Schein thinks the Bills will be this year's Cinderella

[The New Guy]

They had their chance to control their destiny and make the playoffs by beating GB. They got crushed, he threw 4 INTs. The likelihood that GB was going to lose the next game was pretty small especially w/ Chi having things wrapped up already. In the biggest game of the year he threw 4 INTs.

So did the Jets against Atl. How did Mark play in that game? He not only blew that game, he blew several others and only by the grace of the Colts did they make the playoffs. It is ridiculous to give Mark credit for that while trying to discredit Eli for not leading his team to the playoffs. Both teams needed help, and one team got it and the other team didn't. When a team needs help to get in, they are the same boat to me regardless if they end up getting the help or not.

those fumble #s seem pretty similar, he may average 11 but this was the first season he had 11.

Mark last 4 years: 10, 9, 10, 14

Eli last 4 years: 13, 7, 9, 5

Anyway you look at it, Eli doesn't fumble as much as Sanchez. Plus he's never had a buttfumble.

Comparing Mark to Tebow is silly and again those WEREN'T COMEBACKS. I can't go crazy over being tied or trailing by 1-2 entering the 4th.

I'm just giving you an example of why you shouldn't judge a QB solely based on a win. One QB could do very little and be kept in a game, and have 1 drive that wins it, and the other QB could have been the main reason the team was even in the game, and also have the 1 drive that wins it. They are not equal.

Eli's role in comeback wins 2,478 yards 15 TDS and 2 Ints

Mark's role in comeback wins 1,507 ayrds 7 TDs and 6 Ints

Both guys got wins, but 1 guy has 1 more TD than picks, and the other guy has 13 more TDs than picks. It is easy to tell which QB played a bigger role in winning those games.

You want context show all the weapons Eli had compared to what mark had, even at his peak in 2010(though Holmes missed 4 games and cotch missed a few games) Eli had vastly superior weapons.

And Eli has been asked to do more than Mark ever has been asked to do. Even if Mark had the same guys Eli had, he is not turning into Eli.

We penalize the QB for RBs rushing the ball? 2007 title game, gets INT at GB 34, 2 runs for 5 yds they kick FG. It was all Eli, right? 2011 title game, gets FR at SF 24, 3 rushes for 18 yds sets up chip shot FG but it was all Eli!

I don't penalize them, I just don't give them much credit for the drive. The problem is you do give credit to Mark on those type of drives, and then turn around and bash Eli.

31 yds in the air? the LOS was at the 34, Nicks caught it at midfield. It was a 16 yd pass.

How did they get to the 34? Eli completed a 15 yard pass on 3rd and 11 that made the next play possible. Eli was responsible for 31 yards without the receivers ever touching the ball. Mark was responsible for 5 yards on his TD drive, but we don't hear about that from you. We just hear that Eli threw a 5 yard pass that the receiver took the rest of the way. Not quite.

he didn't contribute more, they contributed about the same. the reason one won and one lost was b/c of D/STs.

Mark 665 yards 5 TDs and 2 INTs in 4 wins.
Eli 2,073 yards 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his 8 wins

Sanchez in wins 2009-2012: 45 TDs, 17 INTs

Eli win wins 2004-2007: 45 TDs, 27 INTs

very interesting.

Why are you are looking at stats in regular season wins for Eli from 2004 - 2007? In 2004 Eli only started 7 games and only won 1? How many of those 9 wins in 2009 was Mark the main reason they won? Mark has 4 more regular season wins which means you get to include stats from 4 games that Eli does not. You also left out all the stats from playoff wins which is where Eli has really separated himself.

Are you the same guy that doesn't like to use fantasy stats?

That doesn't tell us anything b/c there are Hail Marys and short passes turned into 66 yd TDs in there plus balls sticking to helmets.

And it doesn't tell us how many games the QB played great in and lost, or how many games were lost because of the QB, or how many wins were because of the running game and D keeping the QB in games.

Plus:

Eli had 282 attempts in those 8 wins. 25 per game
Mark had 94 in 4 wins. , 24 per game

Eli was 178-282, 2073, 15 TDs, 2 INTs

prorate mark's #s over 282 attempts:

174-282, 1995 yds, 15 TDs, 6 INTs

First, 282 attempts over 8 games is an average of 35 per game, not 25. Eli was asked to do more than Mark which is why he attempted 11 more passes per game.
It is not fair to prorate Mark's numbers because he has never attempted 35 passes in a single playoff game. It is a completely different role. We have seen what happens when Mark has been asked to do more.

By the way, below are the points the QBs led their teams to in regulation in postseason:

Mark: 20 PPG
Eli: 18.9 PPG

TOs forced by team:

NYJ: 8 in 6 games, 1.3 per game
NYG: 16 in 11 games, 1.5 per game

gets more TOs, leads team to less points.

Interesting.

Your averages were way off, so I can't trust those numbers. When I have the time, I'll go over them.

Seriously, you don't really believe that Mark is as good a QB as Eli, so what are you really trying to debate?

 

[Vaark]

 

[nyjunc]

So did the Jets against Atl. How did Mark play in that game? He not only blew that game, he blew several others and only by the grace of the Colts did they make the playoffs. It is ridiculous to give Mark credit for that while trying to discredit Eli for not leading his team to the playoffs. Both teams needed help, and one team got it and the other team didn't. When a team needs help to get in, they are the same boat to me regardless if they end up getting the help or not.




