The Producers: Cam & Randy | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

The Producers: Cam & Randy

flintsilver7

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First, I understand this will be a one-star thread for certain. If I've learned anything about Finheaven in the past three years, it's that there are legions of fans who will swallow hook, line, and sinker any move the management makes. It doesn't matter that moves (in either direction) like Gus Frerotte, Daunte Culpepper, Stockar McDougle, L.J. Shelton, Ricky Williams, Joey Harrington, Patrick Surtain, Sam Madison, and so on were made. Some turned out OK - the pass defense, while not nearly as good as with Surtain and Madison, is still pretty good. Some (all of the quarterback moves) have so far been unmitigated disasters.

Now, I haven't been at all sold on Cameron. I had thought at first that after Saban, anybody would be an upgrade. Then Cameron started talking. He started talking about being pass-happy. I, for one, hope that his actual numbers on executed plays in San Diego are more indicative of what we will do than what Cameron said.

The main problem entering this draft was the fact that the offensive line was going to have a brand new left side. People complained about James and McIntosh all the time. That doesn't change the fact that they were actually pretty good at what they did. Also, history shows that an average offensive line playing together for a length of time will almost automatically improve, while shuffling an offensive line is usually a recipe for disaster. Last year, the line started out poorly, but improved almost immediately when it was changed back (at least as much as possible) to the 2005 version. This year, Cameron goes and announces that Carey will enter training camp as the starting left tackle. Letting McIntosh walk was bad enough. Now we've got Carey at LT, when it is pretty clear that the guy is much better suited to play RT. So we're currently sitting with a minimum of three positions changed from last year (including both tackles). That'll be a wonderful combination for a guy who's known to hold on to the ball too long (who as far as I know is currently our starting quarterback).

Of course, there is the question of Trent Green. We've already tried burning a second-round pick on a guy who wasn't a starter. We cast him into the fire and gave him one chance to prove himself - on a team with the worst offensive line in NFL history and no running game - and then promptly discarded for not succeeding where Jesus probably couldn't have. We've tried burning a second-round pick on a guy who may never be healthy enough to play an NFL game again. He doesn't look like it to this point, and it's been a whole season. Now I guess we'll try on a 37 year old quarterback. Who knows? Maybe the third time's a charm. Makes more sense to take a shot at a franchise quarterback than a two-year stopgap, but what do I know?

And what about Randy McMichael? We'll see the effect on that. I'm a huge believer that wide receivers and tight ends can't succeed without a decent quarterback - something we haven't had. It's clear from his time in the NFL that McMichael has incredible talent but has never been consistent. Personally, I think it would've made more sense to keep a guy like that and try to get him somebody to throw him the ball.

The draft makes very little sense to me. My father and I were shocked when they announced Ted Ginn. Not only was Ginn a reach at that point, WR is among Miami's positions of least need. Ted Ginn, assuming he is actually healthy enough to play (having hurt himself doing an endzone celebration), is a good returner. However, he's not a good receiver. He doesn't have good hands, and he's way too small to play in the NFL like that. Ginn's known weaknesses, aside from his total lack of size, are his 1) bad hands and 2) bad route running. Great pick for a receiver, huh? Who the hell takes a special teams man with the 9th pick? Well, not that it matters now. People complain about Chambers left and right, but Ginn has a lot of the same drawbacks of Chambers. He's faster, but everything else makes him worse - and Chambers wasn't a #9 pick either.

So then they get to John Beck. According to the geniuses who make the decisions, they had Beck rated higher than Quinn. They thought Beck had better accuracy. Both are four-year starters. Both have similar numbers. Quinn is three years younger, bigger, and did not have the luxury of playing Tulsa, San Diego State, UNLV, Wyoming, or Utah. How anybody could think Beck would be better than Quinn is beyond me. I could of course be wrong, but that remains to be seen. All signs at this point point to Beck being the wrong decision, and I don't think I've seen draft analysts universally say a team made such a poor decision since Minnesota forgot how to pick a few years ago.

I'm a certified sports nut, not an NFL front office man, so I always allow for the fact that I may not actually know what I'm talking about. However, in most cases, hardcore fans have a pretty good idea of what's going on. Miami does deserve, at least, the benefit of the doubt - even after the pathetic debacle that was Saban. I hope they go 14-2 and win the Super Bowl with all of my aforementioned concerns being completely wrong. I just don't, realistically, see that happening.
 
flintsilver7: "I'm a certified sports nut, not an NFL front office man, so I always allow for the fact that I may not actually know what I'm talking about".

