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The End of The Greats

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Porter55

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Hey Guys I don't post on here much but read up on the site everyday. But I have been a die hard fin fan all my life but unfortunately never got to watch Dan Marino really play or Don Shula coach. I was 8 years old when I saw Marino's last game and just remember it was very ugly haha. But I was just had a few questions for you seasoned vets

1. Was Don Shula forced to retire? And at that time when you were fans did you want a change and want Jimmy Johnson to come in?
2. Did Shula and Johnson like each other?
3. Was Dan Marino forced to retire and also as a fan after watching the jags game were you thinking its time for this guy to go? lol
4. Did Dan Marino and Jimmy Johnson not like each other? Was there specific things that happened or that were said and did you feel Johnson disrespected Marino or tried to embarrass him?
I've read so much and just would love to hear real input from fans. Thanks guys and look forward to reading the comments!
 
Shula was forced to retire because the Bills had a better team and we couldn't get by them near the end of Shula's tenure. The pressure mounted with every critical loss to the Bills. They were going to Super Bowls and Don was washed up by many accounts. A final playoff loss to the Bills was the final straw. The Miami offense has never been the same. And we have never been even close to doing anything Shula accomplished since he left so that tells you my stance on the decision.

Not Sure about Shula and JJ but I remember some friction. Shula just stayed away like the consummate Pro he is and let JJ sink his own ship.

Dan was really at the end of his days when he retired. He just couldn't move in the pocket like he did in his earlier days. That resulted in more hits. His second to last game was amazing. He led the Dolphins to their first road playoff victory in 20+ years in Seattle with heroic 4th quarter comeback after suffering a concussion. One of his great all time games IMO. Then the following week the blowout loss to Jags. Consistency just wasn't there at the end.

JJ was defensive minded and Dan was offensive minded. Not a great match from the beginning IMO.

Great topic BTW.
 
Was Don Shula forced to retire? Effectively he was forced out -- though it was publically presented that Huizenga asked the Don to commit to a "new long term plan" to rebuild the team and Shula was given the option to decline -- which he did.

did you want a change and want Jimmy Johnson to come in? The overwhelming concensus of the fan base at the time was that Shula's time has "passed" and we needed to get JJ right away. Everyone was very excited to see JJ come on board and the expectations were he was the new savior.

Did Shula and Johnson like each other? No.

Was Dan Marino forced to retire and also as a fan after watching the jags game were you thinking its time for this guy to go? Wannstedt spoke about the "Dan thing" and once again the fan base etc. knew Marino was not remotely the absolute machine he was in his prime. So in effect he was moved out.

Did Dan Marino and Jimmy Johnson not like each other? I seriously doubt they "liked" each other. Though I believe they both respected their individual accomplishments BEFORE they were brought together.

Was there specific things that happened or that were said and did you feel Johnson disrespected Marino or tried to embarrass him? Not disrespect, but JJ tied Marino's hands but not allowing audibles etc. and was not a coach that wanted a pass dominated offense. JJ also was working with Marino at the very end of his career and Dan was NOT the dominate force he once was.

That's my very quick take.
 
Yes Shula was forced to retire, and yes people were ecstatic for Jimmy. Yes Shula and Jimmy didnt like each other. I guess Shula felt disrespected by Jimmy and Jimmy wanted to cut the cord with the old Dolphins much like he did in Dallas.

Dan was forced to retire in a sense that he was going to be demoted. He tested interest with other teams and there was none acceptable. So he retired. It was time.

Dan and Jimmy did not agree on things initially. Dan was used to slinging the ball, high attempts. Jimmy restricted that as he wanted to run the ball. Dan was not able to thrive in that offense and his game was not what it used to be. So both were not really happy with one another but had no choice but to coexist and make the best of it.
 