Mark last 4 years: 10, 9, 10, 14

Eli last 4 years: 13, 7, 9, 5

Anyway you look at it, Eli doesn't fumble as much as Sanchez. Plus he's never had a buttfumble.




I'm just giving you an example of why you shouldn't judge a QB solely based on a win. One QB could do very little and be kept in a game, and have 1 drive that wins it, and the other QB could have been the main reason the team was even in the game, and also have the 1 drive that wins it. They are not equal.

Eli's role in comeback wins 2,478 yards 15 TDS and 2 Ints

Mark's role in comeback wins 1,507 ayrds 7 TDs and 6 Ints

Both guys got wins, but 1 guy has 1 more TD than picks, and the other guy has 13 more TDs than picks. It is easy to tell which QB played a bigger role in winning those games.



And Eli has been asked to do more than Mark ever has been asked to do. Even if Mark had the same guys Eli had, he is not turning into Eli.



I don't penalize them, I just don't give them much credit for the drive. The problem is you do give credit to Mark on those type of drives, and then turn around and bash Eli.



How did they get to the 34? Eli completed a 15 yard pass on 3rd and 11 that made the next play possible. Eli was responsible for 31 yards without the receivers ever touching the ball. Mark was responsible for 5 yards on his TD drive, but we don't hear about that from you. We just hear that Eli threw a 5 yard pass that the receiver took the rest of the way. Not quite.



Mark 665 yards 5 TDs and 2 INTs in 4 wins.
Eli 2,073 yards 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his 8 wins




Why are you are looking at stats in regular season wins for Eli from 2004 - 2007? In 2004 Eli only started 7 games and only won 1? How many of those 9 wins in 2009 was Mark the main reason they won? Mark has 4 more regular season wins which means you get to include stats from 4 games that Eli does not. You also left out all the stats from playoff wins which is where Eli has really separated himself.

Are you the same guy that doesn't like to use fantasy stats?




And it doesn't tell us how many games the QB played great in and lost, or how many games were lost because of the QB, or how many wins were because of the running game and D keeping the QB in games.




First, 282 attempts over 8 games is an average of 35 per game, not 25. Eli was asked to do more than Mark which is why he attempted 11 more passes per game.
It is not fair to prorate Mark's numbers because he has never attempted 35 passes in a single playoff game. It is a completely different role. We have seen what happens when Mark has been asked to do more.



Your averages were way off, so I can't trust those numbers. When I have the time, I'll go over them.

Seriously, you don't really believe that Mark is as good a QB as Eli, so what are you really trying to debate?

He didn't play well but he was a rookie not a 7th year starter and he gave his defense a late lead which they blew. Did Eli give his a D a late lead at GB?

He didn't blow the Atl game, the D blew it, he didn't help us win but he didn't blow it. he blew the NO and Buf games.

I am not discrediting, I am stating facts. We got a break w/ Indy, Eli got a break w/ a weak NFC in 2007, he got a break w/ a weak division in 2011. Good teams take advantage of those breaks.

Mark's last 4 years are his first 4, Eli's last 4 years are years 6-9.

He doesn't fumble as much, that's quite an accomplishment he only fumbles almost as much.

I don't judge based solely on wins, I rate winning pretty high b/c that's the goal but if a QB is leading his team to 30 PPG and not winning that's one thing but in most cases wins and losses come down to the execution of the QB so I weigh it heavily. I also use individual stats and all that but winning and scoring pts are most important for me when judging QBs.

AGAIN, those were not comebacks.

Eli has more to work with, if mark had those weapons he could do a lot more too.

a 15 yd pass on 3rd and 11 where he had 7 seconds to throw the ball waiting and waiting and waiting for a receiver to get open. what a great job by Eli!


You told me stats only count in wins so I posted those #s from wins.


I meant 35.

mark managed the games better, he didn't need to throw 40-58 times like Eli plus Eli played 2 OT games where he had an extra qtr.

mark has attempted 35 passes in a playoff game where he completed 61% of his passes, had 2 TDs, 0 INTs and a rating over 100 so it's fair to assume he can throw for 35 a game if need be. He didn't need to.

How are my averages off? We can't count OT since he got a extra qtr(even counting OT it's less per game), Eli has been SHUT OUT and led his team to 9 pts, the lowest amount Mar led his O
s to was 17 pts.

Eli led O's:
0 pts against Carolina
20 pts at Philly
24 at TB
21 at Dal
20 at GB(regulation)
17 vs. NE
9 vs. Philly(D recorded a safety)
24 vs. Atl
37 at GB
17 at SF(regulation)
19 vs. NE(D recorded a safety)
209 total pts in 11 games. 18.9 PPG


Obviously mark isn't as good as Eli is now but he was better in 2010 and w/ more weapons he can be as good or better than him again in the future. will it happen? not likely but it could.

 

[The New Guy]

He didn't blow the Atl game, the D blew it, he didn't help us win but he didn't blow it. he blew the NO and Buf games.

:lol2: The Jets O had 33 plays on the Falcons side of the field and scored 0 points. Mark threw 3 picks and led his O to 7 points the entire game. But it was the D's fault. Classic! Stupid Jets D, they didn't hold the Falcons to a FG for the entire game. Mark led the O to 7 points all game, had (4) 3 and out drives and had 3 picks including a pick on his last drive when the team was only down 3. But it wasn't his fault, it was the D's. Unbelievable

AGAIN, those were not comebacks.

