Ted Ginn right were he needs to be

[67Stang]

I wanted to compare a few Miami Dolphis greats and a few other receivers sophmore years to Ginns to put things in perspective.

Rcpt Yards Avg Long TDS
OJ McDuffie 37 488 13.2 30 3
Mark Clayton 43 619 14.4 44 3
*Paul Warfield 36 741 20.6 -- 5 *note:3rd year
Chris Chambers 52 734 14.1 59 3
Reggie Wayne 49 716 14.6 49 4
Cris Carter 39 761 19.5 80 6
Hines Ward 61 638 10.5 42 7
*Michael Irvin 36 781 17.1 65 7 *2nd and 3rd year
Ted Ginn JR 56 790 14.1 40 4

Ginn's Sophmore year is just as good, if not better than these receivers and better than any Dolphin's receivers 2nd year, save Duper who was off the charts! It usually takes 3 years for a receiver to really start coming to his own in the NFL. This is his first year in the same O, with the same coaching staff. If you look at the stars above, he isn't quite the bust some are making him out to be...not even close.

 

[Canadianfishfan]

When you look at his numbers you should be incouraged. But for some reason I just can't seem to put a lot of confidence in Ginn. The biggest thing for me is consistency. I believe by being given the #1 WR spot it allows him to concentrate on those duties. I'm sure the Trifecta were a little disappointed that they weren't able to find an explosive kick returner, and may use him there on occasion.

I haven't been one of his biggest supporters but I really hope he breaks it out this year. With so much talk about year three being the year WRs mature into that role, I expect him to make some stride and we'll see exactly what we have.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

I think Ginn will have around 1,000 yards and 7 or 8 TD's. I see him functioning as a lower level #1 this season, and I see him functioning as a stud #2 in the future.

 

[67Stang]

I think Ginns strength is his speed. Penny's strength is accuracy...the two don't fight, but don't mix together. Both of Ginn's receiving touchdowns were when he got behind his guy. I think he can do this consitantly, Penny just can't consistantly get him the ball. This is in no means a dig on Penny, as he makes up for it by spreading the ball, leadership, and wins. Ginn has had to adjust his game to Penny, since you can't teach arm strength. I was not a big fan of the Ginn pick, but he is a good player for us. I think a lot of people aren't even giving him a legit chance because of where he was drafted and other people they wanted drafted there. There is nothing you can do about that. However, his numbers are solid comparitively speaking.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

I think Ginns strength is his speed. Penny's strength is accuracy...the two don't fight, but don't mix together. Both of Ginn's receiving touchdowns were when he got behind his guy. I think he can do this consitantly, Penny just can't consistantly get him the ball. This is in no means a dig on Penny, as he makes up for it by spreading the ball, leadership, and wins. Ginn has had to adjust his game to Penny, since you can't teach arm strength. I was not a big fan of the Ginn pick, but he is a good player for us. I think a lot of people aren't even giving him a legit chance because of where he was drafted and other people they wanted drafted there. There is nothing you can do about that. However, his numbers are solid comparitively speaking.

I have pretty similar feelings. I just think that Hartline will be a better WR in 2 or 3 years time. His size, quickness, and knack for doing the little things are very impressive. He's also a legit deep threat. Ginn and Hartline could end up being an elite combo. I am aware that I'm getting ahead of myself, but I just see Hartline as having all the potential to be a great player.

 

[Sirspud]

I think Ginns strength is his speed. Penny's strength is accuracy...the two don't fight, but don't mix together. Both of Ginn's receiving touchdowns were when he got behind his guy. I think he can do this consitantly, Penny just can't consistantly get him the ball. This is in no means a dig on Penny, as he makes up for it by spreading the ball, leadership, and wins. Ginn has had to adjust his game to Penny, since you can't teach arm strength. I was not a big fan of the Ginn pick, but he is a good player for us. I think a lot of people aren't even giving him a legit chance because of where he was drafted and other people they wanted drafted there. There is nothing you can do about that. However, his numbers are solid comparitively speaking.

I actually disagree with you strongly. Ginn wasn't able to get behind his defender consistently enough for Pennington to hit him. There has to be seperation for Ginn because he's not the type of receiver who can beat a defender for a jump ball, he just doesn't have the size or the skills. Ginn has excellent speed, but even that isn't good enough alone to get separation from defenders at this level.

