The QB.

[Fish-Head]

I thought it was an interesting time to begin a little discussion on the position itself since we have such an interesting situation in our camp. We have Penny the smart accurate guy... We have Henne the rocket armed gunslinger and now we have White the elusive scrambler... It is interesting because we have three different guys who excel at 3 different styles! Henne v Penny v White really boils down to Velocity v Accuracy v Mobility. If we were looking at 3 vets who were equal... You're the Phins coach. Which is the better option IYO? How would you build your offense?

Personally I don't favor the mobile guy... I think Marino showed us specifically that pocket presence and awareness can buy as much time as scrambling... Using mobility as a dimension or a weapon really translates into punishment on your QB... He is gonna get hit and most likely inevitably injured. So a White or a Vick is my last choice as a starter... the wildcat is different IMO...

The early obvious choice would be the 'Henne' type. Hard throwing rhythm style QB... Stands tough in the pocket and can make all the throws keeping defenses off balance. A big arm that can chew up large chunks of real estate... But IMO... This 'stretching the field' argument is only valid... to a point.

The fact is, at the beginning of drives when we are pinned in our own zone and the field is long... 'stretching the field' does offer a crucial dimension and a nice advantage. Making Defenses respect all that space behind them always translates into softer schemes... BUT THIS CHANGES AS THE FIELD GETS SHORTER.

When we cross midfield this advantage shrinks exponentially as the field shrinks until we hit the 30... and it is gone completely. When you pass this mark defenses no longer fret the long ball and they can press all they want... It is at this point that accuracy trumps velocity. EVERY TIME. IMO.

Also a long ball is much more forgiveable as Receivers can make adjustments when it is in the air... Throwing underneath or in the red zone... That needs to be ON THE MONEY. Keeping in mind a 'quick strike' is not necessarily a good thing as it does not take much time off the clock... Ball control offenses who grind it out and tire defenses may not be sexy but they are effective...

Then there is the 2 minute drill when you need to go a long way in a short time... Though this would seem an obvious advantage for the guy with the live arm... The 'prevent' style defenses ensure that even the underneath stuff is getting 20 yards... Again not that HUGE an advantage IMO...

of the 3 distinct styles... I go accuracy. JMO. I go with the old adage... "make the most of your opportunities"... I want the guy who is money in the red zone.

Obviously I want both... A live accurate arm on a smart cool under pressure guy... But that is alot to ask for... And we should know since we had one in number 13 all those years... So what would you do???

 

[NBP81]

Well for all we know right now, Pat White is the guy thats wins games. He's also the youngest and best all around FOOTBALL player so he's the guy I build my team around.

 

[Orlando Fan]

For me I would want someone who is accurate and a great field general. If you can get the ball downfield 30-40 yards accurately you don't need a rocket for a arm. Putting the ball on the money makes it easier for the recievers as well, do it right they don't break stride. Marino was both accurate and a rocket for a arm, rare talent that comes around once a decade or so. thats why he owns most passing records still.
Current examples of all 3 types:
Mobile: Vick when he was with Atlanta or Young with Titans
Gunner: Brees or Cutler
Accurate, Brady or Pennington

 

[marinotoclayton]

Sorry NBP but to kind of hard to call Pat White youngest best all around player when he hasn't done squat in pros. He might have had some arguements for that status in college but in pros way to many other good players that could fit that bill.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Henne will need to be accurate to succeed. That's a given.

But, the importance of a strong-armed QB does not diminish as the field shrinks. You need a strong-armed QB to complete outs and to get the ball into tight windows.

 

[NBP81]

Your example is kinda biased IMO... You list the worst mobile QBs while you list the best in the game in the area you chose in the beggining...

Mobile QBs: Steve Young, Randall Cunningham, Steve McMair, Doug Flutie.... and the list goes on...

 

[Fish-Head]

Well for all we know right now, Pat White is the guy thats wins games. He's also the youngest and best all around FOOTBALL player so he's the guy I build my team around.

I think as the spread offense seeps into the NFL, the obvious mismatches it creates for an offense also emphasizes the dangers of a mobile QB... But as of right now... where the spread (or the NFL version of it) is still experimental I would say that a more traditional accurate QB is my preferred weapon. I want points in the Red Zone... 6 not 3.

 

[Fish-Head]

Henne will need to be accurate to succeed. That's a given.

But, the importance of a strong-armed QB does not diminish as the field shrinks. You need a strong-armed QB to complete outs and to get the ball into tight windows.