I don't care what you want to call them. Eli led game winning drives and Mark led game winning drives. That doesn't make them equal. Their stats show how each QB contributed to their team's wins.

Eli's role 2,478 yards 15 TDS and 2 Ints

Mark's role 1,507 ayrds 7 TDs and 6 Ints

Eli has more to work with, if mark had those weapons he could do a lot more too.

You think Mark could do more with more weapons, but he has shown nothing that backs that up.

a 15 yd pass on 3rd and 11 where he had 7 seconds to throw the ball waiting and waiting and waiting for a receiver to get open. what a great job by Eli!

Here you go again making excuses when Eli makes big plays. :rolleyes2: Eli completes a 15 yard pass on 3rd and 11, and then a 16 yard pass that Nicks takes for a TD, and you make little of it, while in the same breath uplift Sanchez for throwing a 5 yard pass on an entire drive. If you are going to try and discredit one QB, at least be consistent and do the same for Mark.

You told me stats only count in wins so I posted those #s from wins.

It is playoff wins remember? No one cares about those meaningless regular season fantasy stats right?

Playoff wins:
Mark 665 yards 5 TDs and 2 INTs in 4 wins.
Eli 2,073 yards 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his 8 wins.

That is all that needs to be said.

mark has attempted 35 passes in a playoff game where he completed 61% of his passes, had 2 TDs, 0 INTs and a rating over 100 so it's fair to assume he can throw for 35 a game if need be. He didn't need to.

That is not true. Mark has never attempted 35 passes in a single playoff game. I assume you are talking about the Pitt game where he threw 33 passes. He was 6 of 13 for 56 yards when the Steelers were actually playing defense in the first half. When the score was 24-3 he was able to bring the stats up, but I thought that was called garbage time?

We have seen what happens when the Jets have asked Mark to do more.

How are my averages off? We can't count OT since he got a extra qtr(even counting OT it's less per game), Eli has been SHUT OUT and led his team to 9 pts, the lowest amount Mar led his O
s to was 17 pts.

Eli led O's:
0 pts against Carolina
20 pts at Philly
24 at TB
21 at Dal
20 at GB(regulation)
17 vs. NE
9 vs. Philly(D recorded a safety)
24 vs. Atl
37 at GB
17 at SF(regulation)
19 vs. NE(D recorded a safety)
209 total pts in 11 games. 18.9 PPG


Obviously mark isn't as good as Eli is now but he was better in 2010 and w/ more weapons he can be as good or better than him again in the future. will it happen? not likely but it could.

I didn't say that the scoring average was off. I said that since you were off on Eli's attempts average, that I couldn't trust your numbers.

You can't compare a scoring average of a team's O and give all the credit to the QB. You can't compare a scoring average over 11 games to a scoring average over 6 games. What we can look at that will tell us the role the QB played in the playoff wins is their stats.

Mark 665 yards 5 TDs and 2 INTs in 4 wins.
Eli 2,073 yards 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his 8 wins

There is a better chance that Chad Henne becomes a solid starter than there is of Mark becoming as good as Eli.

When both QBs are done, Eli will be remembered as a 2 time Super Bowl MVP who was clutch in the biggest games. Mark will probably be remembered for his buttfumble.

 

[nyjunc]

:lol2: The Jets O had 33 plays on the Falcons side of the field and scored 0 points. Mark threw 3 picks and led his O to 7 points the entire game. But it was the D's fault. Classic! Stupid Jets D, they didn't hold the Falcons to a FG for the entire game. Mark led the O to 7 points all game, had (4) 3 and out drives and had 3 picks including a pick on his last drive when the team was only down 3. But it wasn't his fault, it was the D's. Unbelievable




I don't care what you want to call them. Eli led game winning drives and Mark led game winning drives. That doesn't make them equal. Their stats show how each QB contributed to their team's wins.

Eli's role 2,478 yards 15 TDS and 2 Ints

Mark's role 1,507 ayrds 7 TDs and 6 Ints




You think Mark could do more with more weapons, but he has shown nothing that backs that up.




Here you go again making excuses when Eli makes big plays. :rolleyes2: Eli completes a 15 yard pass on 3rd and 11, and then a 16 yard pass that Nicks takes for a TD, and you make little of it, while in the same breath uplift Sanchez for throwing a 5 yard pass on an entire drive. If you are going to try and discredit one QB, at least be consistent and do the same for Mark.



It is playoff wins remember? No one cares about those meaningless regular season fantasy stats right?

Playoff wins:
Mark 665 yards 5 TDs and 2 INTs in 4 wins.
Eli 2,073 yards 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his 8 wins.

That is all that needs to be said.



That is not true. Mark has never attempted 35 passes in a single playoff game. I assume you are talking about the Pitt game where he threw 33 passes. He was 6 of 13 for 56 yards when the Steelers were actually playing defense in the first half. When the score was 24-3 he was able to bring the stats up, but I thought that was called garbage time?

We have seen what happens when the Jets have asked Mark to do more.



I didn't say that the scoring average was off. I said that since you were off on Eli's attempts average, that I couldn't trust your numbers.