If you noticed in the last game, Hartline did get separation from the defenders but that wasn't just because he was fast. He put in excellent moves to make the defenders think he was running a different route, then burst upfield (at least it was this way on the second half catch where he didn't interfere). Ginn has always been criticized for being a poor route runner and if you look at the way Hartline runs routes, you can understand why this is so crucial. Ginn's excellent speed is a tremendous skill but to use if effectively he still must be able to put in those moves that will allow him the fraction of a second it needs to get the defender going the wrong direction, where once he turns on the after burners he is gone.

The reason why people are down on Ginn is because he has elite speed but has shown very little progress in actually turning that into production. He has still produced at a reasonable level but hasn't consistently shown the ability to make those plays that he should be able to.

Pennington isn't a strong armed quarterback but he has thrown the ball very well deep. But you have to have separation.

 

[Rhody Phins Fan]

The reason why people are down on Ginn is because he has elite speed but has shown very little progress in actually turning that into production.

He doubled his yardage output from his first to second season. That seems a lot like progress to me.

 

[Gilo45]

He's coming on. He does get seperation, but not immediately within the first 20 yards.

I'd be happy with the same again this season, but I just want to see him break a few all the way. He made a lot of 10-20 yard gains. I wanna see some big plays, with him getting open and beating some guys one on one.

 

[Sirspud]

He doubled his yardage output from his first to second season. That seems a lot like progress to me.

I shouldn't have used the word "production", I got an important phone call halfway through my post and tried to futz my way through the rest while on the phone. But as far as doubling his yardage, well thats pretty easy to do when you are the number one receiver the entire year as opposed to part of the year last year.

What I meant was that he hasn't turned his skills into getting open as often as he should, not necessarily the actual numbers that he produced. And in any case I'm not all that impressed by the numbers. He had 56 catches last year and for a guy who is a number one wide receiver that is absolutely nothing. That averages out to just over three catches a game. We could put Brandon London out there and get just over three catches a game. Now he wouldn't have put up the yardage that Ginn did, but that's why Ginn is a starter. But if we're talking about being able to get open consistently, which is what I was discussing, I think catches are the most relevant stat, because it didn't seem to me like Ginn was bursting open on numerous plays and not targeted or Pennington was trying to throw to him but missing him while somehow being accurate with every other receiver on the team. It should be worth noting that a certain percentage of Ginn's catches were on WR screens as well, as we went to him frequently in this regard to try and get him to make a play with his speed.

The real problem with Ginn is that unless he improves his route running (no signs of that so far this year in limited snaps) he is going to be stuck in a plateau of 56 catches and decent yardage. I know how he stacks up to the second year WR's mentioned in the OP, but how many of those guys were outright given the no. 1 roll from day one in camp without the threat of anyone stealing snaps?

 

[fishypete]

I wanted to compare a few Miami Dolphis greats and a few other receivers sophmore years to Ginns to put things in perspective.

Rcpt Yards Avg Long TDS
OJ McDuffie 37 488 13.2 30 3
Mark Clayton 43 619 14.4 44 3
*Paul Warfield 36 741 20.6 -- 5 *note:3rd year
Chris Chambers 52 734 14.1 59 3
Reggie Wayne 49 716 14.6 49 4
Cris Carter 39 761 19.5 80 6
Hines Ward 61 638 10.5 42 7
*Michael Irvin 36 781 17.1 65 7 *2nd and 3rd year
Ted Ginn JR 56 790 14.1 40 4

Ginn's Sophmore year is just as good, if not better than these receivers and better than any Dolphin's receivers 2nd year, save Duper who was off the charts! It usually takes 3 years for a receiver to really start coming to his own in the NFL. This is his first year in the same O, with the same coaching staff. If you look at the stars above, he isn't quite the bust some are making him out to be...not even close.

Trying to compare Warfield to Ginn is like trying to compare a Jetta to a Vette. Did you notice that Warfield only had 36 receptions..and still acquired 761 yds. Did you add in the fact that he was the primary receiver on a team that didn't throw the football...or did you add the fact that back then receivers were mauled by the corners and safeties?