I can buy that.....
 
Actually, the reason why this thread WON'T be a popular one or get many replies is that nobody wants to take an hour to sit and read your EPIC DISSERTATION on whatever thoughts you have.
I look at your post and I say "wheww... I ain't reading all that crap" no matter how good your points might be or not be.

Suggestion for the future" Keep your thoughts brief. They'll get read that way! :bighug:
 
So then they get to John Beck. According to the geniuses who make the decisions, they had Beck rated higher than Quinn. They thought Beck had better accuracy. Both are four-year starters. Both have similar numbers. Quinn is three years younger, bigger, and did not have the luxury of playing Tulsa, San Diego State, UNLV, Wyoming, or Utah. How anybody could think Beck would be better than Quinn is beyond me. I could of course be wrong, but that remains to be seen. All signs at this point point to Beck being the wrong decision, and I don't think I've seen draft analysts universally say a team made such a poor decision since Minnesota forgot how to pick a few years ago.

Just for devil's advocate sake. Brady Quinn also played teams like Army and Navy just for quick reference. Comparing schedules will get you nowhere fast. Quinn is younger, yes, but also more erratic, easily disruptable, and for the good teams he DID play (Michigan, LSU, USC) he lost every time. BYU (Beck) vs. Notre Dame (Quinn) and Beck came out on top. So...there is my time for devil's advocate.
 
Just for devil's advocate sake. Brady Quinn also played teams like Army and Navy just for quick reference. Comparing schedules will get you nowhere fast. Quinn is younger, yes, but also more erratic, easily disruptable, and for the good teams he DID play (Michigan, LSU, USC) he lost every time. BYU (Beck) vs. Notre Dame (Quinn) and Beck came out on top. So...there is my time for devil's advocate.

That's true. I think, though, that Quinn did not show a particular tendency to rack up stats against weaker teams. I mean, most quarterbacks do - they are expected to play well against poor teams - but you want a player to play well in all games. Two of Quinn's bad games - Michigan and LSU - were not awful. Also, in both of those games, Notre Dame's defense was abused (47 against Michigan and 41 against LSU). He played well against USC, Penn State, Michigan State, Purdue, and UCLA.
 
Threads critisizing the team dont get 1 stars, threads that are critisizing the team and are bad get 1 stars.

flintsilver7 said:
People complained about James and McIntosh all the time. That doesn't change the fact that they were actually pretty good at what they did.

And what was that? Collapsing for the most part? McIntosh was average at best who looked godawful without Houck and I wager will continue to do so, and Jeno James was absolutely terrible this season.

flintsilver7 said:
Also, history shows that an average offensive line playing together for a length of time will almost automatically improve, while shuffling an offensive line is usually a recipe for disaster.

No, not true. Offensive lines generally get better because of stability, true. But stability is a factor of having talented OL. There is no reason to keep it stable if we dont have the players to compete.

flintsilver7 said:
Cameron goes and announces that Carey will enter training camp as the starting left tackle. Letting McIntosh walk was bad enough. Now we've got Carey at LT, when it is pretty clear that the guy is much better suited to play RT.

Pretty clear? From what? He played in training camp, and rotated in on the field early in the season. Saban said the reason why Carey didnt move to LT was because Saban wanted the best 5 on the field. McIntosh, who was originally brought in to be a RT couldnt switch sides, and Carey could.

flintsilver7 said:
I'm a huge believer that wide receivers and tight ends can't succeed without a decent quarterback -

Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Alge Crumpler, Kellen Winslow Jr. etc. and so on would all words with you.

flintsilver7 said:
Ted Ginn, assuming he is actually healthy enough to play (having hurt himself doing an endzone celebration),

flintsilver7 said:
However, he's not a good receiver.

That's not true. He had 50 catches for 800 yards his last two seasons, that's pretty good considering his offense.

He didnt hurt himself. His teammates did.

flintsilver7 said:
he's way too small to play in the NFL like that.

Marvin Harrison and Steve Smith and Santana Moss and etc. and so on would all like words with you.

flintsilver7 said:
1) bad hands and 2) bad route running.

