The Deep out = Deep Doo Doo

[Fish-Head]

Ok this is 'PART 2' of my Henne v Penny case study... Part 1 if you are interested is 'Stretching the field is stretching the truth'... Anyway here we go...

The ability to throw the 'Deep Out' has evolved into the 'Pro-Henne' Battle cry and truthfully the Penny supporters have been largely quiet in response. With good reason.

:tumbleweed:

Let me take an opinionated, hopefully original and controversial crack at it...

Part 2: 'The Deep Out = Deep Doo Doo'

Alright kiddies, this is a throw that Pennington can only dream about. The truth is, Chad P has never sent any of his receivers to the ER 'Brett Favre style' with broken fingers... and let's face it this throw is about capital 'V' - Velocity. BUT...

JMO... THIS IS A LUXURY THROW. It ain't bread and butter... When the QB sets for it and that arm goes back it is like MATRIX bullet time... Everything shifts into super slo mo... As 70,000 people hold their breath and the OC whispers into his headset 'OMG he is going for it...' Then he prays that a smiling Ed Reed is not saying the same thing...

Hitting the 15-20 yard out is about as difficult a throw as it gets.

• First off you need protection... Your guy has to get downfield AND make the cut... Takes time... When does that buzzer go off in camp? 4 seconds? Well you are gonna need all of ‘em.
• Next you need to get man coverage and/or a safety on dramamine...
• Of course as mentioned, Throwing that far across the field the ball needs to be HOT... to prevent the safety or corner from breaking on it. Like Haley's freakin' Comet hot... Gotta be a finger breaker... And a ball arriving like a tomohawk missile the instant a receiver snaps his head around makes this a VERY DIFFICULT CATCH.
• Oh and did I mention accurate? That sideline arrives awful fast...
• Lest we forget that this is also the easiest of throws for a smart safety to bait the QB into a bad read.

I could go on... 'bout how all this stuff makes it a low percentage play but I gotta admit... it is KINDA SEXY... but then so is watching opposing cheerleaders jump up and down after they sting you for a pick 6.

The only guy I ever saw make this throw look routine is in my sig... Number 13. but let's call it like it is... Henne can make this throw, Pennington cannot. Every QB needs to make a 10 yard out, at 15-20??? No one should try to make that throw all the time... Too risky to be labelled a 'bread and butter' play and I don't consider NOT making it a true liability. But that's just me.

But... Henne takes this one. Surprise surprise.

 

[So Be]

IF the game were only about 15-20 yard outs, you would be correct. There is more to the game. :)

 

[insomnia411]

Actually, all kinds of outs really are the "bread and butter" of a west coast offense. Having a big arm helps, but it's ALL about timing. As you saw, Montana used to hook up with Rice on all types of outs all the time.
Like I said, it's all about timing and the receiver running a great route.

Henne does win this one though because a big arm helps a lot.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

NOT having the ability to make that throw certainly becomes a liability when you're facing a defense capable of shutting your running game down with their front 7...such as playoff caliber defenses can do....

You MUST be able to take advantage of 1-on-1 matchups in this league....especially outside the hashmarks....

One sets up the other...

Teams can stack the middle of the field against you....pressing your recievers.....

If they jam and miss? So what....the fear of getting beat deep isn't there....

If that fear is there.....the DB's will tend to give the receivers more of a cushion....allowing the receiver to get the DB backpedaling instead of flipping his hips and chasing...which opens up this route....

It is a luxury.....and there aren't many teams in this league without it...

 

[So Be]

We don't run a WC offense. Sure you got the right team?

 

[So Be]

Which team do not have it?

 

[Fish-Head]

NOT having the ability to make that throw certainly becomes a liability when you're facing a defense capable of shutting your running game down with their front 7...such as playoff caliber defenses can do....

You MUST be able to take advantage of 1-on-1 matchups in this league....especially outside the hashmarks....

One sets up the other...

Teams can stack the middle of the field against you....pressing your recievers.....

If they jam and miss? So what....the fear of getting beat deep isn't there....

If that fear is there.....the DB's will tend to give the receivers more of a cushion....allowing the receiver to get the DB backpedaling instead of flipping his hips and chasing...which opens up this route....

It is a luxury.....and there aren't many teams in this league without it...

while I agree with alot of this... I gotta ask... Hasn't the game evolved a little more than you are suggesting?

The fact is ALOT of the one on one matchups you are talking about are won by jump ball... Receivers battling CB's on a touch pass 25 yards down the sideline not necessarily the rocket.

In fact WR's body types have evolved to take advantage of this... Randy Moss towering over lil CB's when Brady gives him a 'go and get it' touch ball down the sideline... the offense is wellcoming the one on one matchups with a touch pass since they are building their WR's bigger and taking full advantage of the size mismatch.

I don't think the Deep Out on a Rope is as essential as you paint it... JMO.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

How many jump ball battles do you expect 2 starting WR's who are 5'11' and 5'10" to win?

I may be crazy....but I'd expect their success rate to be much higher with the route combination creating some space and a frozen rope on the sidelines....especially as dependable as their hands are...

