Stop the no FS/SS madness!!!

[CVass]

I posted this in the VIP and I thought I would share it with you folks here...

Hello,

It's been a while, but I just graduated from UM, so the move and all that has taken some time. Anyway, I can't take this anymore. I want to clarify Saban's comments and what he means. This is only my opinion, but I have a pretty good feeling about how I have interpreted it.

Yes, there is no Free Safety and Strong Safety in name. This is because if the formation changes strength, then the Safeties don't have to flip. This is especially important on Cover 1 and Cover 3, when one safety plays Middle, and the other goes into the box to pick up a man, blitz, or provide cutback support.

However, the Safeties are assigned with a Strong and Free principle when giving them "Left" and "Right" denotations. Think about LBs. Some defenses flip their LBs, which is why they call Sam and Will. If the formation changes strength or the front called isn't balanced, or mostly balanced (Under/Over fronts), the defense is defending one side of the formation. However, some defenses assign a Right Outside Linebacker and a Left Outside Linebacker. Defensive coaches, when assigning ROLB and LOLB positions, have a clear paradigm in mind, and the difference is all in tendencies.

Most offenses are right handed, or more importantly for this discussions, from the defense's perspective, favors the left side. To the Defense, the TE is on the left and almost as important as that, the plays are run to the left, which means a lot of plays are on the left hash (again from the defense's point of view). So going with the ROLB and LOLB theory, the Left side players, are usually more stout because most teams run to the formation. Don't believe me? Go look at typical size and speed comparison for the LOLB and ROLBs for 4-3 teams. This applies for SS and FS. The SS usually plays for the formation or on the Left side, and the FS is on the right side, the open side. Again, most SS are more stout, while the FS has more range. Again, look at the type of players that play SS and FS -- there is a clear difference.

In closing, Saban, and a lot of the people on here are right. In name, there is no Strong Safety or Free Safety. It is all on philosophy. Even if there is a Strong and Free side, unless the players are swapping on motion, the Free becomes Strong and Vice Versa. HOWEVER, in choosing players to play in certain positions, the Left Safety will be more of a Strong Safety type and the Right Safety will fit more into the mold of a Free Safety.

I hope this made sense... It is time to discuss...


(NOTE: Going back to LBs... I find it funny that in the Tampa Two, the vaunted Will position, which in every defense that uses Sam and Will terminology that I have ever heard of besides the T2 designates as the Weakside LB, is actually the Strongside LB -- I.E. Derrick Brooks is supposedly the Weakside LB in the T2, but actually plays over the OT where the TE is. big bonus points to anyone who can solve that mystery to me).

EDIT: Tampa does play a lot of Under defense, and Brooks plays the weakside against that, but their base, and what they play more often than not is an Over Defense with the Will on the TE side...

 

[SoDakDolfan]

Good read, thanks. I think it is important to understand that Saban wants as many players as possible to be interchangeable, but especially the two safety positions. I believe Saban wants both safeties to be able to cover like a corner, hit like a linebacker and blitz like a demon.

 

[Silverphin]

I posted this in the VIP and I thought I would share it with you folks here...

Hello,

It's been a while, but I just graduated from UM, so the move and all that has taken some time. Anyway, I can't take this anymore. I want to clarify Saban's comments and what he means. This is only my opinion, but I have a pretty good feeling about how I have interpreted it.

Yes, there is no Free Safety and Strong Safety in name. This is because if the formation changes strength, then the Safeties don't have to flip. This is especially important on Cover 1 and Cover 3, when one safety plays Middle, and the other goes into the box to pick up a man, blitz, or provide cutback support.

However, the Safeties are assigned with a Strong and Free principle when giving them "Left" and "Right" denotations. Think about LBs. Some defenses flip their LBs, which is why they call Sam and Will. If the formation changes strength or the front called isn't balanced, or mostly balanced (Under/Over fronts), the defense is defending one side of the formation. However, some defenses assign a Right Outside Linebacker and a Left Outside Linebacker. Defensive coaches, when assigning ROLB and LOLB positions, have a clear paradigm in mind, and the difference is all in tendencies.

Most offenses are right handed, or more importantly for this discussions, from the defense's perspective, favors the left side. To the Defense, the TE is on the left and almost as important as that, the plays are run to the left, which means a lot of plays are on the left hash (again from the defense's point of view). So going with the ROLB and LOLB theory, the Left side players, are usually more stout because most teams run to the formation. Don't believe me? Go look at typical size and speed comparison for the LOLB and ROLBs for 4-3 teams. This applies for SS and FS. The SS usually plays for the formation or on the Left side, and the FS is on the right side, the open side. Again, most SS are more stout, while the FS has more range. Again, look at the type of players that play SS and FS -- there is a clear difference.

