Stretching the field..? Is stretching the truth...

[Fish-Head]

Ok, Ok another Penny v Henne thread right? Before you roll your eyes... Admit you might be a little interested since you did at least roll over it...

In the endless fan debate over these two I have noticed trends on both sides of the argument and thought that I would add my 2 cents to try and clear out the clutter like some hope Henne's arm will do to 'the box'.

But rather than write a novel that we would all avoid I am splitting it into 3 threads and that way you guys can address/ignore whatever you choose…

Part 1: ‘Stretching the field is stretching the truth’
Part 2: ‘The Deep out = Deep Doo Doo’
Part 3: ‘The Education of Ted Ginn’

Part 1:

I still hear this from the anti-Penny camp… Inability to stretch the field… At the risk of being incredibly redundant let me try one more time…

The concept of having the arm enough to make DB's fear that space behind them which should prevent ‘stacking the box’ and in a best case scenario loosen the run game.

Admitted it IS AN ADVANTAGE but it is an advantage BASED ON FIELD POSITION once you pass midfield it decreases exponentially and when you hit the opposition's 40... it is gone.

What does it matter if you can throw 70 when you only need to hit at 40? You want to hit that dude in the stands in the Jets hat eating the nachos? What did he ever do to you?

Henne has a distinct advantage on our side of midfield... No question his arm will put fear into those DB's... But hang on... What happens when the field gets short? Defenses can press and stack all they want... The guy who makes his money inside of 20 yards begins to become MORE valuable... Pennington's strengths actually begin to eclipse Henne as they get closer to the promised land... Until..? In the red zone? I gotta go with the guy with the most accurate arm in the game and who avoids turnovers like Vick avoids PETA.

Sorry Pro-Henne... this one? Is a wash.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Two things...

First...you're under the asssumption that Henne can't score a touchdown in the redzone....nor will he ever be able to....

You're right....as long as he's standing on the sidelines....he can't....

Secondly, Pennington avoids interceptions like Vick avoids PETA? lol

As funny as that was....Ed Reed begs to differ....

Have you any idea what Pennington's TD/INT ratio is?

 

[insomnia411]

In the history of football, the general rule is that there are 2 kinds of quarterbacks. One type has a cannon for an arm and likes to fire it all over the field and normally this guy puts up big numbers and lots of points. However, this guy also is prone to lots of picks and often puts the team in bad situations.
The other type (the Pennington prototype) generally has a weaker arm and struggles to stretch the field but excels in accuracy, and efficiency. And although he won't put up huge numbers or lots of points, he's always solid and keeps the team moving.
About three or four times in a generation you get guys that are both accurate, efficient, and have a big arm and those guys make up the best QBs in football. Those guys right now are probably only Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees.
The difference between Pennington and Henne right now is that we KNOW what Pennington is and he will never be a guy that can stretch the field. Now, does that hurt us? Yes. But does Pennington's good outweigh his bad? Most of the time last year it did, but certainly not in the playoff game.
We don't KNOW what we have in Henne. Is he a gunslinger with a big arm? Yes. But that doesn't mean that Henne can't be one of those rare guys who also is very smart and accurate and efficient.
I believe in Pennington this year, but I don't believe we'll win too much with him because of his drawbacks. Haha contradictory to what my sig says which is rather tongue in cheek.

 

[BobDole]

interesting. a few things. you notice that pass out of the endzone where ginn drew the pass interference? he was wide open and if penny had gotten that pass out there that would have been an easy 6 points. we won't know what henne can't do until we see him in some actual games - but we all know what penny can't do. he doesn't have two important things IMO - a strong arm and toughness. those are very important things in the NFL - especially with our current regime.

i will say pennington was a perfect pick up for us last year and we wouldn't be where we are without him. and where we're at right now, i still think he's the best man for the job. i've said it before - and i'll say it again - penny will never lead this team to a SB title unless we have a D like the ravens or bucs from years past. he doesn't have that balls out mentality that will do whatever it takes to come from behind and get the score a la marino. he just doesn't. since i still don't think all the pieces have fallen quite into place on both sides of the ball to get to, let alone win, a SB - i still believe he's our best bet to win football games and there's no need to rush henne in there quite yet.

i'm not saying henne does have all those things - because we just don't know as of yet - but i know pennington doesn't - as we've all noticed having the benefit of watching him his entire career. i love penny and what he brings but i think people are mistaken if they think he will bring us to the promised land - unless our D is completely insane.

 

[Fin #10]

Have you any idea what Pennington's TD/INT ratio is?

Pennington:1.62 101 TD's, 62 INT's
Henne: 0 0 TD's, 0 INT's

 

[72champagne]

Sparano wants Henne in there as evident by talking about the necessity of having the 2nd stringer make halftime adjustments, yada yada. But he's hedging his bets. Just roll the dice & trade Pennington for some picks while there's still time for him to pickup an offense somewhere.

 

[Geforce]

Ok, Ok another Penny v Henne thread right? Before you roll your eyes... Admit you might be a little interested since you did at least roll over it...

