again, they'd win another one

They then win 3 straight vs Kansas City, Washington, and Buffalo where Moore throws 6 TDs and 1 INT. He starts to look more comfortable.

Thanksgiving game at Dallas - If defense holds, they win the game. Romo drives team down field for GW-FG. Defense fails again.

Wins against Oakland

Loses against Philadelphia - Eagles were on their way to finishing on a positive note for the season. You remember the 45-19 win over the Jets I'm sure.

Wins at Buffalo

Loses in New England by 3 - I knew NE was going to come back and win that game b/c that's the sort of **** those bastards are all about. Moore threw a bad INT in the 3rd qtr that gave them a short field. Otherwise he had 3 TD passes and a 99.8 rating

End the season with a win vs the Jets

So IMO he was average or worse in 3 games the team lost. The defense blew 3 other games for the Dolphins as well. If the defense had any true balls, the Phins would have finished at least 9-7. I know it goes both ways but it's a fact the defense gave up leads late in 3 of the games I detailed.

That all being said, Moore is still an average QB who will throw together some good games that are rounded out with average ones. Is he better than Henne in Miami? There isn't enough of a sample size yet to have an answer for that (at least on my end).

Yes D blew Den game but Moore did very little, he led them to 15 pts and they had a 15-0 lead and got the ball back w/ 5:50 to play and they had a quick 3 and out and in OT he had TWO possessions to win the game and failed.

against NYG: had a great start but only led his O to 3 pts in the 2nd half.

There wasn't really a single game where he was the primary reason they won, of their 6 wins the D alloweed more than 20 one time and those pts were mostly garbage time points.

I love Moore as a backup, I'd be fine w/ him as a QB starting a game here and there but it would be insane for any team to make him a permanent starter and build around him which was why Miami drafted a QB for that.

---------- Post added at 09:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------

You are basing that off of 1 season. The guy got a concussion in week 1 and only started 5 games before he was placed on IR with a shoulder injury. 1 season as a starter in which he was removed in week 2 is hardly enough to declare that he can only play well when there is no pressure.

Pressure is silly argument anyways since there is always pressure when players are playing for their jobs.

I'm basing it off multiple seasons:

In Carolina:

2009; played great w/ team out of it
2010: stunk starting day 1(spare me the injury excuses)

in Miami: took lover at 0-3, led team to 0-7, after team was out of it he played well.

That's 2 examples. There's a reason Miami drafted a QB and signed another.
 
The context is Miami was 0-3 in 2009, henne started game 4 and Miami eventually was 7-6 and in playoff position. Moore came in at 0-3, started his first game in agme 4 and helped Miami get to 0-7 and out of the race by October.

Oh yea thats right. Good argument. I cant for the life of me remember who was our starting QB when we started 0-3 this year though. Enlighten me.
 
In 2009 Miami was 7-6 and had playoff destiny in their hands, this was after starting 0-3 w/ the better Chad starting. Chad H failed and is not very good but he had you in contention, Matt Moore has only succeeded when seasons were lost. He's never played in a game w/ any type of pressure as a playoff contender.



They contended for the playoffs, I didn't say they made it, they were in the race.



Moore has only had success when his teams have been long out of the race, henne helped bring Miami back in the race. Neither are succesful in any way but Henne is better.



The context is Miami was 0-3 in 2009, henne started game 4 and Miami eventually was 7-6 and in playoff position. Moore came in at 0-3, started his first game in agme 4 and helped Miami get to 0-7 and out of the race by October.



Matt Moore is a quality backup, nothing more. All you hopes are on tannehill, he has the ability to be a good QB in this league.



The pressure was off, he came in at 0-3, there weren't any expectations and he played well until they had a shot at postseason late in the year. very similar to Moore EXCEPT he actually had Miami in contention while Moore had them out of the race by October.


Your spins are getting to be fun because you're at a point where you're contradicting yourself more than Romney and Kerry ever have. You're like the last Flat World holdout after Columbus sailed around it.


First to set the record straight: we differ on all of what follows. Frankly on the basis of that, we both know that anyone who's impartial will agree with me. Consequently I know that Moore is not only a better QB than Henne, but also a better QB than Sanchez. I cannot think of more than 2 teams if that, based on their current starters and draft pick investments who would trade even a 3rd for Sanchez with the idea of giving him the starting job. So to that end, I'd say Sanchez would make a good backup once his testicles finally drop and he stops pouting like a little girl, but until then, he's okay for the backup to the backup.