Wow great response thanks for your insight guys! Yea i just watched an interview on youtube with don shula it was conducted i think in august and they asked him about jimmy johnson and his reply was "Jimmy who?" haha but he said he wasn't happy how it ended
 
Porter55 said:
Hey Guys I don't post on here much but read up on the site everyday. But I have been a die hard fin fan all my life but unfortunately never got to watch Dan Marino really play or Don Shula coach. I was 8 years old when I saw Marino's last game and just remember it was very ugly haha. But I was just had a few questions for you seasoned vets

1. Was Don Shula forced to retire? And at that time when you were fans did you want a change and want Jimmy Johnson to come in?
2. Did Shula and Johnson like each other?
3. Was Dan Marino forced to retire and also as a fan after watching the jags game were you thinking its time for this guy to go? lol
4. Did Dan Marino and Jimmy Johnson not like each other? Was there specific things that happened or that were said and did you feel Johnson disrespected Marino or tried to embarrass him?
I've read so much and just would love to hear real input from fans. Thanks guys and look forward to reading the comments!
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1. Many may hate to admit this, but the game was in the process/or had passed Shula by (I'm sure I'll get some thumbs down but I was in my late teens and remember it like yesterday and I was still playing ball LOL)

2. Don't know, but I doubt it. They were both two HUGELY successful coaches from different eras, the amount of ego it takes to achieve that amount of success generally stands in the way for the old guard to welcome in the new guard who is taking his place, and the new guard just wants to overtake his predecessor and stamp his own legacy. You do the math

3. Marino may or may not have been forced out, but he was in SERIOUS decline his last 2-3 seasons and it was time for the team to move on - however they had made ABSOLUTELY NOT ONE GODDAMN CONTINGENCY PLAN his last couple of years, so we were left with Jay "Sonar Ears" Fiedler. I hated to watch it happen, in my mind I thought it would take at LEAST 5-7 years to replace him (back when I was an optimistic 20 year old :lol:)

4. If I recall they pretty much hated each other, again Dan had spent his whole career with Shula and JJ was used to being the HCIC (head Caucasian in Charge) everywhere he went...so yeah there was friction

Bottom line, that era, those icons (Shula and Marino) had lived through the extent of their natural football lives and it was time to rebuild. The absolute ATROCITY is that we are STILL rebuilding and haven't come close to matching the 70's - 90's. It is what it is I guess...
 
Patrick_Bateman said:
1. Many may hate to admit this, but the game was in the process/or had passed Shula by (I'm sure I'll get some thumbs down but I was in my late teens and remember it like yesterday and I was still playing ball LOL).
Click to expand...

Have to disagree with you, Sorry no thumbs down.

In Shula last 6 years coaching we never had a losing season and 3 times were in serious discussion for championship. 2 of those were derailed by Jim Kelly to Thurman Thomas out of the backfield. Nobody had an answer for that. The other was the Charger loss who went on to Super Bowl loss. In Don's last 6 years his teams finished in top 4 once, top 8 twice, top 12 once and barely missed the playoffs in the other 2 years. We haven't been close to anything like that since.
 
Patrick_Bateman said:
1. Many may hate to admit this, but the game was in the process/or had passed Shula by (I'm sure I'll get some thumbs down but I was in my late teens and remember it like yesterday and I was still playing ball LOL)

2. Don't know, but I doubt it. They were both two HUGELY successful coaches from different eras, the amount of ego it takes to achieve that amount of success generally stands in the way for the old guard to welcome in the new guard who is taking his place, and the new guard just wants to overtake his predecessor and stamp his own legacy. You do the math

3. Marino may or may not have been forced out, but he was in SERIOUS decline his last 2-3 seasons and it was time for the team to move on - however they had made ABSOLUTELY NOT ONE GODDAMN CONTINGENCY PLAN his last couple of years, so we were left with Jay "Sonar Ears" Fiedler. I hated to watch it happen, in my mind I thought it would take at LEAST 5-7 years to replace him (back when I was an optimistic 20 year old :lol:)

4. If I recall they pretty much hated each other, again Dan had spent his whole career with Shula and JJ was used to being the HCIC (head Caucasian in Charge) everywhere he went...so yeah there was friction

Bottom line, that era, those icons (Shula and Marino) had lived through the extent of their natural football lives and it was time to rebuild. The absolute ATROCITY is that we are STILL rebuilding and haven't come close to matching the 70's - 90's. It is what it is I guess...
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Thanks for the great response! That's some really good information. I'm just curious why do you think the game passed Shula? I saw his last year we were like 9-7 and lost in the playoff which probably was a disappointment at the time but the next year under jj we were 8-8. Was it shulas style of coaching?
 