The advantage of 'stretching the field' does. I will take the 'touch' passer in the red zone every time... But that's just me. :thumbup: Putting the ball where ONLY your guy can make a play is a question of accuracy.

 

[MDFINFAN]

I thought it was an interesting time to begin a little discussion on the position itself since we have such an interesting situation in our camp. We have Penny the smart accurate guy... We have Henne the rocket armed gunslinger and now we have White the elusive scrambler... It is interesting because we have three different guys who excel at 3 different styles! Henne v Penny v White really boils down to Velocity v Accuracy v Mobility. If we were looking at 3 vets who were equal... You're the Phins coach. Which is the better option IYO? How would you build your offense?



Obviously I want both... A live accurate arm on a smart cool under pressure guy... But that is alot to ask for... And we should know since we had one in number 13 all those years... So what would you do???

Your argument makes me think Pat White, who can throw deep, middle and short.. the Guy hit 64% of his throws in college for over 6000 yards, Stafford, the #1 pick only threw for a 1000 yards more in college.. plus white added over 4000 yards in runs..wow.. if he was 6'3-4, he'd probably been the number 1 pick. In other words he has all 3 items you mentioned within one.. he has a good arm, accuracy and moblie 3 in 1..but he doesn't have height, exp. in the NFL and learning a new O..so he's behind mentally on our team in terms of experience, knowledge and reps...but as we've heard, he's starting to turn the corner, I wouldn't count out someone like that.. or pigeon toe him to one element, mobile, he's more than that, especially after establishing himself as the best passer at the combine and senior bowl... ppl have a tenacy to over look his passing yards in college because of his rushing yards..but he threw for more yards than he ran.. Having said that, today, to build a team around, Henne is farther along and should be the starting point. but not because he's any more special than White, actually with White's mobility, he maybe more special..

With your scenario, I look at the football field this way, if we're on our side of the 50, then we should play Henne, once we get on the other side, we play pennington, and if we get within 10 yards we put in White for added capability within the redzone..since he's a double threat there..

 

[DolfanDuBbZ~]

For me I would want someone who is accurate and a great field general. If you can get the ball downfield 30-40 yards accurately you don't need a rocket for a arm. Putting the ball on the money makes it easier for the recievers as well, do it right they don't break stride. Marino was both accurate and a rocket for a arm, rare talent that comes around once a decade or so. thats why he owns most passing records still.
Current examples of all 3 types:
Mobile: Vick when he was with Atlanta or Young with Titans
Gunner: Brees or Cutler
Accurate, Brady or Pennington

I think you need the arm to fit the ball into tight windows downfield. Something Penny couldn't do when it counted.

Watch the NE preseason game? Brady w/ or w/o the injury is still a notch above anything Penny can do. Brady was making throws in that game I can only wish Penny could do.

 

[Fish-Head]

Your argument makes me think Pat White, who can throw deep, middle and short.. the Guy hit 64% of his throws in college for over 6000 yards, Stafford, the #1 pick only threw for a 1000 yards more in college.. plus white added over 4000 yards in runs..wow.. if he was 6'3-4, he'd probably been the number 1 pick. In other words he has all 3 items you mentioned within one.. he has a good arm, accuracy and moblie 3 in 1..but he doesn't have height, exp. in the NFL and learning a new O..so he's behind mentally on our team in terms of experience, knowledge and reps...but as we've heard, he's starting to turn the corner, I wouldn't count out someone like that.. or pigeon toe him to one element, mobile, he's more than that, especially after establishing himself as the best passer at the combine and senior bowl... ppl have a tenacy to over look his passing yards in college because of his rushing yards..but he threw for more yards than he ran.. Having said that, today, to build a team around, Henne is farther along and should be the starting point. but not because he's any more special than White, actually with White's mobility, he maybe more special..

With your scenario, I look at the football field this way, if we're on our side of the 50, then we should play Henne, once we get on the other side, we play pennington, and if we get within 10 yards we put in White for added capability within the redzone..since he's a double threat there..

If he turns about to be all that I agree wholeheartedly!!!

Actually my old coach used to have a theory that a QB sprint out inside the 10 is the single indefensible play in the book... They come up to stop the run... you throw it behind them... They move back to stop the pass you run it in... Mobility is the key there... and the truth is our QB pulled it off almost every time.