In closing, Saban, and a lot of the people on here are right. In name, there is no Strong Safety or Free Safety. It is all on philosophy. Even if there is a Strong and Free side, unless the players are swapping on motion, the Free becomes Strong and Vice Versa. HOWEVER, in choosing players to play in certain positions, the Left Safety will be more of a Strong Safety type and the Right Safety will fit more into the mold of a Free Safety.

I hope this made sense... It is time to discuss...


(NOTE: Going back to LBs... I find it funny that in the Tampa Two, the vaunted Will position, which in every defense that uses Sam and Will terminology that I have ever heard of besides the T2 designates as the Weakside LB, is actually the Strongside LB -- I.E. Derrick Brooks is supposedly the Weakside LB in the T2, but actually plays over the OT where the TE is. big bonus points to anyone who can solve that mystery to me).

EDIT: Tampa does play a lot of Under defense, and Brooks plays the weakside against that, but their base, and what they play more often than not is an Over Defense with the Will on the TE side...

Good read.

Question: Does Yeremiah Bell, Renaldo Hill, and/or Deke Cooper fits the mold of a safety that could play in the Left or Right Safety mold?

 

[CVass]

Good read, thanks. I think it is important to understand that Saban wants as many players as possible to be interchangeable, but especially the two safety positions. I believe Saban wants both safeties to be able to cover like a corner, hit like a linebacker and blitz like a demon.

I think so too, however, you tend to favor one or the other and you play tendencies. You rarely face a balanced formation in the middle of the field all the time. Look at the Pats or Steelers for example -- with LBs, they designate Left and Right. Can both their LOLB and ROLB blitz, cover, and stuff the run? Yes... However, in a 3-4, most of the time (dictated by tendencies) the ROLB is the better blitzer and the LOLB is more stout against the run. Most of the better pass rushers in this scheme are on the right side a la Porter, Vrabel, Lawson, Taylor, etc. and it isn't because of the "blind side" -- it is because the TE is on the other side. It is a little harder to go fult tilt as a pass rusher when you have to worry about a TE and runs coming at you.

 

[CVass]

Good read.

Question: Does Yeremiah Bell, Renaldo Hill, and/or Deke Cooper fits the mold of a safety that could play in the Left or Right Safety mold?

Personally, I think Allen will be placed first. You always want to play to your personnel and inherent strengths and weaknesses. If I am Saban/Capers, I put Allen at Right Safety -- he is more of a cover guy and isn't a missile on run support like a Polamalu where they would roll him into the box a lot (unless he is defending against the cutback).

Another reason is that I simply do not see Bell, Hill, or Cooper seperating themselves to a point where their strength or weakness would mess up my thought my process. None of them wow in coverage or suck enough in run support to make Allen do that. My money is on Hill however -- if he's #2 in tackles on the Raiders, he can lay the wood, at least with some proficiency.

If I had to say right now --

Left Safety (traditionally SS) - Reynaldo Hill
Right Safety (traditionally FS) - Jason Allen

IMO, don't expect to see a lot of Cover 2 this year. I see a lot of Man Free, Cover 3, and 5 man blitzes w/ 3 underneath and 3 deep.

Again, this is just my thoughts on the knowledge I have of defense, 50 defense, and personnel. No crucifixions neccesary... :)

 

[Silverphin]

Personally, I think Allen will be placed first. You always want to play to your personnel and inherent strengths and weaknesses. If I am Saban/Capers, I put Allen at Right Safety -- he is more of a cover guy and isn't a missile on run support like a Polamalu where they would roll him into the box a lot (unless he is defending against the cutback).

Another reason is that I simply do not see Bell, Hill, or Cooper seperating themselves to a point where their strength or weakness would mess up my thought my process. None of them wow in coverage or suck enough in run support to make Allen do that. My money is on Hill however -- if he's #2 in tackles on the Raiders, he can lay the wood, at least with some proficiency.

If I had to say right now --

Left Safety (traditionally SS) - Reynaldo Hill
Right Safety (traditionally FS) - Jason Allen

IMO, don't expect to see a lot of Cover 2 this year. I see a lot of Man Free, Cover 3, and 5 man blitzes w/ 3 underneath and 3 deep.

Again, this is just my thoughts on the knowledge I have of defense, 50 defense, and personnel. No crucifixions neccesary...