I was wondering the same thing it seemed like we were still good but maybe the expectations were to high. That chargers loss was that when stoyanovich missed a field goal to go to the Afc champ ? Man I would have been so pissed lol
 
Dolphins were never in serious contention after the mid 80's and killer bees. Dont let the record fool you. Similarly Dolphins had winning seasons under Wannstedt but in reality were a mess with no hope. Dolphins have basically sucked since mid eighties, since they last had a great qb.
 
Porter55 said:
Thanks for the great response! That's some really good information. I'm just curious why do you think the game passed Shula? I saw his last year we were like 9-7 and lost in the playoff which probably was a disappointment at the time but the next year under jj we were 8-8. Was it shulas style of coaching?
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I don't agree that that game had passed Shula but there were some that did. That last playoff loss was to Buffalo. They had eliminated us 2 times prior in the playoffs including a home loss in the AFC Championship game. 3 times in 6 years losing to the same team in the playoffs and something has to give. I would equate it to the Michigan-Ohio State rivalry. If you cant win against the other team you will get fired pretty quickly as coach. Bills had our number.

I guess Don never figured out how to stop the pass to running back in the flat. That was probably his undoing and figuring he could out score the the other team all the time.
 
Porter55 said:
Thanks for the great response! That's some really good information. I'm just curious why do you think the game passed Shula? I saw his last year we were like 9-7 and lost in the playoff which probably was a disappointment at the time but the next year under jj we were 8-8. Was it shulas style of coaching?
Click to expand...

It wasn't just his style of coaching, it was his idea of what team personnel should be. Obviously with a guy like Marino he was safe for a number of years, but he really didn't address the position (Marino after the achilles injury was noticeably different). I love Don Shula, but most/many cannot admit it was time for him to go..period. I'm not blaming him for his teams not being good enough to beat the Bills in the early 90's, the Bills had a HOF QB and RB, and WR and almost their entire defense were HOFs if I'm not mistaken, and a ton of other positions while we had Marino and some pretty good other players. The end of the day, GMs in the NFL, the Bills in particular (and COWBOYS god I hated them), had teams stacked HEAD TO TOE in probowler/HOFs, while we had Dan and whatever other players we picked up (some really good, and others not so much). The game was in the process of passing Shula by, and it was the right time to move on from him - just didn't work out at the time, and still isn't working out now.
 
Fans wanted a mobile qb, especially after Dan's knee operation. Fans watched Young, and Favre, and even Harbaugh and Aikman and even Montana before that. Fans wanted west coast, they wanted running game. Then there were problems on defense. Fans did not feel Shula was the guy to keep up with the times and make the necessary changes.

I watched Shula's teams self destruct a lot, Shula had no answers for years but to turn it over to Dan and say Win It! Shula had no defensive answers for years. People got tired of that.
 
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I don't agree that the game passed Shula by. In fact, as a coach, he was as good as ever. But he was a poor GM. His real successes came before he had GM power. As a GM, he moved away from what worked (smart, hard football players) and started following the trend to try to find great athletes and find the next LT somewhere in the draft. Some of his drafts were just awful. Of course, he wouldn't fire Olivadotti and that was his pride getting in the way.

I would say that, from a talent point of view, from 1986 until Shula retired the Fins had below average talent almost all the time. However, Shula could take a 6-10 team talent wise and make it 10-6. In many ways, this was his downfall. His great coaching made us look better than we were, so we thought we were close to a breakthrough. When JJ arrived he had the same talent and didn't do any better (worse initially) and this says a lot. Marino and Shula carried the team for years and when Marino declined we found out how good we were - not very.

I saw Marino live in his final year in an amazing comeback against Manning in Indy. All game JJ ran Collins and went absolutely nowhere. Finally, Marino took it into his own hands and won the game. Still the best game I ever saw - he still had it! But he retired at the right time.
 
Thanks for the comments guys I love reading everyone's point of view and the facts lots of great input. Man I wish I got to see Marino live or even in his prime. Sadly my memory starts with jay fielder lol and lots of handoff to Ricky haha
 
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