But if I had to make a decision based on a style to build around I would do it with accuracy... Mobility without accuracy is only a 'dimension'... Strong arm without accuracy is limited... It all begins with accuracy IMO... EVERYTHING else is secondary.

 

[Fish-Head]

I think you need the arm to fit the ball into tight windows downfield. Something Penny couldn't do when it counted.

Watch the NE preseason game? Brady w/ or w/o the injury is still a notch above anything Penny can do. Brady was making throws in that game I can only wish Penny could do.

but of the 3 distinct styles what would you build your offense around? Would you take a strong armed guy in order to take advantage of that quick strike dimension? or would you build around a mobile "make something out of nothing" type... or would you play inside 20 yards of the line of scrimmage and grind it out..?

 

[DolfanDuBbZ~]

but of the 3 distinct styles what would you build your offense around? Would you take a strong armed guy in order to take advantage of that quick strike dimension? or would you build around a mobile "make something out of nothing" type... or would you play inside 20 yards of the line of scrimmage and grind it out..?

Well accuracy and arm strength are the key. If you don't have both your limited as a qb. Both Mannings, Big Ben and Brady all have the winning combo as far as skill set. A player w/o arm strength is a limited qb imo, no matter how accurate he may be. All the accuracy in the world couldn't help Penny against a TOP tier Def.
As for mobility...the qb's i listed the only one you could call somewhat mobile would be Big Ben...and being as big as he is, he sure makes it look good. The reason I use the qb's above for example...is simple they win. You could even throw in Warner, not great arm strength, but good enough and very accurate.

 

[Captain Lou]

I thought it was an interesting time to begin a little discussion on the position itself since we have such an interesting situation in our camp. We have Penny the smart accurate guy... We have Henne the rocket armed gunslinger and now we have White the elusive scrambler... It is interesting because we have three different guys who excel at 3 different styles! Henne v Penny v White really boils down to Velocity v Accuracy v Mobility. If we were looking at 3 vets who were equal... You're the Phins coach. Which is the better option IYO? How would you build your offense?

Personally I don't favor the mobile guy... I think Marino showed us specifically that pocket presence and awareness can buy as much time as scrambling... Using mobility as a dimension or a weapon really translates into punishment on your QB... He is gonna get hit and most likely inevitably injured. So a White or a Vick is my last choice as a starter... the wildcat is different IMO...

The early obvious choice would be the 'Henne' type. Hard throwing rhythm style QB... Stands tough in the pocket and can make all the throws keeping defenses off balance. A big arm that can chew up large chunks of real estate... But IMO... This 'stretching the field' argument is only valid... to a point.

The fact is, at the beginning of drives when we are pinned in our own zone and the field is long... 'stretching the field' does offer a crucial dimension and a nice advantage. Making Defenses respect all that space behind them always translates into softer schemes... BUT THIS CHANGES AS THE FIELD GETS SHORTER.

When we cross midfield this advantage shrinks exponentially as the field shrinks until we hit the 30... and it is gone completely. When you pass this mark defenses no longer fret the long ball and they can press all they want... It is at this point that accuracy trumps velocity. EVERY TIME. IMO.

Also a long ball is much more forgiveable as Receivers can make adjustments when it is in the air... Throwing underneath or in the red zone... That needs to be ON THE MONEY. Keeping in mind a 'quick strike' is not necessarily a good thing as it does not take much time off the clock... Ball control offenses who grind it out and tire defenses may not be sexy but they are effective...

Then there is the 2 minute drill when you need to go a long way in a short time... Though this would seem an obvious advantage for the guy with the live arm... The 'prevent' style defenses ensure that even the underneath stuff is getting 20 yards... Again not that HUGE an advantage IMO...

of the 3 distinct styles... I go accuracy. JMO. I go with the old adage... "make the most of your opportunities"... I want the guy who is money in the red zone.

Obviously I want both... A live accurate arm on a smart cool under pressure guy... But that is alot to ask for... And we should know since we had one in number 13 all those years... So what would you do???

How did Henne get a reputation as a Gunslinger. He has 5 career 300 yards games as 4 year starter in college. His numbers also declined every year after his freshman year.

 

[Fish-Head]

How did Henne get a reputation as a Gunslinger. He has 5 career 300 yards games as 4 year starter in college. His numbers also declined every year after his freshman year.

Fair enough... I generalized in terms of the style of play... he does have a strong arm so I probably used the term a little loosely... But your thoughts??