Now, I'd agree that Henne had us in contention. As a matter of fact we were more in contention legitimately than the jets in 09, Going into game 14, both teams were 7-6 and needed to win; neither did. Beyond that in that season Miami beat the jets twice so were the superior team going into game 15. If not for the scheduling which was so egregious that the league immediately changed its policy to prevent that from ever happening again, there's no reason to think that, if that flooky knee-taking schedule fell our way, the team that beat the jets twice would not have also beaten an Indy team that was not trying and a Cinci team that had its run early on (just like Denver started out 6-0) and died by the time it reached game 16. So yes, Henne was no different than Sanchez in terms of having his team in contention and moving on to the playoffs and likely at the least beating the pathetic Bengals again.


Now I've been telling you for years that Henne was better than Sanchez and that he was victimized by poor and predictible offensive play calling, butter-fingered receivers and turnstyle OLs. You poo poo'ed that..but guess what? As soon as Sanchez started crapping the bed this year, most of those were exactly the same excuses you used to deflect blame and accountability from The Taco. So defiinitely Henne could and would have done whatever Sanchez did and probably more given his supporting cast of characters!


And I'm here to tell you that while Henne is certainly better than the coddled and enabled Sanchez, I've seen with my own eyes in person the difference between Moore and Henne from a skills standpoint, and a leadership standpoint (an "it factor" that Sanchez completely lacks!). So IMO that puts Moore leagues ahead of Sanchez.


Now as far as your BS about pressure: I've been telling you all along that Sanchez has gotten a pressure-free ride. I used the specific word "enabled." When you're in contention for a post season in 2011 at 8-5, and you again crap the bed being blown out by the giants and philly , throwing 3TDs to 4 ints throwing up a 67.5 and a 54.2 QBR respectively, any good coach would try something new with little to lose vs the Fins. Unfortunately, as Sanchez has seen in the past, no one was there to step in for him other than a rusty senior citizen. Now I used "enabled" but the 2 players who each accomplished much more individually than the rest of the jest offensive did collectively and had Brees, Rivers and Big Ben as professional QB standards by which to compare described Taco as "coddled." I found it funny that his 2 most ardent defenders, Keller and Mangold never little other than a passing Penny QB to compare him against and at best used the college skills of Kyle Orton, Mr 4QBR, Curtis Painter and Todd Boeckman and Troy Smith. Now which group knew what they were talking about.


Long way of saying:


Sanchez: present laughing stock among insiders who might become decent backup if he ever grows some cajones and plays with the mindset that he's finally accountable


Henne: as much a victim of circumstances as skills limitation but better than Sanchez


Moore: best of the 3 and it isn't even close

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So in your opinion concussions are no big deal?

Also a torn labrum in his throwing shoulder is no big deal?

They thought Sanchez may have had a concussion early in the year so he played games w/ concussion like symptons then late in the year had a stinger in his neck. If I can use those as excuses you can use the excuses for Moore.

Oh yea thats right. Good argument. I cant for the life of me remember who was our starting QB when we started 0-3 this year though. Enlighten me.

0-3 w/ Henne then started 0-4 w/ Moore, do you think you start 0-7 if henne isn't hurt?
 


I'm basing it off multiple seasons:

In Carolina:

2009; played great w/ team out of it
2010: stunk starting day 1(spare me the injury excuses)

in Miami: took lover at 0-3, led team to 0-7, after team was out of it he played well.

That's 2 examples. There's a reason Miami drafted a QB and signed another.

2009; didn't get the chance to start until Carolina was 4-7 and he brought them back to an 8-8 record. He had limited opportunity in 2010 on an already sinking ship before being placed on injured reserve after 5 games. In 2011 he was also on a sinking ship and on top of that had a small amount of time to learn a new offense. In spite of that, he played well. If he got the type of help that Sanchez has had his first 2 years, they could have won several of those early games he started and made the playoffs. Would you be crediting Moore then for leading them to the playoffs? Just becasue the D didn't come through in spots doesn't change the fact that Moore played good enough for them to win.

How many games has Sanchez been the primary reason the Jets won? I can count more that he has been the primary reason they lost, and yet you still give him all the credit in the world. Sanchez could have easily been removed as the starter multiple times, and played horrible under pressure with 3 games to go this past season. If you are going to say that there are other factors that contributed to Sanchez playing poorly, then you have to give the same to Moore.

Moore isn't great, but he played well 2 out of 3 seasons. He had 12 starts this year and put up very respectable #'s. Better than Henne ever had. You can't brand a QB as not being able to play under pressure based on wins and losses alone. There are many other circumstances that you have to look at.
 
Your spins are getting to be fun because you're at a point where you're contradicting yourself more than Romney and Kerry ever have. You're like the last Flat World holdout after Columbus sailed around it.