Alright, thanks.

 

[HybridPHIN 23]

i guess im being a little narrow minded, but i'll always associate the Cover safety as the FS, and the other one the SS. I understand that the formation is usually irrelevant, however i believe when it comes down to it, We'll have two different breeds of Safety, that will be used in different matters, on their best suited side for that given play. Many secondaries use theirs the same way, but indeed it's clear one is in a FS mold, the other a SS mold. Thank you for clearing it up for me I'm dyin to learn from more posts like that one.

 

[SuperBankz]

i really need to sign up for VIP. Finally a thread where someone knows what they are talking about. Good read.

 

[CVass]

i guess im being a little narrow minded, but i'll always associate the Cover safety as the FS, and the other one the SS. I understand that the formation is usually irrelevant, however i believe when it comes down to it, We have to different type of Safeties that will be used in different matters, on their best suited side for that given play. Many secondaries use theirs the same way, but yes it's clear one is in a FS mold, the other a SS mold. Thank you for clearing it up for me I'm dyin to learn from more posts like that one.

Well I am glad I can help. I want to coach Defense so this is my thing -- stuff I like to ramble on about.

I think Saban, along with a lot of other coaches, realized that offenses are increasingly motioning to create match-up problems (especially with TEs), the flip-flopping would be nuts. Plus, if you pigeon-hole the player, there is no flexibility. This is all true, but people take it one step further and decide because there isn't a FS and a SS, that there really isn't a difference and that they are completely interchangeable. In a perfect world, they would be, but like I said, teams favor the field/boundary or running/passing to a particular side. So yes, the LS (SS) could play the ball hawk position, but 6 times out of 10, you want the RS (FS) being the ball hawk -- unless of course you are playing the Falcons and Vick.

This is a debate that rages to this day with defensive coordinators -- to flip-flop or to not flip-flop. There are inherent strengths and weaknesses to each theory. You can be more sound against the run and pass with flip-flopping, but you lose flexibility and disguise in some ways. However, if there are strong disparities between your run-stuffing LOLB (Sam) and your fleet footed, risk-taking ROLB (Will), the offense could motion the TE, and run weakside into the bubble to exploit your weakness.

If you are looking for good football talk, check out Pat Kirwan from NFL.com and Sirius NFL Radio. Best guy talking about football anywhere IMO. Could listen to him allllll day!

 

[RoninFin4]

For the bonus points, isnt that because Monte Kiffin always drops the the middle linebacker, Shelton Quarles straight back into coverage and Brooks playing over the TE would be more apt to make plays there due to the tendency of teams running to the strongside of their offense (where the TE is). Brooks is still fast enough to get backside as well, so...do you think that is the answer?

 

[CVass]

For the bonus points, isnt that because Monte Kiffin always drops the the middle linebacker, Shelton Quarles straight back into coverage and Brooks playing over the TE would be more apt to make plays there due to the tendency of teams running to the strongside of their offense (where the TE is). Brooks is still fast enough to get backside as well, so...do you think that is the answer?

That is correct, but that doesn't answer why they call Brooks and anyone who plays in his alignment the "Will" when he's really the Strongside LB, or the Sam.

EDIT: I have a TB defensive playbook and thought it was a typo. However, I got an AFCA publication w/ Sonny Lubick, who got a lot of his current defensive principles from Kiffin, explain it the same way. I thought it was a mass conspiracy until I finally got to watch an extensive amount of film on Tampa's D. And it's true... Brooks plays over the TE side Tackle on all the Over/Over Stem fronts.

 

[RoninFin4]

That is correct, but that doesn't answer why they call Brooks and anyone who plays in his alignment the "Will" when he's really the Strongside LB, or the Sam.

EDIT: I have a TB defensive playbook and thought it was a typo. However, I got an AFCA publication w/ Sonny Lubick, who got a lot of his current defensive principles from Kiffin, explain it the same way. I thought it was a mass conspiracy until I finally got to watch an extensive amount of film on Tampa's D. And it's true... Brooks plays over the TE side Tackle on all the Over/Over Stem fronts.

Could that just be terminology specific to the Kiffin "Tampa 2" D. I'd think since Dungy uses it in Indy one could look there to see how they define Cato June who plays Brooks' role. Interesting you have a Tampa playbook, how'd you come across that and where were you with it last year? :wink: We could have used it.