 

[Fish-Head]

How many jump ball battles do you expect 2 starting WR's who are 5'11' and 5'10" to win?

I may be crazy....but I'd expect their success rate to be much higher with the route combination creating some space and a frozen rope on the sidelines....especially as dependable as their hands are...

This is PRECISELY why we got Turner. Also why Sean Smith is such a find to DEFEND it as well.

I'm actually Amazed that Corners have not developed his kind of size earlier... The WR's have enjoyed this advantage for a LONG TIME.

I just think the risk to reward ratio is pretty high when you are trying to hit that deep out on a rope consistently... Too many intangibles... Eventually you will get burned. Not 'if' but 'when'...

And when you are playing Baltimore it is not 'if' but 'how often'.

 

[IluvJuMiami]

while I agree with alot of this... I gotta ask... Hasn't the game evolved a little more than you are suggesting?

The fact is ALOT of the one on one matchups you are talking about are won by jump ball... Receivers battling CB's on a touch pass 25 yards down the sideline not necessarily the rocket.

In fact WR's body types have evolved to take advantage of this... Randy Moss towering over lil CB's when Brady gives him a 'go and get it' touch ball down the sideline... the offense is wellcoming the one on one matchups with a touch pass since they are building their WR's bigger and taking full advantage of the size mismatch.

I don't think the Deep Out on a Rope is as essential as you paint it... JMO.

Yes, but it also affects the way a coach will gameplan against you and having to face Rex Ryan twice a year now as well as Belichick makes it a luxury we will have to posses and posses soon if you hope to compete in this division.

If I were a defensive coordinator playing Chad Pennington I'd leave my cornerbacks on an island blitzing my safties or stacking them in the box all day knowing that even if Ginn were to burn a DB Pennington could not hit him in stride.

There's a reason why we needed the Wild Cat last year and the only man who made it look elementary to stop is wearing head phones with division rival colors.

 

[Fish-Head]

Yes, but it also affects the way a coach will gameplan against you and having to face Rex Ryan twice a year now as well as Belichick makes it a luxury we will have to posses and posses soon if you hope to compete in this division.

If I were a defensive coordinator playing Chad Pennington I'd leave my cornerbacks on an island blitzing my safties or stacking them in the box all day knowing that even if Ginn were to burn a DB Pennington could not hit him in stride.

There's a reason why we needed the Wild Cat last year and the only man who made it look elementary to stop is wearing head phones with division rival colors.

I don't think this is any secret... The 'book' on how to 'Stop CHad P.' has been out since the day he entered the league... The single greatest argument Pennington has in his favor is HE KEEPS ON WINNING. The more people say Chad is SO easy to stop the better they make him look...

 

[Geforce]

I don't think this is any secret... The 'book' on how to 'Stop CHad P.' has been out since the day he entered the league... The single greatest argument Pennington has in his favor is HE KEEPS ON WINNING. The more people say Chad is SO easy to stop the better they make him look...

This is not true. The book on "How to Stop Chad P." got a new chapter when he had surgery on his shoulder. It was after that shoulder surgery when Pennington became more of a game manager because he lost a lot of velocity on his passes.

 

[Fish-Head]

This is not true. The book on "How to Stop Chad P." got a new chapter when he had surgery on his shoulder. It was after that shoulder surgery when Pennington became more of a game manager because he lost a lot of velocity on his passes.

Agreed to a point.

I don't think Chad was a completely different player before and after... Did he lose some zip? Absolutely... Did he have to totally reinvent himself after the injury? Absolutely not.

He was always a guy who beat you with his head and heart... Not the arm... At least never with velocity...

 

[Geforce]

Agreed to a point.

I don't think Chad was a completely different player before and after... Did he lose some zip? Absolutely... Did he have to totally reinvent himself after the injury? Absolutely not.

He was always a guy who beat you with his head and heart... Not the arm... At least never with velocity...

How many times did you see Chad play at Marshall? How many times did you see him before he injured his shoulder in 2004?

Pennington took a lot more chances throwing the ball before he injured his shoulder. He knew he had the arm strength to fit the ball into tight spaces or get the ball to his receivers at the right time so they can take advantage of their run after catch ability. Pennington has to rely more on anticipation now than he did when he first came into the league because of his arm strength or lack thereof.

 

[Fish-Head]

How many times did you see Chad play at Marshall? How many times did you see him before he injured his shoulder in 2004?

Pennington took a lot more chances throwing the ball before he injured his shoulder. He knew he had the arm strength to fit the ball into tight spaces or get the ball to his receivers at the right time so they can take advantage of their run after catch ability. Pennington has to rely more on anticipation now than he did when he first came into the league because of his arm strength or lack thereof.

I really cannot comment to his level of confidence I have not talked to the man... I can only comment on observations...

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one... I saw him beat us over and over the same way he beats other teams now...

Smart, ball control, mistake free... Those are the words I have always associated with Chad from day 1... Never velocity or strong arm...

All good sir.