You can't compare a scoring average of a team's O and give all the credit to the QB. You can't compare a scoring average over 11 games to a scoring average over 6 games. What we can look at that will tell us the role the QB played in the playoff wins is their stats.

Mark 665 yards 5 TDs and 2 INTs in 4 wins.
Eli 2,073 yards 15 TDs and 2 INTs in his 8 wins

There is a better chance that Chad Henne becomes a solid starter than there is of Mark becoming as good as Eli.

When both QBs are done, Eli will be remembered as a 2 time Super Bowl MVP who was clutch in the biggest games. Mark will probably be remembered for his buttfumble.

He played a role, it was a very cold and windy day. did you notice Matt Ryan couldn't do anything all day either? we had a 4 pt lead late, the D shut down Atl all day but w/ the game on the line w/ 4 mins left they allowed Atl to go 73 yds for the TD. The D blew it, it wasn't all their fault but they blew the game.

When Mark has had quality weapons he's been in the title game each year.

but they both led a ton of GW drives those 2 seasons? who cares about the #s, it's about getting the Ws.

excuses? watch the clip at nfl.com. He had an eternity, you are trying to credit him for a great play as if Eli made the play w/ no help.

prorate Mark's #s to the same # of attempts and the #s are almost identical which means mark was just as efficient as Eli despite less talent and a D that didn't step up in title games.

I meant almost attempted 35 passes, 33 is pretty close.

Oh the D wasn't playing in the 2nd half? he barely had the ball in the first half b/c the D allowed Pitt to control the clock.

when they asked him to bring the team back he got us back w/in a score then the D failed AGAIN. if he had the NYG D he'd have SBs.

who is giving all the credit to the QB? just stating a fact that Mark's Os have scored more and the difference btw the 2 gas been the Ds and STs.

you can keep posting those out of context #s that don't help your argument all you want, prorate Mark's #s to the same # of attempts and the #s are almost identical.

That's more b/c of the situations they were placed into, switch the QBs and teams and the results are the same.

 

[MD]

A thread on the Bills has been hijacked and turned in to a debate about a horrible QB. Give it up guys. Junc has been spewing on and on to a tune of 320 pages in one thread about Sanchez at TGG. He won't give up until you stop.

 

[The New Guy]

He played a role, it was a very cold and windy day. did you notice Matt Ryan couldn't do anything all day either? we had a 4 pt lead late, the D shut down Atl all day but w/ the game on the line w/ 4 mins left they allowed Atl to go 73 yds for the TD. The D blew it, it wasn't all their fault but they blew the game.

Matt Ryan was facing the Jets #1 ranked passing D. Mark Sanchez was facing the #28 ranked Falcons passing D. If any other QB led his team to 7 points (In the first quarter) and did nothing else all game except throw 3 picks including one with the game on the line, you would be blaming the QB. But because it is Mark, you blame the D for allowing 10 points!

When Mark has had quality weapons he's been in the title game each year.

When Mark has had a top ranked D and a top ranked rushing O, he has been in the title game.

but they both led a ton of GW drives those 2 seasons? who cares about the #s, it's about getting the Ws.

If I'm comparing QBs, I care. Tebow got a win against KC by only completing 2 passes. I'm not going to give him the same amount of credit I'll give another QB who played a much larger role in a win.

prorate Mark's #s to the same # of attempts and the #s are almost identical which means mark was just as efficient as Eli despite less talent and a D that didn't step up in title games.

You can't take a QB who is in a game manager type role and prorate his numbers. Just because Mark was 12 of 15 in his first playoff game, didn't mean he was going to go 36 of 45 over 3 games. The very next game agasint the Chargers he completed 12 of 23. In Mark's 4 playoff wins, he attempted 94 passes. In Eli's last 4 playoff wins, he attempted 163 passes. That tells you which QB was relied upon more. Eli attempted 69 more passes and still averaged over a yard more per completion.

Oh the D wasn't playing in the 2nd half? he barely had the ball in the first half b/c the D allowed Pitt to control the clock.

He had it long enough to attempt 13 passes. He only completed 6 of them for 56 yards. He could have had the ball longer if he didn't go 3 and out in 50% of his drives in the first half. No, I don't think Pitt was playing the same D in the second half up 21 points.

who is giving all the credit to the QB? just stating a fact that Mark's Os have scored more and the difference btw the 2 gas been the Ds and STs.

you can keep posting those out of context #s that don't help your argument all you want, prorate Mark's #s to the same # of attempts and the #s are almost identical.

You are giving all the credit to the QB when you compare Mark's wins to Eli's. The QBs played completely different roles. One was a much bigger part of his team's scores and wins, but you act like since both guys won games, they are the same QB. Let's take a look at the role each QB played in their team's scoring drives in their playoff wins. In the Jets first two playoff wins, the Jets had 7 scoring drives.

Mark contributed:

147 yards, 1 TD, and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Bengals.
13 yards, 1 TD and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Chargers.

So in the Jets 7 scoring drives Mark contributed 160 yards 2 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversions.

In the Jets next 2 playoff wins, the Jets had 7 scoring drives again.

Sanchez contributed:

78 yards and had (3) 3rd down conversions against the Colts.

143 yards, 3TDs and had (3) 3rd down conversion against NE.