 

[CVass]

Could that just be terminology specific to the Kiffin "Tampa 2" D. I'd think since Dungy uses it in Indy one could look there to see how they define Cato June who plays Brooks' role. Interesting you have a Tampa playbook, how'd you come across that and where were you with it last year? :wink: We could have used it.

Haha, it's widely available on the internet. The year listed varies, but I have seen it listed between 99-03.

I agree. It is something unique to the Tampa 2 system. However, my question is why. Why does Kiffin/Dungy/Lovie S. call the Weakside LB the Sam and the Strongside LB the Will? I have never seen it before and was wondering why. My best explanation thus far, like I said, was that in the Under front, Brooks plays the Weakside and they just keep his classification the same for the Over fronts. The Under defense is listed first. However, that isn't their base. They play a lot more of the Over 4-3 than the Under from what I have seen.

 

[RoninFin4]

Haha, it's widely available on the internet. The year listed varies, but I have seen it listed between 99-03.

I agree. It is something unique to the Tampa 2 system. However, my question is why. Why does Kiffin/Dungy/Lovie S. call the Weakside LB the Sam and the Strongside LB the Will? I have never seen it before and was wondering why. My best explanation thus far, like I said, was that in the Under front, Brooks plays the Weakside and they just keep his classification the same for the Over fronts. The Under defense is listed first. However, that isn't their base. They play a lot more of the Over 4-3 than the Under from what I have seen.

I've always seen it listed as Sam and Will also. The only other possibility I can think of is if they have certain packages where a nickel corner, similar to how the Raiders used Renaldo Hill last year or DE that drops into coverage from the strongside could be called a "Sam" and referring to Brooks as "Will" in that package would simplify the terminology throughout the playbook.

 

[Anthony D.]

I posted this in the VIP and I thought I would share it with you folks here...

Hello,

It's been a while, but I just graduated from UM, so the move and all that has taken some time. Anyway, I can't take this anymore. I want to clarify Saban's comments and what he means. This is only my opinion, but I have a pretty good feeling about how I have interpreted it.

Yes, there is no Free Safety and Strong Safety in name. This is because if the formation changes strength, then the Safeties don't have to flip. This is especially important on Cover 1 and Cover 3, when one safety plays Middle, and the other goes into the box to pick up a man, blitz, or provide cutback support.

However, the Safeties are assigned with a Strong and Free principle when giving them "Left" and "Right" denotations. Think about LBs. Some defenses flip their LBs, which is why they call Sam and Will. If the formation changes strength or the front called isn't balanced, or mostly balanced (Under/Over fronts), the defense is defending one side of the formation. However, some defenses assign a Right Outside Linebacker and a Left Outside Linebacker. Defensive coaches, when assigning ROLB and LOLB positions, have a clear paradigm in mind, and the difference is all in tendencies.

Most offenses are right handed, or more importantly for this discussions, from the defense's perspective, favors the left side. To the Defense, the TE is on the left and almost as important as that, the plays are run to the left, which means a lot of plays are on the left hash (again from the defense's point of view). So going with the ROLB and LOLB theory, the Left side players, are usually more stout because most teams run to the formation. Don't believe me? Go look at typical size and speed comparison for the LOLB and ROLBs for 4-3 teams. This applies for SS and FS. The SS usually plays for the formation or on the Left side, and the FS is on the right side, the open side. Again, most SS are more stout, while the FS has more range. Again, look at the type of players that play SS and FS -- there is a clear difference.

In closing, Saban, and a lot of the people on here are right. In name, there is no Strong Safety or Free Safety. It is all on philosophy. Even if there is a Strong and Free side, unless the players are swapping on motion, the Free becomes Strong and Vice Versa. HOWEVER, in choosing players to play in certain positions, the Left Safety will be more of a Strong Safety type and the Right Safety will fit more into the mold of a Free Safety.

I hope this made sense... It is time to discuss...


(NOTE: Going back to LBs... I find it funny that in the Tampa Two, the vaunted Will position, which in every defense that uses Sam and Will terminology that I have ever heard of besides the T2 designates as the Weakside LB, is actually the Strongside LB -- I.E. Derrick Brooks is supposedly the Weakside LB in the T2, but actually plays over the OT where the TE is. big bonus points to anyone who can solve that mystery to me).

EDIT: Tampa does play a lot of Under defense, and Brooks plays the weakside against that, but their base, and what they play more often than not is an Over Defense with the Will on the TE side...

Actually Saban made a comment on this recently. He said he doesn't see them as Free or Strong but left and right rather. So I think when we see Hill and Allen out there, they pretty much have the same job with Allen leaning toward the deep ball.