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Sports Buzz 8-12

all this will davis vs jamar taylor stuff. why not use them both

who says they wont? remember, they do a BUNCH of different things in camp. different combo's of guys and different places to watch them, nickle, boundary, etc.... . who plays the best paired with who.

but all that doesnt mean a thing, yet, about how much time or who will be on the field together.
 
Good to hear about Thomas. I have not been a fan of his, at all, and if he's making strides that's great.

As to Jordan- he's the ultimate joker player and best suited as a 3/4 OLB on a team that runs a 4/3 and traded up to get him with the 3rd pick in the draft. If the coaching staff can't find a way to run a hybrid 4/3- 3/4 defense that maximizes his nearly unique talents, that's on them. The dude can pass rush, cover and run like a deer- at least he could before the team had him put on the extra weight. He still gets tied up at the LOS and his weakness is holding his own at the LOS and getting tied up with big and athletic OL, getting ridden outside just like what happened all the time at Oregon. If they can't get Jordan rushing the passer, disguising coverages and dropping off in pass coverage, or just play damn OLB where he belongs, then they never should have drafted him in the first place- let's not forget that the FO passed on a shot at drafting Star Loutulelei (perfect replacement for Paul Soliai) and Menleik Watson to draft Jordan. Watson becomes our starting RT and then we wouldn't have had to reach for Ju'Wuan James- could have taken who should have been drafted there, WR Brandin Cooks, or slid down and picked up the extra third rd pick. Then you can add Trai Turner and Martavis Bryant to this year's draft haul, if that happened and the FO didn't reach up for Billy Turner and give up a 4th rd pick. That isn't hindsite imo as much as it is what should have happened.

But regardless FO, play the hand well that you now have and learn a lesson from Don Shula- use your players in ways that play to their strengths- Jordan is an incredibly athletic pass rusher and coverage OLB, and that's where he belongs. If he's not moved around significantly, dropped back into coverage and used to disguise defenses and to confuse opposing QBs then he'll probably never see his true potential. And that's a shame.

So we should adjust our entire defense for one player...good thinking. Let's say we did that, we put Odrick at DE, Mitchell at NT and Starks at the other DE for the 3 down lineman...Wake at one OLB, Misi and Ellerbe inside (even though Ellerbe played OLB in Baltimore's 3-4), and you want to put Jordan at the other OLB spot? I wouldn't put him in there over OV. OV has better pass rushing skills and he's better against the run. Again, it's not the scheme its the player. Jordan put on the weight, he got stronger but he's not any better.
 
it's the scheme fit for the player...trying to make a guy into something he's not...a top 5 pick no less
 
How is everyone seeing these plays from TC? Are there videos online or you guys were there?
 
A month or two ago I was excited over what could be a really intriguing training camp battle between Jordan and Vernon and the possibilities of running like a 1-6 defense with just one DT and a bunch of linebackers. Now I'm just trying to bite my tongue a bit until I see him in games but I'll say this: whenever I think of Jordan I start getting angry.
 
it's the scheme fit for the player...trying to make a guy into something he's not...a top 5 pick no less
What is he? Right now he's not a DE in the 4-3? We only assume he's an OLB in the 3-4 but we've not seen him play there in the NFL so it's easy to say that's what he is. Too many people are quick to blame scheme fit on why a player doesn't work for us...and that's been true about a lot of players Ireland drafted but IMO there's something missing here. He just may be a bust.
 
What is he? Right now he's not a DE in the 4-3? We only assume he's an OLB in the 3-4 but we've not seen him play there in the NFL so it's easy to say that's what he is. Too many people are quick to blame scheme fit on why a player doesn't work for us...and that's been true about a lot of player Ireland drafted but IMO there's something missing here. He just may be a bust.

he's a 34 olb...he's always been one...a 2 and 3 point stance player where the cod and feet can show off more and he doesnt have to handle as much poa wise...where his lateral agility can show off more where he can stretch things out wide where he can cover the flats and drop into soft zones etc...i don't know how anyone could watch that oregon tape and come to any other conclusion...it's why he wasn't on my miami targets scoops that year...

