They key ingredient to playing a 3-4!!!

[Sal Lisitano]

Well, we need a BIG nose tackle for the Fins to play a 3-4. Tractor Traylor might come back but he can't play every down...we need a younger nose tackle.

I really think that Parcels wants to play a 3-4...I also believe that most of our coaches want to play a 3-4...now we need to get a nose tackle. If the Lions release Rogers we should be all over that...maybe the Lions would take a low round draft pick for him...I don't know.

In your opinion...who do you think can play better in a 3-4...Dorsey or Ellis. Rumors out there say that Ellis is better in the 3-4.

I think in the end we get Rogers from the Lions but he does come with some baggage.

Who was the Cowboys nose tackle in the 3-4...it can't be anyone too BIG because I can't remember who it is.

I hope they get the personnel to play the 3-4.

Go Fins!!!

 

[ZOD]

Who is playing the two DE spots in your equation?

.........and who are the backups?

 

[Sal Lisitano]

with what we have now...it would have to be Holliday, Roth...and when Taylor isn't playing up as the LB he can take Roth's position on the line. Porter should be coming off the end as the rushing LB most of the time. The backups should be Fifta and Wright.

 

[Geforce]

Depending on what type of 3-4 you are running, you don't need a BIG NT. The Cowboys' Jason Ferguson is 6'3" 312 and Jay Ratliff is 6'4 298.

If the new coaches can light a fire under Soliai and get him to use his hands better, he might be the NT we are looking for.

 

[Sal Lisitano]

if we get Rogers...I could see us drafting DE C. Long out of Virginia assuming we don't trade our pick. I really think that if we can't trade our #1 pick...Long is the player we should draft...I feel that he will be perfect as the DE in a 3-4. If we don't pick up a big nose tackle in free agency and we still can't trade the #1 pick...I think we'll draft Ellis out of USC.

 

[ZOD]

Let us skip over the warm and fuzzy stuff. I'm going to post some statements from a similar thread about the 34. Throw the names you want in whatever the position. Then answer the last set of questioning...

Please go read this thread so this 34 question will die it's natural course.

http://www.dolphinsnation.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1062254058#post1062254058

Was this the question?

jason taylor - zach thomas - channing crowder - joey porter
-----glenn dorsey - - vonnie holliday - - matt roth------

First things first: If you placed Vonnie Holliday down in front of a center, the center would eat him alive. That goes for Glenn Dorsey and Matt Roth too. None of the above are nose tackles.

On the playside, the uncovered guard would not even "chip" Vonnie Holliday. He would be in Zach Thomas' face before the ball was ever handed off.

Channing Crowder has too much youth and athletism too play inside. He is an outside linebacker.

Who can Jason Taylor cover? He can't cover the worst tight ends in this league. He certainly cannot cover the worst number 3 receiver on any NFL squad. So every time you want to ask about a 34 defense, answer yourself this question first. Who can he cover? The sad fact is that Joey Porter can barely cover tight ends in this league. You propose to place Jason Taylor in coverage?

The problem here is what every fans problem seems to be. They say things without thinking them through. The "Dom Capers must go" chant was absolute stupidity this year. He had nothing to work with. He had nothing in terms of personel to vary the front.

There is only one team capable of running a 34 down after down. The defense you are choosing to call hybrid is not hybrid at all. It is 43 personel when you see a 43. It is 34 personel when you see a 34. There is no hybrid. And I might add that what you think is a 34 is usually still a 43 with one personel substition at the WILL or SAM position just to throw the quarterback's read for a loop.

Ty Warren 6'5" 300lb
Vince Wilfork 6'2" 325lb (yeah right)
Richard Seymour 6'6" 310 lb

Do not be mistaken. This is THREE first round draft picks attained in a 6 year span. You do not attain that kind of size and talent overnight and you do not go to THREE DOWN LINEMEN just because you seek to change a front.

This thread is dumb!

actually you can dorsey is one of the most talented defensive tackle to come out and the Fact that he is quick means he can be moved around at DE/DT. dont forget we have paul solilai.

DE: Dorsey NT: Paul Solilai(344lbs ?) DE: Rod Wright(just as good as holiday).

So now you have a suspect defensive line doing things that they have never done before. Let's say they are servicable in the role though.........

You also have one of the best pass rushers in the history of the NFL standing up, possibly covering Wes Welker.

You also have Joey Porter covering Ben Watson.

If you do not have Taylor in coverage, you have him on the bench. If you do not have Porter in coverage, you have him on the bench. On any given down, the offense can make you put them on the bench. Now YOU can be called a fool for having your best players on the bench.

You also have an outside linebacker (Crowder) playing inside linebacker.

You also have a small linebacker on his last legs playing inside linebacker.

Does this provide any clarity? Or do you honestly think this is a good plan to head into 2008?