Not true. He doesnt have amazing hands, and his route running is relatively unpolished for a top 10 pick WR.

flintsilver7 said:
Quinn is three years younger, bigger, and did not have the luxury of playing Tulsa, San Diego State, UNLV, Wyoming, or Utah.

Age is pretty irrelevant for a position that can play into the late 30's. Bigger? Oh my. Why would you knock Beck playing some less than stellar teams when not only did Quinn play teams like Army and Navy, he choked when facing top talent.

flintsilver7 said:
I don't think I've seen draft analysts universally say a team made such a poor decision since Minnesota forgot how to pick a few years ago.

I dont think you understand that day-after analysis of a draft really ends up meaning nothing in the wrong run, and the fact that there wasnt universally bad reviews. Pro Football Weekly gave the Dolphins draft an A+ for example.
 
I can see Flintsilvers point, but only to a point. Ginn can be a good reciever and I have no doubt that he will work to become one. He obviously brings instant danger to opposing teams on KR/PR. Will he be on the field is another story that people just ignore and pretend. Even this coaching staff is pretending about the risk involved with this pick.

On the other hand, if we score long term with this guy and he stays healthy, then yes, this offense will change overnight minus the same ol musical chairs at OL and LT. Ginn was a reach due to injury to his foot (ligaments) ouch. But he enabled us to get a potentially better QB in Beck and I feel very good about the rest of our draft because special teams should be well....special, that is if the punter comes through for us. Chambers will get open more if playing in the slot due to Ginn. Chambers attitude might change with "little brother" by his side.

I dont want to tell Mueller and Cam they were wrong in taking Ginn, I just will hope and pray that Ginn stays healthy for all our sakes, not just management.
 
And what was that? Collapsing for the most part? McIntosh was average at best who looked godawful without Houck and I wager will continue to do so, and Jeno James was absolutely terrible this season.

McIntosh was good. You don't need to look at his numbers for the last two seasons (which were very good) - look no further than the fact that perhaps the best evaluator of offensive line talent in the NFL, Kansas City, signed him to fill a hole on their line.

No, not true. Offensive lines generally get better because of stability, true. But stability is a factor of having talented OL. There is no reason to keep it stable if we dont have the players to compete.

We do. No, that's wrong - we did.

Pretty clear? From what? He played in training camp, and rotated in on the field early in the season. Saban said the reason why Carey didnt move to LT was because Saban wanted the best 5 on the field. McIntosh, who was originally brought in to be a RT couldnt switch sides, and Carey could.

First of all, Carey played guard his senior year. The gamble with him was that he could play tackle, as he had during his career to that point. It wasn't until the last season and a half that Carey particularly improved. The reasons why they moved are not clear, but I can tell you that Carey was almost without a doubt our best offensive lineman last year. I can't see any reason why you would switch that, because the two positions are fundamentally different.

Todd Heap, Jeremy Shockey, Alge Crumpler, Kellen Winslow Jr. etc. and so on would all words with you.

Of those guys, only Kellen Winslow had a particularly outstanding season with a below-average quarterback. The other guys' performance tends to follow their quarterbacks, and for the most part their numbers aren't much better than McMichael's. According to Football Outsiders, anyway, McMichael's been a pretty good tight end for years.

That's not true. He had 50 catches for 800 yards his last two seasons, that's pretty good considering his offense.

You mean considering he was on one of the best teams in the country with the Heisman Trophy winner throwing him the ball?

He didnt hurt himself. His teammates did.

You're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Marvin Harrison and Steve Smith and Santana Moss and etc. and so on would all like words with you.

While it's cute that you take three of the best receivers in the league and point them out as examples, all three of those guys are at least 10 pounds heavier than Ginn. In reality, Ginn's size, speed, and relative ability makes him a much closer match to Dante Hall than any of those guys.

Not true. He doesnt have amazing hands, and his route running is relatively unpolished for a top 10 pick WR.

How exactly is that different from what I said?

Age is pretty irrelevant for a position that can play into the late 30's. Bigger? Oh my. Why would you knock Beck playing some less than stellar teams when not only did Quinn play teams like Army and Navy, he choked when facing top talent.

Also incorrect. I already pointed that out.

I dont think you understand that day-after analysis of a draft really ends up meaning nothing in the wrong run, and the fact that there wasnt universally bad reviews. Pro Football Weekly gave the Dolphins draft an A+ for example.