he showed off rediculous top 20 pick corner like movement skills at the combine...his gifts are filthy...but not at levon kirkland weight

he'd play every down in a 34...no situational anything
 
it's the scheme fit for the player...trying to make a guy into something he's not...a top 5 pick no less

You don't take an outside LB for a 4-3 in the top 5. You don't change your scheme for a player based on a projection. And its looking like it was a mistake to think Jordan could transition to a DE. So no matter how you slice it, it was a bad decision to trade up for and take Jordan at 3. That 7 year old scout is looking to be dead on, Jordan probably should have had a second round grade for most teams, especially 4-3 teams.
 
You don't take an outside LB for a 4-3 in the top 5. You don't change your scheme for a player based on a projection. And its looking like it was a mistake to think Jordan could transition to a DE. So no matter how you slice it, it was a bad decision to trade up for and take Jordan at 3. That 7 year old scout is looking to be dead on, Jordan probably should have had a second round grade for most teams, especially 4-3 teams.

the broncos took von miller at #2 to play strong and then rush off the edge in the sub package...similar to what the raiders are doing with khalil mack...although playing off the los you can see hesitation in his game...and you'd see it in jordans also
 
he's a 34 olb...he's always been one...a 2 and 3 point stance player where the cod and feet can show off more and he doesnt have to handle as much poa wise...where his lateral agility can show off more where he can stretch things out wide where he can cover the flats and drop into soft zones etc...i don't know how anyone could watch that oregon tape and come to any other conclusion...it's why he wasn't on my miami targets scoops that year...

he showed off rediculous top 20 pick corner like movement skills at the combine...his gifts are filthy...but not at levon kirkland weight

he'd play every down in a 34...no situational anything

Hoops you know full well there have been ridiculous athletes that amounted to nothing in the NFL. Guys who, on tape, looked like sure fire NFL stars and dominated in college (which Jordan did not) and just faded from NFL memory.

When I evaluated this guy I saw ridiculous athlete with little production in college. His athleticism didn't match the production. He had overrated written all over him and I cautioned a friend of mine, who was a Cleveland fan, that it wasn't the guy you wanted to draft. You can use whatever excuses you want....he dropped back in coverage more in college than he rushed the passer, he was used all over the field and never had a true position to work on, etc., etc. The fact that he talked about getting with Jason Taylor and would "definitely pick his brain" but never did should send up a red flag. Rumors of his lack of work ethic (although no proof) should send up a red flag. Taking PEDs should send up a red flag.

The #3 overall pick and first defensive player taken should be way ahead of where Jordan is right now. I'm normally one of the more patient fans on this board but for Jordan, all things considered, I'm done waiting. He's got 3 preseason games left, going against 2nd and 3rd string OTs, he better start outplaying Terrence Fede in some of these games at least...at least outplay a 7th round rookie pick.
 
Hoops you know full well there have been ridiculous athletes that amounted to nothing in the NFL. Guys who, on tape, looked like sure fire NFL stars and dominated in college (which Jordan did not) and just faded from NFL memory.

When I evaluated this guy I saw ridiculous athlete with little production in college. His athleticism didn't match the production. He had overrated written all over him and I cautioned a friend of mine, who was a Cleveland fan, that it wasn't the guy you wanted to draft. You can use whatever excuses you want....he dropped back in coverage more in college than he rushed the passer, he was used all over the field and never had a true position to work on, etc., etc. The fact that he talked about getting with Jason Taylor and would "definitely pick his brain" but never did should send up a red flag. Rumors of his lack of work ethic (although no proof) should send up a red flag. Taking PEDs should send up a red flag.