So in the Jets 7 scoring drives Mark contributed 221 yards, 3TDs and had (6) 3rd down conversions.

That brings his total contribution to the Jets 14 scoring drives to 381 yards 5 TDs, and (10) 3rd down conversions.

Now let's look at Eli's role. The Giants had 15 scoring drives in their 4 playoff wins in 2007.

Eli contributed:

187 yards, 2 TDs and had (6) 3rd conversions against NE.
127 yards and (1) 3rd down conversion against GB.
125 yards 2 TDs and (3) 3rd down conversion against Dal.
160 yards 2 TDS, and (5) 3rd down conversion against TB
--------
That brings Eli's total contribution to the Giants 15 scoring drives to 599 yards, 6TDs, and (15) 3rd down conversions.

So, both guys had 4 playoff wins, and there teams had nearly the same amount of scoring drives but Mark contributed 218 less yards, 1 less TD, and had 5 less 3rd down conversion that kept those scoring drives alive.

Let's look at Eli's role in scoring drives on his second Super Bowl run:

190 yards, 3 TDs and (6) 3rd down conversion agasint ATL.
255 yards, 3TDs and (5) 3rd down conversions agasint GB.
149 yards, 2 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversions against SF.
169 yards, 1TD and (1) 3rd down conversion against NE.

Total contribution in the Giants 19 scoring drives is 763 yards, 9 TDs and (16) 3rd down conversions.

Again, both guys had 4 playoff wins and Mark contributed 382 less yards, 4 less TDS, and had 6 less 3rd down conversions.

Let's look at the QBs total contribution to their team's scoring drives in both teams playoff runs:

Eli, 2007, 2011
1,362 yards, 15 TDs and (31) 3rd down conversion that kept scoring drives alive.

Mark, 2009, 2010
381 yards 5 TDs, and (10) 3rd down conversions.

To sum that all up, two QBs both with 2 playoff apps, Mark contributed 981 less yards, 12 less TDs and 21 less 3rd down conversions that kept those scoring drives alive. I guess you are right, they did play a similar role in their team's wins.

A thread on the Bills has been hijacked and turned in to a debate about a horrible QB. Give it up guys. Junc has been spewing on and on to a tune of 320 pages in one thread about Sanchez at TGG. He won't give up until you stop.

Sorry! I know I'm a huge reason this keeps going on. I can't help it. Even thought I enjoy it, I'm aware that it may bother others, so I'll stop for now. :up:

 

[nyjunc]

Matt Ryan was facing the Jets #1 ranked passing D. Mark Sanchez was facing the #28 ranked Falcons passing D. If any other QB led his team to 7 points (In the first quarter) and did nothing else all game except throw 3 picks including one with the game on the line, you would be blaming the QB. But because it is Mark, you blame the D for allowing 10 points!



When Mark has had a top ranked D and a top ranked rushing O, he has been in the title game.



If I'm comparing QBs, I care. Tebow got a win against KC by only completing 2 passes. I'm not going to give him the same amount of credit I'll give another QB who played a much larger role in a win.



You can't take a QB who is in a game manager type role and prorate his numbers. Just because Mark was 12 of 15 in his first playoff game, didn't mean he was going to go 36 of 45 over 3 games. The very next game agasint the Chargers he completed 12 of 23. In Mark's 4 playoff wins, he attempted 94 passes. In Eli's last 4 playoff wins, he attempted 163 passes. That tells you which QB was relied upon more. Eli attempted 69 more passes and still averaged over a yard more per completion.




He had it long enough to attempt 13 passes. He only completed 6 of them for 56 yards. He could have had the ball longer if he didn't go 3 and out in 50% of his drives in the first half. No, I don't think Pitt was playing the same D in the second half up 21 points.



You are giving all the credit to the QB when you compare Mark's wins to Eli's. The QBs played completely different roles. One was a much bigger part of his team's scores and wins, but you act like since both guys won games, they are the same QB. Let's take a look at the role each QB played in their team's scoring drives in their playoff wins. In the Jets first two playoff wins, the Jets had 7 scoring drives.

Mark contributed:

147 yards, 1 TD, and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Bengals.
13 yards, 1 TD and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Chargers.

So in the Jets 7 scoring drives Mark contributed 160 yards 2 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversions.

In the Jets next 2 playoff wins, the Jets had 7 scoring drives again.

Sanchez contributed:

78 yards and had (2) 3rd down conversions against the Colts.

143 yards, 3TDs and had (3) 3rd down conversion against NE.

So in the Jets 7 scoring drives Mark contributed 221 yards, 3TDs and had (5) 3rd down conversions.

That brings his total contribution to the Jets 14 scoring drives to 381 yards 5 TDs, and (9) 3rd down conversions.

Now let's look at Eli's role. The Giants had 15 scoring drives in their 4 playoff wins in 2007.

Eli contributed:

187 yards, 2 TDs and had (7) 3rd conversions against NE.
127 yards and (1) 3rd down conversion against GB.
125 yards 2 TDs and (3) 3rd down conversion against Dal.
160 yards 2 TDS, and (3) 3rd down conversion against TB
--------
That brings Eli's total contribution to the Giants 15 scoring drives to 599 yards, 6TDs, and (14) 3rd down conversions.

