Was Dan Marino Overrated?

[Ziggie97]

Saw this article on cold hard football facts. Read it before you respond to it and read it with an open mind. It got me thinking.


The Marino mythology
Cold, Hard Football Facts for October 9, 2004




Here’s how to administer the final beating, courtesy of that shod-foot thug, the Cold, Hard Football Facts. Marino is, of course, the greatest regular-season quarterback in NFL history. He holds records in every meaningful career and single-season statistical category. But he never got it done in crunch time, and his failure to win a Super Bowl is a black mark in Miami history. Marino is, quite simply, the greatest player in North American sports never to win a championship.


DollFans have created an entire Mythology of Marino to explain this failure. They say he had no defense, no running game, no supporting cast. It sounds good on paper, but it’s just not true. Fortunately, the Cold, Hard Football Facts worship in a different temple, one where raw numbers and reality reign as Zeus and Apollo. They easily debunked the four biggest myths perpetuated by the cult of Dan Marino.

Myth: Dan Marino had no defense.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino played 17 seasons in the NFL. Twice, he had the luxury of playing with the league’s No. 1 scoring defense: his rookie year of 1983 (15.6 points per game), and again in 1998 (16.6 points per game). That’s a pretty enviable ratio in a league that had 28 and then 30 teams in Marino’s playing days.


Consider this: Terry Bradshaw played 14 seasons in Pittsburgh and won four Super Bowls. The famed Steel Curtain defense that he played with led the league in scoring just twice in those 14 years. Of Bradshaw's four title teams, only one boasted the league's best scoring defense.


In Marino’s record-setting 1984 season, the Dolphins had the No. 1 scoring offense in football and the No. 6 scoring defense (18.6 points per game). The 1990 Dolphins, meanwhile, boasted the league’s No. 4 scoring defense, surrendering just 15.1 points per game.


There’s no doubt Marino played with some poor defenses in his day, but that’s the price of playing in the league 17 years. But the Cold, Hard Football Facts show that he also played with several defenses more than strong enough to win Super Bowls.

Myth: Marino had no running game.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino joined Miami at a time when it had a reputation of being the best ground team in football. In fact, the year before Marino was drafted, the Dolphins made it all the way to the Super Bowl on the strength of a great running game and great defense.
In Marino’s rookie year, 1983, the Dolphins racked up 2,150 yards on the ground. In 1984, Marino set single-season records with 48 touchdowns and 5,084 yards passing. The Dolphins still managed 1,918 rushing yards and averaged 4.0 yards per carry.


It would be disingenuous to say that the Dolphins were a great running team later in Marino’s career. Of course, much of that can be attributed to too few rushing attempts and a misguided faith placed in Marino’s arm.
But consider this: The New England Patriots went 17-2 and won the Super Bowl last year while averaging a woeful 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. The Dolphins averaged more than 3.4 yards per rushing attempt 14 times in Marino’s 17 seasons. In other words, Marino's Dolphins ran the ball more than well enough to win Super Bowls.

Myth: Marino had to carry the Dolphins himself.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Few quarterbacks in NFL history have been surrounded by more talent than Marino.


In his 17-year career, Marino played with 55 players named to the Pro Bowl. Marino himself was named a Pro Bowler nine times. That’s a remarkable 64 Pro Bowl players, or nearly four for every season Marino spent in the NFL. Four times in Marino’s career, the Dolphins boasted five or more Pro Bowl players in a single season. Compare that with New England’s two Super Bowl teams, which had a total of just five Pro Bowl players.


Marino also had the rare luxury of joining a team that had played in the Super Bowl the year before he arrived. He also played most of his career for the winningest coach in NFL history, Don Shula.


Shula has quite a resume. Working with quarterbacks Bob Griese, Earl Morrall and Johnny Unitas, he led the Colts and Dolphins to five Super Bowls in 15 years. Over the next 13 seasons, working with Marino, he appeared in just one more Super Bowl. He lost.


If any quarterback in NFL history walked into an ideal situation in which to win a Super Bowl, it was Dan Marino.

Myth: Marino was a big-game quarterback.
Cold, Hard Football Facts: Want to know the real reason why Marino never won a Super Bowl? Sadly, the answer sits with Dan Marino himself.
Simply put, Marino did not elevate his game in the playoffs. In fact, his played dropped off quite noticeably. Marino has a career regular season passer rating of 86.4. His postseason passer rating was just 77.1. He played in 18 playoff games, and won just eight of them.


In his one Super Bowl appearance (a 38-16 loss to the 49ers in Super Bowl XIX), Marino completed 29 of 50 passes for 318 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs. It adds up to a weak 66.9 passer rating. One wonders what might have happened had his two Super Bowl drives that ended in interceptions ended in touchdowns instead.