Of all the receivers you mentioned Stang...I believe the ONLY receiver that had or has Ginn's "speed" is Warfield. The Difference was that Warfield could cut on a dime and didn't take 20 yds to get up to speed, he also could take a 5yd pass and get yards afterwards...something that Ginn rarely does.

 

[67Stang]

Trying to compare Warfield to Ginn is like trying to compare a Jetta to a Vette. Did you notice that Warfield only had 36 receptions..and still acquired 761 yds. Did you add in the fact that he was the primary receiver on a team that didn't throw the football...or did you add the fact that back then receivers were mauled by the corners and safeties?

Of all the receivers you mentioned Stang...I believe the ONLY receiver that had or has Ginn's "speed" is Warfield. The Difference was that Warfield could cut on a dime and didn't take 20 yds to get up to speed, he also could take a 5yd pass and get yards afterwards...something that Ginn rarely does.

Fishy, if you noticed I compared him to a lot of receivers. If Ginn would have put up Warfields numbers, people would be *****'n that he doesn't catch enough. I threw Warfield in there because he was a Phin, however not his third year when he played for the Browns who weren't a primary running team.

 

[cafinfan408]

I actually disagree with you strongly. Ginn wasn't able to get behind his defender consistently enough for Pennington to hit him. There has to be seperation for Ginn because he's not the type of receiver who can beat a defender for a jump ball, he just doesn't have the size or the skills. Ginn has excellent speed, but even that isn't good enough alone to get separation from defenders at this level.

If you noticed in the last game, Hartline did get separation from the defenders but that wasn't just because he was fast. He put in excellent moves to make the defenders think he was running a different route, then burst upfield (at least it was this way on the second half catch where he didn't interfere). Ginn has always been criticized for being a poor route runner and if you look at the way Hartline runs routes, you can understand why this is so crucial. Ginn's excellent speed is a tremendous skill but to use if effectively he still must be able to put in those moves that will allow him the fraction of a second it needs to get the defender going the wrong direction, where once he turns on the after burners he is gone.

The reason why people are down on Ginn is because he has elite speed but has shown very little progress in actually turning that into production. He has still produced at a reasonable level but hasn't consistently shown the ability to make those plays that he should be able to.

Pennington isn't a strong armed quarterback but he has thrown the ball very well deep. But you have to have separation.

He did that vs the Bills in his big game, and the Jets in most important game of the year. Im not the biggest Ginn fan but to me he has shown he has the skills he just doesnt always show it. I am more impressed with that flea flicker catch vs the Seahawks everytime i watch it.

 

[67Stang]

Also Ginn consistantly gets behind his receivers when asked too, he isn't asked to that often because that is not what our QB can do. Look at what happens when he gets behind people like in the Jets game, Penny throws it as far as he can and Ginn has to come back to make a play.

 

[Sirspud]

He did that vs the Bills in his big game, and the Jets in most important game of the year. Im not the biggest Ginn fan but to me he has shown he has the skills he just doesnt always show it. I am more impressed with that flea flicker catch vs the Seahawks everytime i watch it.

I didn't say he didn't do it at all, but the NFL is all about consistency. Most every player in the NFL can make good plays at their position every now and then. But the stars are the ones who learn how to make things happen all the time, not just every now and then.

 

[dellzip]

I wanted to compare a few Miami Dolphis greats and a few other receivers sophmore years to Ginns to put things in perspective.

Rcpt Yards Avg Long TDS
OJ McDuffie 37 488 13.2 30 3
Mark Clayton 43 619 14.4 44 3
*Paul Warfield 36 741 20.6 -- 5 *note:3rd year
Chris Chambers 52 734 14.1 59 3
Reggie Wayne 49 716 14.6 49 4
Cris Carter 39 761 19.5 80 6
Hines Ward 61 638 10.5 42 7
*Michael Irvin 36 781 17.1 65 7 *2nd and 3rd year
Ted Ginn JR 56 790 14.1 40 4

Ginn's Sophmore year is just as good, if not better than these receivers and better than any Dolphin's receivers 2nd year, save Duper who was off the charts! It usually takes 3 years for a receiver to really start coming to his own in the NFL. This is his first year in the same O, with the same coaching staff. If you look at the stars above, he isn't quite the bust some are making him out to be...not even close.

Cant wait!