 

[Etuoo33]

We have to see about Soliai, BP will figure this one out, then I think moving Wright to DE may also pan out. I wouldn't be suprised if we drafted C. Long, providing we can't find a trade partner,or trade in the top 3. That might be our line but then we need linebackers. As I see it we have Zach and Porter, with Crowder, Spragen, and Pope as a special teamers. It might take two years to aquire the people to run a 3-4.

 

[dolpns13]

Well, we need a BIG nose tackle for the Fins to play a 3-4. Tractor Traylor might come back but he can't play every down...we need a younger nose tackle.

I really think that Parcels wants to play a 3-4...I also believe that most of our coaches want to play a 3-4...now we need to get a nose tackle. If the Lions release Rogers we should be all over that...maybe the Lions would take a low round draft pick for him...I don't know.

In your opinion...who do you think can play better in a 3-4...Dorsey or Ellis. Rumors out there say that Ellis is better in the 3-4.

I think in the end we get Rogers from the Lions but he does come with some baggage.

Who was the Cowboys nose tackle in the 3-4...it can't be anyone too BIG because I can't remember who it is.

I hope they get the personnel to play the 3-4.

Go Fins!!!

After last years debacle, I definately DO NOT see him coming anywhere near the Dolphins. I think about a 99% chance he retires. I mean he had to be talked into coming back for last season, then after eveything that happened, I dont think there is anything anyone can say to make him come back.

 

[chillwill3000]

Does anybody on our CURRENT roster fit this description? Or do we have to look into FA or the draft to find this type of guy?

3-4 NT is the toughest position to fill. The NT is head-up on the OC and is responsible for defending both A gaps in the running game. He faces constant double-teams and takes a pounding. He must have size, mental and physical toughness, stamina, durability, lateral quickness, and good technique in terms of playing with leverage. If the NT can not hold his ground, the defense is very vulnerable to runs between the tackles. The prototypical 3-4 NT is the Raiders' Ted Washington, who is a massive 6-5 365. Washington was the key to the Patriots win over the Panthers in the 2004 Super Bowl. Stephen Davis ran for a meager 19 yards on his first 9 carries, because Washington effectively stuffed the middle of the line. Other quality NTs include the Steelers' Casey Hampton (6-1 320) and the Chargers' Jamal Williams (6-2 348)

 

[Sal Lisitano]

Zod...I see your points and they are well made. I think you are right...we really don't have the personnel to run a 3-4 in this league. But if we acquire Shaun Rogers or draft Cedric Ellis do you think it will change the make up of the team to play the 3-4. Again...I believe that the best case senario would be to get Rogers from the Lions...hopefully he can stay out of trouble...then convince Keith Traylor to come back and let him be aware that he will not have to play a lot of downs since we have Rogers and he would just rotate in and out with him and maybe even play them together on certain downs sometimes. If we can do this and we can't trade out of the #1 spot...we draft Chris Long the DE out of Virgina.

Zod...how does this sound now assuming it happens and how would you set the defense up now with Rogers and Long in there? Again, it looks like we will have the same problem of who will go out in coverage? You stated that Porter and Taylor can't cover...who can cover a TE and slot WR from the Patriots personnel...Vrabel? I'm not so sure he's that good in coverage. Let me know of a LB who is good in coverage that plays in a 3-4? You might be putting a little to much into this...I think Porter and Taylor can do a servicable job covering. Any suggestions?

Go Fins!!!

 

[ZOD]

Zod...how does this sound now assuming it happens and how would you set the defense up now with Rogers and Long in there? Again, it looks like we will have the same problem of who will go out in coverage?

I do not make comments about prospective talent. I will say this about the quote above though. You have stumbled upon THE issue with the Dolphins and the 34. Let us get into it after your next comment.

You stated that Porter and Taylor can't cover...who can cover a TE and slot WR from the Patriots personnel...Vrabel? I'm not so sure he's that good in coverage. Let me know of a LB who is good in coverage that plays in a 3-4? You might be putting a little to much into this...I think Porter and Taylor can do a servicable job covering. Any suggestions?

The question you posed about Vrabel.... Have you noticed how much time Vrabel spends on the sideline? It's not an issue in New England. Nobody questions Belichek. And let us face the facts here - Vrabel is NO Jason Taylor. He is not even on par with the talent of Joey Porter. Watch the re-airs of Patriots games from 2007. You will see Vrabel on the sideline ALOT.

So you are asking about the 34 defense. You are asking about the Dolphins. It's simple math. Let's see how we match up against the AFC East.

3 receivers 1 TE and 1 back

Wes Welker
Randy Moss
Donte Stallworth
Ben Watson
Kevin Faulk

Brad Smith
Jericho Cotchery
Justin McCariens
Chris Baker
Leon Washington

Lee Evans
Roscoe Parish
Josh Reed
Robert Royal
Marshawn Lynch


This is what you propose to cover that group. This is what you suggested I may be making too big an issue.