Good for them.
 
First, I understand this will be a one-star thread for certain. If I've learned anything about Finheaven in the past three years, it's that there are legions of fans who will swallow hook, line, and sinker any move the management makes. It doesn't matter that moves (in either direction) like Gus Frerotte, Daunte Culpepper, Stockar McDougle, L.J. Shelton, Ricky Williams, Joey Harrington, Patrick Surtain, Sam Madison, and so on were made. Some turned out OK - the pass defense, while not nearly as good as with Surtain and Madison, is still pretty good. Some (all of the quarterback moves) have so far been unmitigated disasters.

Now, I haven't been at all sold on Cameron. I had thought at first that after Saban, anybody would be an upgrade. Then Cameron started talking. He started talking about being pass-happy. I, for one, hope that his actual numbers on executed plays in San Diego are more indicative of what we will do than what Cameron said.

The main problem entering this draft was the fact that the offensive line was going to have a brand new left side. People complained about James and McIntosh all the time. That doesn't change the fact that they were actually pretty good at what they did. Also, history shows that an average offensive line playing together for a length of time will almost automatically improve, while shuffling an offensive line is usually a recipe for disaster. Last year, the line started out poorly, but improved almost immediately when it was changed back (at least as much as possible) to the 2005 version. This year, Cameron goes and announces that Carey will enter training camp as the starting left tackle. Letting McIntosh walk was bad enough. Now we've got Carey at LT, when it is pretty clear that the guy is much better suited to play RT. So we're currently sitting with a minimum of three positions changed from last year (including both tackles). That'll be a wonderful combination for a guy who's known to hold on to the ball too long (who as far as I know is currently our starting quarterback).

Of course, there is the question of Trent Green. We've already tried burning a second-round pick on a guy who wasn't a starter. We cast him into the fire and gave him one chance to prove himself - on a team with the worst offensive line in NFL history and no running game - and then promptly discarded for not succeeding where Jesus probably couldn't have. We've tried burning a second-round pick on a guy who may never be healthy enough to play an NFL game again. He doesn't look like it to this point, and it's been a whole season. Now I guess we'll try on a 37 year old quarterback. Who knows? Maybe the third time's a charm. Makes more sense to take a shot at a franchise quarterback than a two-year stopgap, but what do I know?

And what about Randy McMichael? We'll see the effect on that. I'm a huge believer that wide receivers and tight ends can't succeed without a decent quarterback - something we haven't had. It's clear from his time in the NFL that McMichael has incredible talent but has never been consistent. Personally, I think it would've made more sense to keep a guy like that and try to get him somebody to throw him the ball.

The draft makes very little sense to me. My father and I were shocked when they announced Ted Ginn. Not only was Ginn a reach at that point, WR is among Miami's positions of least need. Ted Ginn, assuming he is actually healthy enough to play (having hurt himself doing an endzone celebration), is a good returner. However, he's not a good receiver. He doesn't have good hands, and he's way too small to play in the NFL like that. Ginn's known weaknesses, aside from his total lack of size, are his 1) bad hands and 2) bad route running. Great pick for a receiver, huh? Who the hell takes a special teams man with the 9th pick? Well, not that it matters now. People complain about Chambers left and right, but Ginn has a lot of the same drawbacks of Chambers. He's faster, but everything else makes him worse - and Chambers wasn't a #9 pick either.

So then they get to John Beck. According to the geniuses who make the decisions, they had Beck rated higher than Quinn. They thought Beck had better accuracy. Both are four-year starters. Both have similar numbers. Quinn is three years younger, bigger, and did not have the luxury of playing Tulsa, San Diego State, UNLV, Wyoming, or Utah. How anybody could think Beck would be better than Quinn is beyond me. I could of course be wrong, but that remains to be seen. All signs at this point point to Beck being the wrong decision, and I don't think I've seen draft analysts universally say a team made such a poor decision since Minnesota forgot how to pick a few years ago.

I'm a certified sports nut, not an NFL front office man, so I always allow for the fact that I may not actually know what I'm talking about. However, in most cases, hardcore fans have a pretty good idea of what's going on. Miami does deserve, at least, the benefit of the doubt - even after the pathetic debacle that was Saban. I hope they go 14-2 and win the Super Bowl with all of my aforementioned concerns being completely wrong. I just don't, realistically, see that happening.

