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"The Deep Ball"

flintsilver7

flintsilver7

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I've seen this stupid phrase tossed around here so many times the past two days. Most of Frerotte's supporters, now having absolutely nothing to hang on to, suggests that he's better because he's willing to throw the vaunted "deep ball." Well, as it stands now, Frerotte's longest is 44 yards and Feeley's is 36. Not a big difference there.

Think about it in terms of horse racing. Suppose you've got a guy who goes to the track every week and bets on the longshot frequently. More often than not, he loses. He'll probably come out ahead 20% of the time. Then you've got another guy who usually takes the safe bet, and almost always wins. Maybe he'll come out ahead 80% of the time. He might not win big, but he'll win.

This is an interesting parallel to Feeley and Frerotte. Some people are just A.J. haters, and won't give him credit no matter what he does. Feeley has a very strong arm, and I'm sure he could overthrow his receivers just as well as Frerotte. Some of you continue to amaze me with your inability to grasp this simple fact:

Inaccurately heaving the ball downfield will lead to more losses than victories.
 
:yeahthat: I agree. Feeley shows greater potential, however, I don't think he has enough time with the first team to start. I see him starting week 5 or 6. Let him learn the offense, improve his reads, and learn how to step up in the pocket, and he will be good for us, not great however.

Oh yeah, I forgot, neither will do well with a sub par O Line, but that looks like its coming around. The O line after all was one of the only factors that restricted Feeley from showing his true potential.
 
Tone_E said:
:yeahthat: I agree. Feeley shows greater potential, however, I don't think he has enough time with the first team to start. I see him starting week 5 or 6. Let him learn the offense, improve his reads, and learn how to step up in the pocket, and he will be good for us, not great however.

Oh yeah, I forgot, neither will do well with a sub par O Line, but that looks like its coming around. The O line after all was one of the only factors that restricted Feeley from showing his true potential.
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Feeley started to come around pretty well last year, and not starting him is going to hurt him. He's got nowhere to go but up, and Frerotte is what he is. I want Jim Bates back.
 
What's the use of having WR's like Chambers and Boston if you're not going to try and hit them deep???...

Frerotte is trying to open up our offense, and even when it's not successful, it sends a clear message to the opposing defenses. "You take our passing game lightly, and we'll throw it deep"....

I've seen tons of drops when Frerotte has started this pre-season. I've also seen some QB mistakes as well. I do know one thing, if you don't try and go deep, you'll never connect regardless. Linehan is trying to mirror what they did in Minny, and Chambers is a good comparison to Moss in this offense IMO.

Feeley has looked like a soldi starter over the last two weeks, but his pocket awareness when faced against starters is very bad. That's what gets him into alot of trouble when comparing him to Frerotte IMO....

An easy sack on Feeley looks like a near miss on Frerotte just because he knows how to slide in the pocket. Feeley gets creamed everytime he sees a guy coming at him, and more often than not, it causes him to make a poor decision, and throw a pick....

I like Feeley's short game, and when he has time to throw, he does well. It's in the eye of the a strong pass rush where he screws up everytime....

PHINZ RULE!!!!
 
BLITZKRIEG said:
What's the use of having WR's like Chambers and Boston if you're not going to try and hit them deep???...

Frerotte is trying to open up our offense, and even when it's not successful, it sends a clear message to the opposing defenses. "You take our passing game lightly, and we'll throw it deep"....

I've seen tons of drops when Frerotte has started this pre-season. I've also seen some QB mistakes as well. I do know one thing, if you don't try and go deep, you'll never connect regardless. Linehan is trying to mirror what they did in Minny, and Chambers is a good comparison to Moss in this offense IMO.

Feeley has looked like a soldi starter over the last two weeks, but his pocket awareness when faced against starters is very bad. That's what gets him into alot of trouble when comparing him to Frerotte IMO....

An easy sack on Feeley looks like a near miss on Frerotte just because he knows how to slide in the pocket. Feeley gets creamed everytime he sees a guy coming at him, and more often than not, it causes him to make a poor decision, and throw a pick....

I like Feeley's short game, and when he has time to throw, he does well. It's in the eye of the a strong pass rush where he screws up everytime....

PHINZ RULE!!!!
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Ha, Frerotte can't threaten anybody. More like "you take us lightly, and I'm going to overthrow my receiver..."

You don't need to throw downfield 20 times a game to win. You hit the open receiver and get the first down. Repeat. Keep your defense rested and keep the opposing offense off stride. Ever think maybe Minnesota's 8-8 mark isn't something to strive for? Wide receivers do more than catch balls on streak routes, by the way. Surely you understand that. If not, Hines Ward and Marvin Harrison would like to speak with you.

Chambers, while I love the guy, is not Randy Moss. Nobody is. You might as well be suggesting that Gus Frerotte is Daunte Culpepper.

Both QB's have had to deal with mistakes. There is no question about that. Unless you are suggesting that mistakes have penalized Frerotte about ten times more than Feeley, this is a pointless statement.

Maybe you aren't aware of this, but Feeley has been sacked ONCE this preseason - on an aggressive rush that would've gotten anybody. Gus has been sacked four times, and fumbled twice. Nice call, but you're, you know, like a mile off on that one. (I'm waiting for that 'first-string defense' excuse on this one. You know, because Miami's backup linemen dominate everybody else's pass rush.)
 
flintsilver7 said:
Feeley started to come around pretty well last year, and not starting him is going to hurt him. He's got nowhere to go but up, and Frerotte is what he is. I want Jim Bates back.
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That's why i wanted to stick with Feeley. I mean dont get me wrong, A.J Feeley made some poor passes and decisions last year, and he's certainly no Peyton Manning. But even in the situation was in he did make some plays, and show some signs of being a quality QB and i'd like to see if with the changes we've made we can bring that out of him for a whole season.
 