So, both guys had 4 playoff wins, and there teams had nearly the same amount of scoring drives but Mark contributed 218 less yards, 1 less TD, and had 5 less 3rd down conversion that kept those scoring drives alive.

Let's look at Eli's role in scoring drives on his second Super Bowl run:

190 yards, 3 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversion agasint ATL.
255 yards, 3TDs and (6) 3rd down conversions agasint GB.
149 yards, 2 TDs and (4) 3rd down conversions against SF.
169 yards, 1TD and (2) 3rd down conversion against NE.

Total contribution in the Giants 19 scoring drives is 763 yards, 9 TDs and (16) 3rd down conversions.

Again, both guys had 4 playoff wins and Mark contributed 382 less yards, 4 less TDS, and had 7 less 3rd down conversions.

Let's look at the QBs total contribution to their team's scoring drives in both teams playoff runs:

Eli, 2007, 2011
1,362 yards, 15 TDs and (30) 3rd down conversion that kept scoring drives alive.

Mark, 2009, 2010
381 yards 5 TDs, and (9) 3rd down conversions.

To sum that all up, two QBs both with 2 playoff apps, Mark contributed 981 less yards, 12 less TDs and 21 less 3rd down conversions that kept those scoring drives alive. I guess you are right, they did play a similar role in their team's wins.




Sorry! I know I'm a huge reason this keeps going on. I can't help it. Even thought I enjoy it, I'm aware that it may bother others, so I'll stop for now. :up:

So what? Matt Ryan also had much better talent around him on offense. at that point in the season Jones was wearing down. Greene & Jones averaged 3 YPC that day, the Atl RBs averaged almost 5 YPC.

Again, mark and the O get their share of blame but the defense blew it. It was a cold, windy day. Not a good day for offenses and they allowed Atl to go the distance on their last drive after shutting them down all day.

didn't have a top ranked D or run game in 2010 and made the title game.

Tebow had a ton of comebacks where his D held opponents to under 10 and he needed one drive, where did this happen for Mark? In the comeback/GW drives from 2010 the Jets scored 24, 23, 26, 30, 22 and 17 pts.

mark could win games w/ his arm, he did it quite often in 2010. Eli was a game manager too in 2007, he wasn't in 2011 but regardless of that they won w/ D. You have to be fait and not compare apples to oranges here, you need to prorate the #s to get a fair look and when prorated the #s are quite similar.

You are fibbing again or at least not being fair.

The D set the tone by allowing a 9 min TD drive to start the game, the O tried to give them rest by holding it 4 mins but it didn't help the D who got pushed around all 1st half. It's hard to get into a rhythm as an O when that is happening.

I am giving proper credit, both QBs played very well but both won primarily b/c of their Ds/STs. They both needed to play well to win and did.

you should check your #s, they had 2 3rd down conversions in the 1st half.

By the way, he had 2 or 3 HUGE 3rd down conversions including the one where he bought time and made an incredible play to score the 1st TD

again, at Cincy he was near flawless. I'm not sure what dragging out 3rd down conversions is telling us when the team won comfortably by double digits?

it's amazing the lmngths you will go to as each point gets swatted away. what's next? who had the most play action passes? the #s don't matter, the results matter. Eli doesn't get to a SB w/o the D setting up the GW FG in GB and w/o STs setting up their last 10 pts in SF.

I will have to look up your #s since the beginning was already off, I don't have time right now to counter this asinine point but I will.

 

[Nublar7]

Hey Junc, I have to ask you something. I went over to Gang Green this afternoon to see what is going on and that place is pretty much dead. There are threads on the first page from over a week ago and hardly any movement today. Is that how it always is, or has the poor state of the Jets turned people off? Or did they migrate to another Jets fan site that I don't know of? I would have figured that two weeks before the draft that place would be buzzing.

I hardly ever go there and very rarely ever post. I got banned for a couple of months because I posted in a thread in July about how the Dolphins were going to cut Anthony Fasano because he no longer fit the offense. Jets fans were drooling over the possibility of picking him up because he was a Jersey guy. I went in and said that Fasano was not getting cut and that the Jets should look elsewhere for tight end help. They took that personally and I got a two month ban. Whatever.

I returned in October and posted this in a thread titled "Jets Lose to Dolphins (rant here)"

The Jets at this point would be better to ride with Sanchez the rest of the season to make sure they get a higher first round draft pick. Jets season is pretty much over at this point, better to get in position to possibly draft a true franchise quarterback. Sanchez gives the team the best chance to lose each week.

It was smack talk, and it got me banned through New Years. Just keep in mind how good you have it here Junc.

 

[nyjunc]

Hey Junc, I have to ask you something. I went over to Gang Green this afternoon to see what is going on and that place is pretty much dead. There are threads on the first page from over a week ago and hardly any movement today. Is that how it always is, or has the poor state of the Jets turned people off? Or did they migrate to another Jets fan site that I don't know of? I would have figured that two weeks before the draft that place would be buzzing.

I hardly ever go there and very rarely ever post. I got banned for a couple of months because I posted in a thread in July about how the Dolphins were going to cut Anthony Fasano because he no longer fit the offense. Jets fans were drooling over the possibility of picking him up because he was a Jersey guy. I went in and said that Fasano was not getting cut and that the Jets should look elsewhere for tight end help. They took that personally and I got a two month ban. Whatever.