No offense, but your logic is weak. Beck, by all accounts, is more accurate than Quinn, by far. Because Beck, more often than Quinn, gets the ball to where it's supposed to go. And the consensus seems to be that that is the case, not because Quinn faced better pass rushers, DB's, etc., but simply because he was more accurate. The ball got there. End of story. Then, you can add on velocity, touch, etc., and I'm not crying that we passed on Quinn in favor of Beck. I'm happy about it.
 
Both have similar numbers. Quinn is three years younger, bigger, and did not have the luxury of playing Tulsa, San Diego State, UNLV, Wyoming, or Utah. How anybody could think Beck would be better than Quinn is beyond me. .
No they didn't have similar numbers.. Beck, despite going downfield alot more than Quinn (Beck had riskier throws) , Beck still had a much higher completion % .. Almost 10% is alot.. And Beck didn't have the luxury of a 1st round receiver who would have went there, but opted for baseball.. Secondly, Notre Dame plays Army, Navy, as well as Air Force and more crap teams .. Weak sisters there.. Notre Dame and BYU played common opponents, and I watched those games on tape.. And Beck was clearly a better QB , (and more composed, more efficient, smarter etc) than Quinn against those common opponents and same defenses ..
 
Flint...take a Prozac for that depression you have...

I've been reading this board for a long time too...a couple of yrs before I actually joined. EVERY move the Fins have made in that time is chastised/praised. For every thread of "Atta boy, JJ/Speilman/Wanny/Saban/Cam-Mul" there is an " Aww ****" thread for EVERY move ever made...that's what fans on these boards do....

Cam has never been described as "pass happy" that I've seen. He's an OC and has led arguably the best offensive attack over the previous 3-4 yrs in SD and with his WRs, you couldn't have mistaken him for pass happy. In fact, he runs the same offense we've been used to. Its the base Coryell/Gilbride/Zampese/Turner/Linehan/Martz/Vermeil offense...The only difference in the base offenses is how the plays are called. Turner was a little more conservative than the rest in his calls and Cam tends to lean that way too.

The OL wasn't getting the job done. Yes they were better after the shuffle in game 6, but nothing special. Big Mac was adequate at LT at best. There were going to be 3 changes in the lineup anyways...(LT, LG, C)...now we may get to use Hadnot at G, where he's more suited. Carey was drafted as a LT. It was his best position at the U. His problem has always been not that he wasn't able to transition, but he takes a while longer than most to learn the nuances of the new position. He has the ability. He has been good at the RT spot. We have to face that there are going to be changes to the line, because it just hasn't been good, not because they like to make changes.

If Green is finally brought in here, it probably won't be for a day one pick and with his intimate knowledge of the offense, we can wait out his being cut. It probably will happen. They won't carry two starting QB salaries. But, to me, this situation speaks volumes as to where they think CPep is. If they were worried that he couldn't be ready, they'd have made the move. I don't think they want to throw Beck to the wolves just yet. The worst thing would not be for CPep to be able to play this year and allow Beck to learn the position better, even if the Green move never happens. CPep, for all the bashing he gets here is not a bad QB and has proven he can play in the league. Whether or not he 'fits' into what Cam likes in QBs has to be questioned. But he can still play, if healthy, of course. At least if we get a year out of him, it'll be more than what we got from the other QB moves in the past.

David Martin for all his injuries is pretty similar to McMike and McMike was, as you said, nothing special for us. I wish him well, but he certainly was a disappointment to us.