The #3 overall pick and first defensive player taken should be way ahead of where Jordan is right now. I'm normally one of the more patient fans on this board but for Jordan, all things considered, I'm done waiting. He's got 3 preseason games left, going against 2nd and 3rd string OTs, he better start outplaying Terrence Fede in some of these games at least...at least outplay a 7th round rookie pick.

i don't see where i'm making excuses...the guy was drafted for the wrong system...whether or not he's hungry enough to ever be great only he really knows that right now...i just know that you'd get more bang for your buck in a 34 with a slimmed down athletic version and not a bloated one

that height and thin torso plays against him as a 43 de and it would play against him at strong but the lateral abilities and click and close would make up for it provided he dropped this bad weight

i'm not asking you to wait on the guy anyways...i'm dissappointed myself but i think more than anything it's the weight gain and trying to do something that doesnt reflect his real talents and physical abilities and the fit that's the biggest issue

he's a neofite (sp???) pass rush polish wise also...i get it...there's no way that guy should get off the ball as slow as he has since he got here...it's like they decided he puts on the weight it's all he needs to do...i got news for em that couldn't be farther from the truth...
 
So we should adjust our entire defense for one player...good thinking. Let's say we did that, we put Odrick at DE, Mitchell at NT and Starks at the other DE for the 3 down lineman...Wake at one OLB, Misi and Ellerbe inside (even though Ellerbe played OLB in Baltimore's 3-4), and you want to put Jordan at the other OLB spot? I wouldn't put him in there over OV. OV has better pass rushing skills and he's better against the run. Again, it's not the scheme its the player. Jordan put on the weight, he got stronger but he's not any better.

Am I understanding you right in that you'd play Olivier Vernon at OLB over Dion Jordan? Seriously? Come on dude. As to adjusting the defense- damn right they should adjust the defense for Jordan. They were running a 4/3 when they drafted Jordan, and the dude is best suited for 3/4 OLB, that's pretty obvious. But no one forced the FO to draft Jordan, they did it knowing that the match wasn't a perfect fit- DJ is long in the waist, high center of gravity- pass rushing in the proper system is fine, but do you want this guy spending more time in the flats covering RBs and TEs and rushing the passer at OLB or grunting it out in the trenches with OTs outweighing him by 50 pounds with lower centers of gravity? I'll take the former.

Look at what happened to Kim Bokamper- was he a better fit as a jumbo OLB or as an undersized DE? Dude is huge, I ran into him decades ago at a driving range in Ft. Lauderdale- one big and powerful mofo- but he's long, like Jordan, high center of gravity. Think of a bigger Tom Selleck. The point is, Jordan's genes and body type don't say DE, they say OLB. And those genes include being a ludicrously good, fast and quick coverage OLB, those types you don't come across all that often. That's why he was the 3rd pick in the draft, not because he was some super DE- he wasn't.

So if the FO insists on running a 4/3, fine. But why draft Jordan then if you're not going to move him around a lot, have him drop off the LOS and pick up the RB in the flat, blanket TE's like Gronk deep like last year, pass rush from a wide outside stance, use that quickness and speed where it belongs- IN SPACE. His athletic genius is being 6-6 of lean muscle bundled into a fury of strength and unbelievable speed and quickness. You let a player like that do what he does best, at that certainly ain't wrestling at the LOS with big, athletic OTs with lower centers of gravity.

Even in a 4/3, you play him at OLB imo- Jordan Tripp can cover pretty well and so can Jelani Jenkins, but before DJ put on the FO mandated weight, which OLB on the team covered better than he did? Pass rushed better? No one. He's an Outside Linebacker, and that's where he should be playing. It's not his fault that a team that uses a 4/3 defense drafted him, they made that choice. They should alter their scheme, therefore, to fit his vast talents, especially considering the price that they paid for him. This wasn't a player drafted in the middle rounds on a whim, a flier taken on an unknown commodity. This was the third player taken in the drat. Treat him as such.
 
I have a sneaking suspicion that if Jordan was moved to OLB people would be complaining that we aren't letting him do what he does best in rushing the passer more.
 
I have a sneaking suspicion that if Jordan was moved to OLB people would be complaining that we aren't letting him do what he does best in rushing the passer more.

That's the problem how do you get him enough pass rushes at OLB in a 4/3? That's why the coaches have to get creative, and that's what you have to do if you want to maximize the potential of a tailor made 3/4 OLB who was drafted by a team running a 4/3. The FO created the problem, now the coaches have to fix it.
 
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