I returned in October and posted this in a thread titled "Jets Lose to Dolphins (rant here)"



It was smack talk, and it got me banned through New Years. Just keep in mind how good you have it here Junc.

It quiets down a bit in the offseason, actually the worse the team is we usually get more activity w/ people whining about the team. I expect it will be very busy in the fall.

smack talk on the main board doesn't work, I think we have a smack talk board. Imagine if I did that here on the main board?

In retrospect it was pretty funny but at the time when everyone is heated up after a loss it's not a good thing.

 

[AquaInferno]

A thread on the Bills has been hijacked and turned in to a debate about a horrible QB. Give it up guys. Junc has been spewing on and on to a tune of 320 pages in one thread about Sanchez at TGG. He won't give up until you stop.

This thing was shot at page 2 and to Junc's defense all he did was show up and say Carson isn't the same blah blah and a couple people wanted to go into Sanchez. His fans/enablers are as big a part of the gimmick as he is.

 

[The New Guy]

We discuss a lot of different points, so it would be helpful to me if you would quote specific points and then respond. I can piece together most of it, but there are times I have no idea what you are referring to.

didn't have a top ranked D or run game in 2010 and made the title game.

#4 ranked rushing O and #3 in total D. Spin it how you like, but that is a top ranked D and running game.

Tebow had a ton of comebacks where his D held opponents to under 10 and he needed one drive, where did this happen for Mark? In the comeback/GW drives from 2010 the Jets scored 24, 23, 26, 30, 22 and 17 pts.

Why are you stuck on comeback wins? The point is the QB not playing a big role in a wins. How about the Atl game in 09? D help opponent to 10 points, Mark just needed 1 drive and threw a pick, yet it was the D's fault.

mark could win games w/ his arm, he did it quite often in 2010. Eli was a game manager too in 2007, he wasn't in 2011 but regardless of that they won w/ D. You have to be fait and not compare apples to oranges here, you need to prorate the #s to get a fair look and when prorated the #s are quite similar.

Prorating a QBs numbers who attempted 188 less passes is ridiculous. Just because he was efficient attempting 15 passes in a game, does not mean he will still be efficient when his pass attempts increase.

You are fibbing again or at least not being fair.

I'm not sure what your are referring to. Being accused of not being fair is funny coming from a guy who makes little of Eli's TD passes while uplifting Mark's or blaming the D when Mark losses and then blaming the QB when it is someone other than Mark.

The D set the tone by allowing a 9 min TD drive to start the game, the O tried to give them rest by holding it 4 mins but it didn't help the D who got pushed around all 1st half. It's hard to get into a rhythm as an O when that is happening.

They had 4 drives. 2 were 3 and outs, and he fumbled on the 3rd. That had little to do with the Jets D.

I am giving proper credit, both QBs played very well but both won primarily b/c of their Ds/STs. They both needed to play well to win and did.

You view Mark and Eli as equals, so you are obviously not giving each QB proper credit for their roles.

you should check your #s, they had 2 3rd down conversions in the 1st half.

Of what game? I'm not talking about 3rd down conversions throughout an entire game. I talking about 3rd down conversion on scoring drives. I'm also not including any conversion when the QB handed the ball off to a RB. I'm talking about 3rd down conversions that the QB actually played a role in. I know you like to give Mark credit for things like handing the ball to the RB, but I don't.

again, at Cincy he was near flawless. I'm not sure what dragging out 3rd down conversions is telling us when the team won comfortably by double digits?

It is 3rd down conversion on scoring drives that the QB is responsible for. It shows the role the QB played in leading his team to points.

it's amazing the lmngths you will go to as each point gets swatted away. what's next? who had the most play action passes? the #s don't matter, the results matter. Eli doesn't get to a SB w/o the D setting up the GW FG in GB and w/o STs setting up their last 10 pts in SF.

Which points have you swatted away? You are trying to compare QBs and are saying the numbers don't matter. Again, Tebow won a game completing 2 passes. That doesn't make him as good as another QB who won a game who played a much larger role in the win. Numbers do matter. Even if you ignore the numbers, you still lose your argument based on results. Eli is a 2 time Super Bowl champ. Mark is a 2 time AFCC game loser.

I will have to look up your #s since the beginning was already off, I don't have time right now to counter this asinine point but I will.

Back to this again huh? How many times have your numbers been off in the last couple of days? I'll go back and check them for you later tonight. If I happen to be wrong, I'll be like you and say that it was what I meant to say, or that my numbers were close.:up:

Ok, I went through NFL.com and went over the 3rd down conversions for each QB on their scoring drives. I had the amounts in each games messed up, but the total in the end was the same since I missed 1 for Mark and 1 for Eli. I edited the original post and fixed it for you. It doesn't help Mark out though. The end result is the same:

Eli, 2007, 2011
1,362 yards, 15 TDs and (31) 3rd down conversion that kept scoring drives alive.

Mark, 2009, 2010
381 yards 5 TDs, and (10) 3rd down conversions.

Mark contributed 981 less yards, 12 less TDs and 21 less 3rd down conversions that kept those scoring drives alive

 

[MD]

This thing was shot at page 2 and to Junc's defense all he did was show up and say Carson isn't the same blah blah and a couple people wanted to go into Sanchez. His fans/enablers are as big a part of the gimmick as he is.