First to set the record straight: we differ on all of what follows. Frankly on the basis of that, we both know that anyone who's impartial will agree with me. Consequently I know that Moore is not only a better QB than Henne, but also a better QB than Sanchez. I cannot think of more than 2 teams if that, based on their current starters and draft pick investments who would trade even a 3rd for Sanchez with the idea of giving him the starting job. So to that end, I'd say Sanchez would make a good backup once his testicles finally drop and he stops pouting like a little girl, but until then, he's okay for the backup to the backup.


Now, I'd agree that Henne had us in contention. As a matter of fact we were more in contention legitimately than the jets in 09, Going into game 14, both teams were 7-6 and needed to win; neither did. Beyond that in that season Miami beat the jets twice so were the superior team going into game 15. If not for the scheduling which was so egregious that the league immediately changed its policy to prevent that from ever happening again, there's no reason to think that, if that flooky knee-taking schedule fell our way, the team that beat the jets twice would not have also beaten an Indy team that was not trying and a Cinci team that had its run early on (just like Denver started out 6-0) and died by the time it reached game 16. So yes, Henne was no different than Sanchez in terms of having his team in contention and moving on to the playoffs and likely at the least beating the pathetic Bengals again.


Now I've been telling you for years that Henne was better than Sanchez and that he was victimized by poor and predictible offensive play calling, butter-fingered receivers and turnstyle OLs. You poo poo'ed that..but guess what? As soon as Sanchez started crapping the bed this year, most of those were exactly the same excuses you used to deflect blame and accountability from The Taco. So defiinitely Henne could and would have done whatever Sanchez did and probably more given his supporting cast of characters!


And I'm here to tell you that while Henne is certainly better than the coddled and enabled Sanchez, I've seen with my own eyes in person the difference between Moore and Henne from a skills standpoint, and a leadership standpoint (an "it factor" that Sanchez completely lacks!). So IMO that puts Moore leagues ahead of Sanchez.


Now as far as your BS about pressure: I've been telling you all along that Sanchez has gotten a pressure-free ride. I used the specific word "enabled." When you're in contention for a post season in 2011 at 8-5, and you again crap the bed being blown out by the giants and philly , throwing 3TDs to 4 ints throwing up a 67.5 and a 54.2 QBR respectively, any good coach would try something new with little to lose vs the Fins. Unfortunately, as Sanchez has seen in the past, no one was there to step in for him other than a rusty senior citizen. Now I used "enabled" but the 2 players who each accomplished much more individually than the rest of the jest offensive did collectively and had Brees, Rivers and Big Ben as professional QB standards by which to compare described Taco as "coddled." I found it funny that his 2 most ardent defenders, Keller and Mangold never had a pro QB to compare him against and at best used the college skills of Kyle Orton, Mr 4QBR, Curtis Painter and Todd Boeckman and Troy Smith. Now which group knew what they were talking about.


Long way of saying:


Sanchez: present laughing stock among insiders who might become decent backup if he ever grows some cajones and plays with the mindset that he's finally accountable


Henne: as much a victim of circumstances as skills limitation but better than Sanchez


Moore: best of the 3 and it isn't even close



It's funny how 2 years ago you were telling me how good Henne was just like you were about Sparano. How quickly things change.

Sanchez has a track record of success in big games, henne did not. How can you not see the difference? I know, b/c you hate the Jets and are a dolphin homer so your judgements get distorted.


Your team doesn't agree w/ you, while my team gave our QB a contract extension your team drfated a QB in the 1st rd and signed a vet QB so that should tell you all you really need to know about what they think of Matt Moore.

Sanchez has been under pressure to win since day 1. Rex was talking big from the start, in '09 it was more don't screw it up but he still had to perform in jauary and did so. Matt Moore has never played a meaningful game in this league and has only performed when his teams have been out of the race.


Considering the way you evaluate players, coaches, teams I feel great about you breakdown of the QBs. I look forwar to a year or 2 from now when you tell me how much henne sucks and how great the nes guy is just like you'll tell me how bad Philbin was and be pumping up the new coach:lol:
 
Yes D blew Den game but Moore did very little, he led them to 15 pts and they had a 15-0 lead and got the ball back w/ 5:50 to play and they had a quick 3 and out and in OT he had TWO possessions to win the game and failed.

against NYG: had a great start but only led his O to 3 pts in the 2nd half.

There wasn't really a single game where he was the primary reason they won, of their 6 wins the D alloweed more than 20 one time and those pts were mostly garbage time points.