Frerotte is as close to hitting his deep recievers as Howard Dean was to becoming president......not very close.
 
There is absolutely no basis for anyone to judge Feeley's "pocket awareness against starters." You have to throw out last year. We had a pathetic offensive scheme that didn't even include hot routes on blitzes. We had no threat of a running game, and one of the worst offensive lines in the history of the NFL. Under those circumstances, any QB is going to look bad. This year, he had 7 pass attempts against "starters." And if not for a Derrius Thompson drop, he completes 5 of those. And this was in the face of a heavy Bears' blitz, especially considering it was the first game of the pre-season.

And as I pointed out in a another thread, you can't judge Feeley's willingness to throw the deep ball until you put him in a situation where it makes sense. The last 2 games, he's out there with Travis Minor at RB, so there's no threat of a running game. Taylor "Turnstile" Whitley is out there on the o-line, along with several other guys who are almost certain to be cut from a team with a weak o-line. And Maurice Mann and Danny Farmer, 2 guys who are destined to be cut, or if lucky may make the practice squad, are the WR. Oh, and Donald Lee at TE. Now, there is no reason to think going deep with that crew is even remotely worthwhile. We've seen that Gus Frerotte is completing 38.5% of his passes with the first team, and that's quite adept at throwing long incompletions. Let's see what Feeley can do with the threat of a Ricky Williams/Ronnie Brown running game, behind our 5 best o-linemen, and the receiving talent of Chambers, Booker, Boston, and McMichael.
 
dolfanmark said:
And as I pointed out in a another thread, you can't judge Feeley's willingness to throw the deep ball until you put him in a situation where it makes sense. The last 2 games, he's out there with Travis Minor at RB, so there's no threat of a running game. Taylor "Turnstile" Whitley is out there on the o-line, along with several other guys who are almost certain to be cut from a team with a weak o-line. And Maurice Mann and Danny Farmer, 2 guys who are destined to be cut, or if lucky may make the practice squad, are the WR. Oh, and Donald Lee at TE. Now, there is no reason to think going deep with that crew is even remotely worthwhile. We've seen that Gus Frerotte is completing 38.5% of his passes with the first team, and that's quite adept at throwing long incompletions. Let's see what Feeley can do with the threat of a Ricky Williams/Ronnie Brown running game, behind our 5 best o-linemen, and the receiving talent of Chambers, Booker, Boston, and McMichael.
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EXACTLY my point. This is why I say playing against the second-team defenses isn't necessarily a blessing - look at who his "supporting cast" is.
 
I"m sorry, but I just don't see that Gus is any better than AJ, with or without the starters. Gus is what he is...what we see from him is his best and will be ALL we will get...With AJ, there is the hope, at least, that he will improve. Since there isn't much difference between the two, it just makes more sense for the long-term to start AJ. Another point is that AJ is a slow starter and tends to improve as the game progresses and the number of games increase (think back to his improvement as the year went on last year.)

That said, AJ does have a weakness in the "pocket sense" area of his game, that is undeniable. Gus does lead him there, but Gus' accuracy is not very good, particularly his "long-ball". Now, one thing that we, as fans cannot gauge is his leadership skills in the huddle. The indications from comments made by players is that Gus leads in this area too. However, I'm sure the other offensive players are tired of the see-saw thing with Gus and AJ, and when Gus was named last week as the starter, it makes sense that they would make those comments, if for nothing more than to put the unrest to bed.

While I think that AJ gives us better options long term, Linehan and Saban apparently don't feel that way...I'll have to concede to their expertise, but will be the first to jump on them when (and I mean when) Gus fails...
 
I take it you're a Feeley hugger???...I'm not, but I have hope for him....

Let's face the facts here folks. Neither one of these QB's are going to scare anyone with their talents. This year it's going to be all about moving the chains, and playing smart football at the QB position....

Right now, I would have to say that although Frerotte has struggled the last two weeks, he's still less mistake prone than Feeley has proven to be. Feeley is what he is....a 3rd string QB dressed up like a starter.....

I hope he does well, and wins the starting job base on his progress and understanding of this offense, but I still don't see anything to provide enough proof that he has come that far yet...

PHINZ RULE!!!
 
The horse racing analogy falls short for one reason -- the horses don't know what people are betting on. On the other hand, if you never throw a deep ball in the NFL, why will defenses cover that part of the field? Sure the innacuracy we've had in the preseason is disturbing, and it argues for more short passing until we can get that straightened out, but we have to keep defenses honest by throwing it down the field.
 
Every single post in this thread has been thoughtful, with clear-headed observations regarding the play this preseason. So far, this is my nomination for Thread of the Fall 2005.

My only question: is anyone on our coaching staff listening? Or do we have another situation like last year, where the QB 'competition' is a thinly-veiled charade? Are we still playing favorites (ie. the veteran who 'knows the system') instead of the one with a better arm and real potential that we may finally get a chance to see?
 
shouright said:
The horse racing analogy falls short for one reason -- the horses don't know what people are betting on. On the other hand, if you never throw a deep ball in the NFL, why will defenses cover that part of the field? Sure the innacuracy we've had in the preseason is disturbing, and it argues for more short passing until we can get that straightened out, but we have to keep defenses honest by throwing it down the field.
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I'm sure if asked, Feeley could throw an incomplete pass deep too.
 
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