                 FS                           
                                            SS


                   OLB                 OLB                 
C                                                           C

Now let us take YOUR proposal and place it in the most basic coverage. Let's first address it with the Patriots. They are who we hope to unseed afterall.

Cover 1 - One free safety

Randy Moss - Will Allen
Donte Stallworth - Andre Goodman
Wes Welker - Jason Taylor
Ben Watson - Joey Porter/Renaldo Hill
Kevin Faulk - Zach Thomas/Channing Crowder

I hope you see ALL of the mismatches. If you do not, I'm wasting my time.

The number one issue is that Will Allen cannot cover Randy Moss deep. So their goes your free safety.

The number two issue is that Jason Taylor cannot cover Wes Welker OR Donte Stallworth in the slot. So at least one of our inside linebackers will have to drop in the hook zone to cut off the inside routes of Wes Welker. This means you are down to a four man rush at all times. The zone drop from the inside backer will help this defender by giving him responsibility ONLY to his outside on his man. We still have an issue DEEP.

Hopefully Andre Goodman can cover Donte Stallworth. What do you give his chances the entire game? This appears to be our only good matchup.

The number three issue is that Joey Porter cannot cover Ben Watson. That is the reason I have the strong safety listed over the top of Watson. It's the reason every coach has the strong safety listed over the top of the TE.

The number four issue is Kevin Faulk on Crowder or Thomas. The coverage is dependant upon which side Faulk is releasing......and he is releasing on every down because you are reduced to a four man rush just by formation/personel grouping.

The Patriots may score one hundred points in this game and for what reason? Because we want to show a 34 front? What do we have left to rush the passer?

This is what you must do versus every personel group I listed above.

                 FS                           
                                            SS


                   Nickel                 OLB                 
C                                                           C

You can think you have the option to do otherwise but that neglects the facts of the NFL's passing game. Heck, it neglect the facts of the College passing game.

Getting back to your argument. You placed Vrabel into the equation. I will go as far as to say that Vrabel is off the field more than he is on the field. Now bring that name (and position) over to the Dolphins and say it with me.

"Jason Taylor spends more time off the field than he spends on the field."

You don't like that one? Try this one (as it happened at the beginning of last year)...

"Joey Porter spends more time off the field than he spends on the field."

Here is the fact that Dolphins fans must live with. As long as Jason Taylor is Jason Taylor, the Miami Dolphins will play a 43 front. When his performance drops, then the Dolphins can go into a different direction.

Now some novice may come around and say Saban did a 34 with Taylor playing outside linebacker. Taylor didn't play outside linebacker. Taylor was playing INSIDE linebacker on the relatively FEW times Saban used him in that role. It was a gimmick - nothing more. Why did you see Taylor in pass coverage? The INSIDE LINEBACKER was dropping into the hook zone.

 

[alen1]

great post

 

[Jets81]

Does anybody on our CURRENT roster fit this description? Or do we have to look into FA or the draft to find this type of guy?

3-4 NT is the toughest position to fill. The NT is head-up on the OC and is responsible for defending both A gaps in the running game. He faces constant double-teams and takes a pounding. He must have size, mental and physical toughness, stamina, durability, lateral quickness, and good technique in terms of playing with leverage. If the NT can not hold his ground, the defense is very vulnerable to runs between the tackles. The prototypical 3-4 NT is the Raiders' Ted Washington, who is a massive 6-5 365. Washington was the key to the Patriots win over the Panthers in the 2004 Super Bowl. Stephen Davis ran for a meager 19 yards on his first 9 carries, because Washington effectively stuffed the middle of the line. Other quality NTs include the Steelers' Casey Hampton (6-1 320) and the Chargers' Jamal Williams (6-2 348)

Winner. And no, a good 3-4 NT is not easy to find. Jets fans can tell you first hand. And now with the Phins switching there will be even more competition to find this very vital piece of the scheme.

 

[alen1]

Winner. And no, a good 3-4 NT is not easy to find. Jets fans can tell you first hand. And now with the Phins switching there will be even more competition to find this very vital piece of the scheme.

Who is your NT? Also, whats going on with Vilma? Is he going to be traded or whats going to happen? I dislike the Jets but Vilma comes from the U and gotta like that. Btw I was very impressed with the rookie David Harris this past year from you guys. The kid is hell of a talent.


BOOOOO JETS!

 

[RoninFin4]

Winner. And no, a good 3-4 NT is not easy to find. Jets fans can tell you first hand. And now with the Phins switching there will be even more competition to find this very vital piece of the scheme.

My buddy at school is a big Jets fan and he told me that there's some rumors in the NY media that the Jets are considering a switch back to the 4-3 so Vilma (if kept) and Harris can both be used to their full potential. Just wondered if there's any truth to that?