In the endless fan debate over these two I have noticed trends on both sides of the argument and thought that I would add my 2 cents to try and clear out the clutter like some hope Henne's arm will do to 'the box'.

But rather than write a novel that we would all avoid I am splitting it into 3 threads and that way you guys can address/ignore whatever you choose…

Part 1: ‘Stretching the field is stretching the truth’
Part 2: ‘The Deep out = Deep Doo Doo’
Part 3: ‘The Education of Ted Ginn’

Part 1:

I still hear this from the anti-Penny camp… Inability to stretch the field… At the risk of being incredibly redundant let me try one more time…

The concept of having the arm enough to make DB's fear that space behind them which should prevent ‘stacking the box’ and in a best case scenario loosen the run game.

Admitted it IS AN ADVANTAGE but it is an advantage BASED ON FIELD POSITION once you pass midfield it decreases exponentially and when you hit the opposition's 40... it is gone.

What does it matter if you can throw 70 when you only need to hit at 40? You want to hit that dude in the stands in the Jets hat eating the nachos? What did he ever do to you?

Henne has a distinct advantage on our side of midfield... No question his arm will put fear into those DB's... But hang on... What happens when the field gets short? Defenses can press and stack all they want... The guy who makes his money inside of 20 yards begins to become MORE valuable... Pennington's strengths actually begin to eclipse Henne as they get closer to the promised land... Until..? In the red zone? I gotta go with the guy with the most accurate arm in the game and who avoids turnovers like Vick avoids PETA.

Sorry Pro-Henne... this one? Is a wash.

I am neither Pro/Anti Pennington or Henne but this is incorrect. Anytime an offense can make a safety, or safeties, respect a pass going over their heads you keep them honest and prevent them from over committing to the run. If I am at the opposition's 40 yard, I still have plenty of room for my receiver to get behind the corner and safety for a big play. Whether the pass is completed or not, just the threat of the big play is sometime enough to keep the safety out of the box.

Accuracy is a great asset for a QB to have but even in the red zone a strong arm is sometimes required because the completion window is smaller. What good is accuracy in the red zone if you cannot get the ball to your receiver before the defender can react to it.

Before Pennington's shoulder injury, his arm was strong enough to fit the ball in those tight windows but now he is a little reluctant to do so.

Stretching the field is not limited to the vertical portion of the field but the width of the field as well.

 

[WindyCityDolfan]

I am neither Pro/Anti Pennington or Henne but this is incorrect. Anytime an offense can make a safety, or safeties, respect a pass going over their heads you keep them honest and prevent them from over committing to the run. If I am at the opposition's 40 yard, I still have plenty of room for my receiver to get behind the corner and safety for a big play. Whether the pass is completed or not, just the threat of the big play is sometime enough to keep the safety out of the box.

Accuracy is a great asset for a QB to have but even in the red zone a strong arm is sometimes required because the completion window is smaller. What good is accuracy in the red zone if you cannot get the ball to your receiver before the defender can react to it.

Before Pennington's shoulder injury, his arm was strong enough to fit the ball in those tight windows but now he is a little reluctant to do so.

Stretching the field is not limited to the vertical portion of the field but the width of the field as well.

I love what Penny has done for us, but these are some great points. A strong "gunslinging" arm also translates to the strength and velocity on your short throws. This perhaps, evens out the accuracy/gunslinger red zone debate. Also, at any point in the field a strong arm can fit passes in where a weaker arm can't....even if it's not a 40-60 yard pass.

 

[Fish-Head]

I am neither Pro/Anti Pennington or Henne but this is incorrect. Anytime an offense can make a safety, or safeties, respect a pass going over their heads you keep them honest and prevent them from over committing to the run. If I am at the opposition's 40 yard, I still have plenty of room for my receiver to get behind the corner and safety for a big play. Whether the pass is completed or not, just the threat of the big play is sometime enough to keep the safety out of the box.

Actually this is EXACTLY THE POINT I was trying to make... When you get past midfield... Penny can make this throw... which was the point.

Accuracy is a great asset for a QB to have but even in the red zone a strong arm is sometimes required because the completion window is smaller. What good is accuracy in the red zone if you cannot get the ball to your receiver before the defender can react to it.

Actually think you might be generalizing just a little here. Obviously there all kinds of situations and the truth is... it is just as easy to make the claim that a 'touch' passer is equally lethal... Especially since the 'jump ball' in the back of the endzone is the preferred method of attack... JMO but I think that accuracy will trump velocity in the red zone more often than not. But that is generalizing too.

Before Pennington's shoulder injury, his arm was strong enough to fit the ball in those tight windows but now he is a little reluctant to do so.

if you are suggesting that he can't make ALL throws inside the 20... I would respectfully disagree... Saying he has a weak arm is one thing but that is suggesting he has NO arm. As far as being reluctant? I would say that the fact Pennington plays within himself, knows his limits better than anyone is a strength... Not a weakness.

Stretching the field is not limited to the vertical portion of the field but the width of the field as well.

Take a look at part 2... Deep out = Deep Doo Doo...