I love Moore as a backup, I'd be fine w/ him as a QB starting a game here and there but it would be insane for any team to make him a permanent starter and build around him which was why Miami drafted a QB for that.

I do agree that it would've been nice to have a bit more points scored in those games but pro athletes have bad days too. Moore did just enough to give them the lead in those games. Not every game is going to be 31-14.

The defense in Miami has always let them down in one way or another. You've pointed that out too when ZT, JT, Surtain and Co. were here too.

It's true.
 
2009; didn't get the chance to start until Carolina was 4-7 and he brought them back to an 8-8 record. He had limited opportunity in 2010 on an already sinking ship before being placed on injured reserve after 5 games. In 2011 he was also on a sinking ship and on top of that had a small amount of time to learn a new offense. In spite of that, he played well. If he got the type of help that Sanchez has had his first 2 years, they could have won several of those early games he started and made the playoffs. Would you be crediting Moore then for leading them to the playoffs? Just becasue the D didn't come through in spots doesn't change the fact that Moore played good enough for them to win.

How many games has Sanchez been the primary reason the Jets won? I can count more that he has been the primary reason they lost, and yet you still give him all the credit in the world. Sanchez could have easily been removed as the starter multiple times, and played horrible under pressure with 3 games to go this past season. If you are going to say that there are other factors that contributed to Sanchez playing poorly, then you have to give the same to Moore.

Moore isn't great, but he played well 2 out of 3 seasons. He had 12 starts this year and put up very respectable #'s. Better than Henne ever had. You can't brand a QB as not being able to play under pressure based on wins and losses alone. There are many other circumstances that you have to look at.

They were never in the race, those games were meaningless and he played really well.

2010: starts day 1 and is terrible

2011: Miami still has a glimmer of hope, lose first 4 games he plays and are out of the race then he plays well.

Noticing a pattern?

How many games did Car win or Mi win where Moore was the primary reason? sanchez led us back 5-6 times including postseason in 2010, he had a couple of late game comebacks last year too where he threw late TDs to win games(Buf, at Was)

I brand him a QB that can't play under pressure based on his poor play when his teams were still in races and his good play whe teams were out of it.
 
They were never in the race, those games were meaningless and he played really well.

2010: starts day 1 and is terrible

2011: Miami still has a glimmer of hope, lose first 4 games he plays and are out of the race then he plays well.

Noticing a pattern?

How many games did Car win or Mi win where Moore was the primary reason? sanchez led us back 5-6 times including postseason in 2010, he had a couple of late game comebacks last year too where he threw late TDs to win games(Buf, at Was)

I brand him a QB that can't play under pressure based on his poor play when his teams were still in races and his good play whe teams were out of it.

Moore is an average QB. As I said earlier though, if the defense holds against Denver and the Giants, the Dolphins would at worst be 2-5 (they did win three straight after that). Being 5-5 would've been interesting.

Moore had decent stats vs. Denver (92.6 rtg) and was bad vs. the Giants. Defense makes a play in either game and it's a different story.
 
Moore is an average QB. As I said earlier though, if the defense holds against Denver and the Giants, the Dolphins would at worst be 2-5 (they did win three straight after that). Being 5-5 would've been interesting.

Moore had decent stats vs. Denver (92.6 rtg) and was bad vs. the Giants. Defense makes a play in either game and it's a different story.

if the D doesn't pick off Sanchez 3 times you don't beat the Jets, if Moore makes a play late at dallas you probably win that game
 
It's funny how 2 years ago you were telling me how good Henne was just like you were about Sparano. How quickly things change.

I'm still telling you that Ryan is more lucky than good and so far has proved just about as much as early HC Rich Kotite in Philly; we'll see how that one works out. However I'll give Rex credit for a legitimate good season in '10 and 2 legitimate PO wins but detract credit for not winning the division like Tony did and being clueless when it comes to imploding clubhouses. So Rex is ahead as HC: by 2 PO wins but they both have only 1 legitimate winning season. It's funny how now you're telling us what a genius Sparano is because he had some success before being deposed by Garrett calling Todd Haley's designed plays and using his receivers. :up:

Sanchez has a track record of success in big games, henne did not. How can you not see the difference? I know, b/c you hate the Jets and are a dolphin homer so your judgements get distorted.

so much for that narrative see below


Your team doesn't agree w/ you, while my team gave our QB a contract extension your team drfated a QB in the 1st rd and signed a vet QB so that should tell you all you really need to know about what they think of Matt Moore.
Neither does yours with you: Woody called Peyton and didn't even receive the courtesy of a call back. And then of course there's Tebow who's as bad as Sanchez but at least has the balls to step up when it matters (again see below) So much for that argument.