I agree it's not all on Junc. He is more persistent then anyone I know and people feed him. It just gets old rehashing the same stuff.

 

[Bumpus]

Generally, I avoid these pointless discussions like the Plague ...

But, I truly hope Junc gets what he clearly wants - Sanchez as Jets starting QB for the next decade. :up:

 

[nyjunc]

We discuss a lot of different points, so it would be helpful to me if you would quote specific points and then respond. I can piece together most of it, but there are times I have no idea what you are referring to.



#4 ranked rushing O and #3 in total D. Spin it how you like, but that is a top ranked D and running game.



Why are you stuck on comeback wins? The point is the QB not playing a big role in a wins. How about the Atl game in 09? D help opponent to 10 points, Mark just needed 1 drive and threw a pick, yet it was the D's fault.



Prorating a QBs numbers who attempted 188 less passes is ridiculous. Just because he was efficient attempting 15 passes in a game, does not mean he will still be efficient when his pass attempts increase.



I'm not sure what your are referring to. Being accused of not being fair is funny coming from a guy who makes little of Eli's TD passes while uplifting Mark's or blaming the D when Mark losses and then blaming the QB when it is someone other than Mark.



They had 4 drives. 2 were 3 and outs, and he fumbled on the 3rd. That had little to do with the Jets D.



You view Mark and Eli as equals, so you are obviously not giving each QB proper credit for their roles.



Of what game? I'm not talking about 3rd down conversions throughout an entire game. I talking about 3rd down conversion on scoring drives. I'm also not including any conversion when the QB handed the ball off to a RB. I'm talking about 3rd down conversions that the QB actually played a role in. I know you like to give Mark credit for things like handing the ball to the RB, but I don't.



It is 3rd down conversion on scoring drives that the QB is responsible for. It shows the role the QB played in leading his team to points.



Which points have you swatted away? You are trying to compare QBs and are saying the numbers don't matter. Again, Tebow won a game completing 2 passes. That doesn't make him as good as another QB who won a game who played a much larger role in the win. Numbers do matter. Even if you ignore the numbers, you still lose your argument based on results. Eli is a 2 time Super Bowl champ. Mark is a 2 time AFCC game loser.



Back to this again huh? How many times have your numbers been off in the last couple of days? I'll go back and check them for you later tonight. If I happen to be wrong, I'll be like you and say that it was what I meant to say, or that my numbers were close.:up:

Ok, I went through NFL.com and went over the 3rd down conversions for each QB on their scoring drives. I had the amounts in each games messed up, but the total in the end was the same since I missed 1 for Mark and 1 for Eli. I edited the original post and fixed it for you. It doesn't help Mark out though. The end result is the same:

Eli, 2007, 2011
1,362 yards, 15 TDs and (31) 3rd down conversion that kept scoring drives alive.

Mark, 2009, 2010
381 yards 5 TDs, and (10) 3rd down conversions.

Mark contributed 981 less yards, 12 less TDs and 21 less 3rd down conversions that kept those scoring drives alive

I try to go in order, it's a pain to quote each piece. I am trying to rush through thus stuff.

4 ranked rush O thanks to Brad Smith in the WC and end arounds and a meaningless week 17 game where we rushed for over 300 yds. Our run game was average that year, that's why we don't just look at rankings.

The D looked good on paper but this is the same D that lost 45-3 to NE, the same D that tried to blow games late at Miami, at Den, at Cle, Hou, Min and did blow a double digit lead at Chi. we won 11 games mainly b/c Mark and the pass O rescued us numerous times.

He played a huge role in those comebacks.

mark gets his share of the blame for Atl but not all games are the same, sometimes there are low scoring games. I was there, it was cold and windy. not a great day for either O but the D folded again in a big spot like they have done so often.

It's not ridiculous, you have to compare apples to apples. You are showing cumulative #s where 1 QB had many more attempts.

The bottom line is both QBs played really well in their playoff wins, both relied on D. One D showed up in all games, the other did not.

Oh and Sanchez has played well in all playoff games. You skip over the Eli one and dones where he has THREE of them and is 41-74, 55%, 443 yds, 2 TDs, 6 INTs, led O to 9.7 PPG, 48.4 rating.

I give Eli the same credit, the situations were very different and the execution was very different. The Jets had a great play call, mark made a quick read w/ a great pass in stride and Cotch had no one near him and ran down the sidelines. Eli threw a ball to Nicks where he was hit immediately and then broke 2-3 more tackles to go 66 yds for the TD. Very different situations plus mark's came just after NE scored and pulled w/in 3 pts late in the game.

That 9 min TD drive set the tone for the 1st half.

I don't view mark and Eli as equals, Eli passed him in 2011 and is far ahead of him. If they had equal talent I think they'd be much closer but they don't so you have to evaluate them overall on the talent they have to work with.

Oh so now you need 3rd down conversions on scoring drives to prove something. mark had the biggest 3rd down conversion of the game at SD buying time and making an incredible throw to Keller for the TD that gave us the lead for the first time in the game.

Tebow won games scoring close to 10 pts each time, he would have one drive. That's very different from Mark's comeback/GW drives.

Pretty much all of them.

You have said my #s are off but never proven anything.


Mark didn't have Cruz and Nicks to throw hail Mary's too or dump off for 60-99 yd TDs. You seem to keep forgetting this point.