 

[Geforce]

if you are suggesting that he can't make ALL throws inside the 20... I would respectfully disagree... Saying he has a weak arm is one thing but that is suggesting he has NO arm. As far as being reluctant? I would say that the fact Pennington plays within himself, knows his limits better than anyone is a strength... Not a weakness.

Even inside the 20 yard line, the deep outs still come into play. Pennington can throw the deep outs but not with much velocity.

I never said anything about Pennington ruluctance to throw the ball into a tight window in the red zone a weakness. Just stating an opinion.

 

[Fish-Head]

Even inside the 20 yard line, the deep outs still come into play. Pennington can throw the deep outs but not with much velocity.

I never said anything about Pennington ruluctance to throw the ball into a tight window in the red zone a weakness. Just stating an opinion.

Pennington has ALL the tools to make all the plays in the Red Zone... It is very interesting to note that Henne has been struggling in the Red zone, this 'velocity advantage' has not translated in the slightest.

 

[Geforce]

Pennington has ALL the tools to make all the plays in the Red Zone... It is very interesting to note that Henne has been struggling in the Red zone, this 'velocity advantage' has not translated in the slightest.

...and yet the Dolphins struggled in the red zone last year with Pennington at QB. I also think this has more to do with Pennington approach to the game than it does his lack of arm strength.
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2008/11/miami-dolphin-1.html

Pennington's game-management has been very good, his leadership is excellent, the guy is very valuable. But Miami simply needs more scoring passes from him.

But while Pennington would like to get more TD passes, he says there is a reason his number is modest.

“We’re running the ball really well in the red zone," Pennington said. "A lot of times, that’s where you can get some easier touchdowns so to speak, as in the red zone. But we’re running the ball so effectively; we just haven’t had to throw it as much. It’s one of those things as a quarterback: Would you like to have more touchdown passes? Absolutely, just to create more success for your offense.

"But, at the same time, I’m not going to sacrifice, trying to force something in there to try to drive stats up. That’s just not good football.”

As far as Henne struggling in the red zone...it has nothing to do with his arm but his head.

I'm not really sure why you are making this about Pennington vs Henne but I guess that something you have to deal with yourself.

 

[Fish-Head]

...and yet the Dolphins struggled in the red zone last year with Pennington at QB. I also think this has more to do with Pennington approach to the game than it does his lack of arm strength.
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2008/11/miami-dolphin-1.html


As far as Henne struggling in the red zone...it has nothing to do with his arm but his head.

I'm not really sure why you are making this about Pennington vs Henne but I guess that something you have to deal with yourself.

Not at all amigo... I was answering you.. All good.

 

[FINOMINAL]

There is no better example, as it is fresh in all of our minds, the pass Pennington threw to Ginn from our one yard line was under thrown. Resulted in a pass interference call and moved the chains. If that ball is thrown out in front of Ginn, it’s a 99 yard touchdown. That dude is not catching Ginn if he catches that ball in stride. In fact, very few people are catching Ginn if that ball hits him in stride with a step on the defender. Henne is a threat to do that all day long (Please stop with the Madden references people) Pennington will never be able to do that. Those are six point plays. The touchdown that Ricky dropped in the end zone, Henne made that throw. It was not Henne’s fault that we did not score right there. Henne can make every throw. If you see him play with the first team, you may see him have the extra second to look off a receiver. We have not given him the chance to even show that yet. And Ginn has not been given the chance to show how fast he is as a receiver. If he goes down field too far, the ball is going to Bess. Henne is either the next great thing or we need to draft another quarterback next year too. Pennington was off, one-hopped balls and showed nothing special. Because he ain’t.

 

[Fish-Head]

There is no better example, as it is fresh in all of our minds, the pass Pennington threw to Ginn from our one yard line was under thrown. Resulted in a pass interference call and moved the chains. If that ball is thrown out in front of Ginn, it’s a 99 yard touchdown. That dude is not catching Ginn if he catches that ball in stride. In fact, very few people are catching Ginn if that ball hits him in stride with a step on the defender. Henne is a threat to do that all day long (Please stop with the Madden references people) Pennington will never be able to do that. Those are six point plays. The touchdown that Ricky dropped in the end zone, Henne made that throw. It was not Henne’s fault that we did not score right there. Henne can make every throw. If you see him play with the first team, you may see him have the extra second to look off a receiver. We have not given him the chance to even show that yet. And Ginn has not been given the chance to show how fast he is as a receiver. If he goes down field too far, the ball is going to Bess. Henne is either the next great thing or we need to draft another quarterback next year too. Pennington was off, one-hopped balls and showed nothing special. Because he ain’t.

I tried to address that one in the 'Education of Ted Ginn' thread... The truth is I don't think Penny is a perfect QB and I sure don't think that Henne is either, certainly not yet... BUT...

I also do not believe that Penny is AS limited as people say or as easy to defend... I think in this case you are right...and you have to accept that he is not gonna hit on every 99 yard play but maybe the question should be...

Would you rather have 4-6 less INT's per season or 2 extra TD's... That is how I look at it.