Sanchez has been under pressure to win since day 1. Rex was talking big from the start, in '09 it was more don't screw it up but he still had to perform in jauary and did so. Matt Moore has never played a meaningful game in this league and has only performed when his teams have been out of the race.

Sorry, but there's more pressure playing for a demoralized team with fans in the stands rooting against you trying to salvage your career than knowing that no matter how many times you crap the bed, you're gonna continue to be coddled like Sanchez has been coddled.. the 2 players who actually played with 3 good QBs to compare agree. There was no accountability, ever. It's obvious that the team knew what a puzzy sensitive little metrosexual is was, saw how he cried, sulked and pouted away from his teammates, and while stuck with him, didn't want to upset his delicate psyche even more. Can you picture Tebow acting out like that? Obviously another reason why the jets acquired him.


Considering the way you evaluate players, coaches, teams I feel great about you breakdown of the QBs. I look forwar to a year or 2 from now when you tell me how much henne sucks and how great the nes guy is just like you'll tell me how bad Philbin was and be pumping up the new coach:lol:

Like I said before, claiming Sanchez is a good QB, let alone one worthy of a first round pick in trade, better than Rivers or Ryan and a top 7 league QB loses you whatever non-homer credibility you have on this board. If you try to pull that crap on other forums like NE's, Buffalo's or Pittsburgh, they'd laugh you out of the house.


I give you "The Clutch Taco" who even when the opponents have pulled their starters and are conceding the game, still manages to crap the bed.

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I firmly believe Tim Tebow will start over a healthy Sanchez at some point this season
 
They were never in the race, those games were meaningless and he played really well.

2010: starts day 1 and is terrible

2011: Miami still has a glimmer of hope, lose first 4 games he plays and are out of the race then he plays well.

Noticing a pattern?

How many games did Car win or Mi win where Moore was the primary reason? sanchez led us back 5-6 times including postseason in 2010, he had a couple of late game comebacks last year too where he threw late TDs to win games(Buf, at Was)

I brand him a QB that can't play under pressure based on his poor play when his teams were still in races and his good play whe teams were out of it.

Again, he can't control being put in as a starter in 2009 when the team was already out of it. He played poorly in 2010 in his first 2 games, but there are many other factors than the "Pressure" argument you love. Moore played poorly against the Jets, but played good enough to win the other early starts, so the "Pressure" argument doesn't fly in 2011 since the losses were not all his fault. 2 out of 3 seasons, Moore has played well. You are basing your "Pressure" argument off of 1 season in which the Panthers won 1 game without Moore.

Again, Sanchez played horrible under "Pressure" last year. You give him a pass for multiple reasons including that he has led the Jets to the playoffs before. Had Moore gotten a little more help from the D, (Like Sanchez had his first 2 years) he also could have led his team to the playoffs. The QB is not the only reason for wins and losses.
 
Like I said before, claiming Sanchez is a good QB, let alone one worthy of a first round pick in trade, better than Rivers or Ryan and a top 7 league QB loses you whatever non-homer credibility you have on this board. If you try to pull that crap on other forums like NE's, Buffalo's or Pittsburgh, they'd laugh you out of the house.


I give you "The Clutch Taco" who even when the opponents have pulled their starters and are conceding the game, still manages to crap the bed.




2009:

vs. NE: down 9-3 at half, helps us beat NE 16-9
at Cin(postseason) 1st postseason start and it's on the road, near flawless, only 3 incompletions 2 of which were drops.
at SD(postseason) converts 3 critical 3rd downs inclduing scrambling TD to give us our first lead

2010:
NE: trail 14-10 at half, leads team to 28-14 win inclduing 3 TD passes
at Mia: Mia pulls w/in 1 in the 4th, leads late TD drive to push lead to 8 as Jets hold on for win
at Den: leads last minute TD drive to win game
at Det: trailiong by 10 w/ 3 mins left leads us to TD and FG to send to OT then sets up GW FG
at Cle: after D blows late lead Mark leads us to GW TD late in OT for win
Hou: after D blows late lead, gets ball at own 28 w/ NO timeouts down by 4. Leads Jets to TD for win
at Ind(postseason): down by 2 w/ under a minute left sets up K for chip shot FG to win it
at NE(post): outplays best QB of this generation in Foxboro

2011:
SD: trailing 14-3 in 1st, 21-10 at half, leads Jets to 27-21 win
Buf: throws 4 TDs including GW in final minute
at Was: after Was takes a 16-13 lead w/ 7 mins left leads TD drive for GW TD
 
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