Ted Ginn is NOT just a STer and even if that all he does this season, it'll be special teaming like you've never seen here before....If you 'youtube' Ginns highlights you can see that he is a game-breaker whenever he gets his hands on the ball. Keep in mind that one thing that Cam's known for is adapting his schemes and play calling to best fit his players. If he can highlight Ginn like he did Gates in SD, we'll have something very, very special here. All WRs coming into the league have the question of 'whether they can beat press coverage in the pros' attached to them. That was obviously Hagan's biggest problem last year. But the thing with Ginn is that on those few occasions that he does slip by the coverage, he's got a better chance to make something special happen. I don't like to compare players, but he reminds me of Warfield. Now that's a tall order, but Warfield was a man among boys as an athlete in the early 70's. He was faster, quicker, and could change directions without losing any speed. That's what you see with Ginn. Don't bash me for comparing this guy before he's even on the field, I'm just going by what I see on his game films versus what I saw in the 70's. He's not a Warfield yet, but he has those qualities...he still has to make it happen. As to his size, he's the same height as CC. He plays bigger than he is and he's not as small as some make him sound. His frame is thin, but he has long legs and arms. Joe Rose commented this am on the radio that when he saw him up close that he's not slight-of-build like he's being reported... His route running has never been a question. I don't know where that came from. In the OSU scheme, he was utilized within the framework of two other pretty good receivers. He was asked to do certain things, and did them well. The base offense only had him running 3-4 routes, but he scored some 24 times in 31 starts ?? (16 recpts, 8 returns). Bad hands and bad routes...I don't think so...

Beck is an interesting pick to me. I felt he was the 3rd QB in the draft. I was shocked, as everyone was that we didn't take Quinn, but I wasn't sold on Quinn until the last week when things started to point towards him falling to us. I did feel that we'd take him since he fell...But back to Beck, what's intriguing to me is the intangibles. He's got the smarts and decent size (certainly not Palmer, Marino or Favre size), but he can physically do the job at this level. What I didn't know about him was what he's shown since being picked. He is humble and unassuming, yet confident in his abilities. He just has something that speaks to you of his potential to be a good QB in this league.

In fact, if there is a QB to compare him to, style-wise and strength's-wise, it would be Trent Green. In the tapes/clips I've seen he reminds me a lot of Green. He's deceptively mobile in the pocket, able to buy himself time, and is as accurate as you could want a QB to be. He can make all the throws. One thing I did notice (and I was admittedly looking at mostly highlights, only one entire game), but what I did notice was that he never under threw the deep balls. Whether that is a testament to slow receivers or not, I can't tell you. Although Harline has good speed. How many times have we seen you-insert-the-Fins-QB name under throw a wide open receiver ??? At any rate, he may just be a solid QB, better than what we've seen since the day the music died...(Marino retired).

I just think, however naive, that we will see a differently better team this coming year. At the very least, I don't think we'll lose games because the offense can't score and the D won't be asked to hold on for dear life as the opposing team has the ball for the last 6 minutes of the game, give the ball back to O with 1:37 left and they tank.....
 
LarryFin, i agree with the Trent Green-Beck comparison.. They do look similar.. At first, Beck reminded me of Brad Johnson but a little more nimble and niftier than Johnson. .. I think Beck will be a cross between the two ..
 
Like all of I was stunned when the Dolphins passed on Quinn. As a matter of fact it wrecked the whole day. I had been hoping for the last two years that he would be a Dolphin. Since then I have read a bunch of stuff on Beck and all I can say is that those who are bad-mouthing him don't know much about him. All the arcticles say accurate, accurate, accurate. And he has an arm. And he's a good, solid kid. I am excited for training camp to start. I just wish I could be there to see it. With no confirmed starter he should get a lot of reps. I really want to see how he does and I want him to succeed as we all do. I believe he has a much better chance to do that than most people still think. I hope a lot of you get a chance to watch training camp. I have this feeling that he is going to give a lot of people something that Fin fans haven't had a lot of this century, real hope.
 
While it's cute that you take three of the best receivers in the league and point them out as examples, all three of those guys are at least 10 pounds heavier than Ginn. In reality, Ginn's size, speed, and relative ability makes him a much closer match to Dante Hall than any of those guys.

1. Ginn is 3 inches taller than Hall.

2. Ginn has much bigger hands (than Hall), so Ginn has more to work with in terms of being a good pass catching WR.

3. Steve Smith and Marvin Harrison have 5 pounds on Ginn, nice try though. Most players add some mass after entering the NFL.
 
all this questioning and doubt because we didnt pick everyones man crush...

we've had a very good offseason and now a very good draft...

poor argument against the FO

Now, I haven't been at all sold on Cameron. I had thought at first that after Saban, anybody would be an upgrade. Then Cameron started talking. He started talking about being pass-happy. I, for one, hope that his actual numbers on executed plays in San Diego are more indicative of what we will do than what Cameron said.
Umm, SD threw the ball more than 60 % of the time last year... so watchu talkin bout willis ?
 
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