Remember that 1998 Miami team that had the best defense in football? It made the playoffs, but Marino failed to hold up his end of the bargain. The season ended in the second round of the playoffs, with Marino coughing up two interceptions against Denver and posting a passer rating of just 65.5. Yet another opportunity for Marino to win a Super Bowl tossed into the hands of an opposing defender.

In fact, Marino threw at least one interception in 13 of his 18 career playoff games. He threw two or more interceptions 10 times. The Dolphins went just 1-9 in those 10 Marino multi-interception playoff games.

So, DollFans, if you're looking for a reason why Miami never won a Super Bowl in the 1980s or 90s, look no further than the faded Dan Marino poster still taped to the ceiling over your bed.

 

[Funkymonks]

Just proves that you can find stats to prove any point. This is bull and we all know the truth

 

[CRAZYDOLFAN305]

Now, I think I can speak for everyone on Finheaven when I say this, I take a giant poop on that article..

 

[Ziggie97]

Just proves that you can find stats to prove any point. This is bull and we all know the truth

something tells me i wont get any thanks for this post

 

[Pinkboy]

something tells me i wont get any thanks for this post

I gave you one. Because it's rare to find anyone with an ounce of objectivity around here.. The vast majority of posters here are just the pom pom wearing cheerleader types who can't be objective about any discussion if it saved their lives.

And a bunch of pom pom strokers on a message board makes for boring, monotonous, repetitive, nauseating discussion..

 

[Ziggie97]

I gave you one. Because it's rare to find anyone with any objectivity around here.. The vast majority of posters here are just the pom pom wearing cheerleader types who can't be objective about any discussion if it saved their lives.

And a bunch of pom pom strokers on a message board makes for boring, monotonous, and repetitive nauseating discussion..

Thank You ! I'm not trying to start a fight, and I'm not trying to piss people off eaither, but i enjoy debating, and instead of someone saying "I poop on this article" I would like someone to try and counter every point of this article.

I myself dont fully agree with it, but I would like to see someone else who doesn't agree with it at all make a logical rebuttal instead of just calling me stupid for posting something that doesn't praise marino like hes a messiah.

 

[AZStryker]

I gave you one. Because it's rare to find anyone with an ounce of objectivity around here.. The vast majority of posters here are just the pom pom wearing cheerleader types who can't be objective about any discussion if it saved their lives.

And a bunch of pom pom strokers on a message board makes for boring, monotonous, repetitive, nauseating discussion..

Feel free to leave at any time then!

 

[jg772006]

I remember reading that article for the first time, and to be absolutely honest....that article is complete BS!!!....Whoever wrote this article is either a Dan Marino hater, or a Miami Dolphin hater. BY NO MEANS NECESSARY was Marino overrated. Marino was every bit as good as he was throughout his glorious career.

His Myth:Dan Marino had no defense

That is no myth. That is complete fact. So you mean to tell me that John Bosa, Eric Kumerow, Jackie Shipp, Paul Lankford, among other horrible players and draft busts, put together a great defense for Marino? So what he had TWO high scoring defenses. Most of the defenses that Marino was put with throughout his career, were some of the worst ever assembled. Name me one GREAT...(not good)...but GREAT defensive player besides John Offerdahl that Marino was put with...You can't name one because there isn't one. OK..two years he had a top five scoring defense....13 years of his 17 year career he had a defense ranked in the bottom half of the league...You do the math.

His Myth:Marino had no running game.

That is no myth either. That is absolute fact. OK..he inheirited a good running game when he came into the league, but then name me one GREAT running game Marino was put with...THERE ISNT ONE!!!...Sammie Smith, John Avery, Cecil Collins, J.J. Johnson, Bernie Parmalee were all terrible. The only "decent" RB Marino was put with, was Karim Abdul-Jabbar, the only 1,000 yard rusher during Marino's tenure. The Dolphins hold the NFL record of having 16 straight years of being ranked higher in passing offense then rushing offense...Why's that?...HE WAS NEVER PROVIDED WITH A DECENT, CONSISTENT, AVERAGE RUNNING GAME!!! It is so evident.

His Myth: Marino had to carry the Dolphins himself.

Anyone who thinks this is a myth should be subjected to a drug test. This is more true than anything else. I challenge anyone who reads this to name one GREAT "Skill" player that Marino was put with throughout his career with the exception of Duper and Clayton...And dont tell me OJ McDuffie, Orande Gadsden, etc. because although they were really really good, they were not great pro bowl caliber players. Neither OJ or Orande went to a Pro Bowl. Marino made whatever average talent he had around him, and made them look like superstars, because Marino was THAT good. Imagine how the Dolphins would of been if Marino was never QBing the Dolphins. MIAMI WOULD OF SUCKED FOR 17 YEARS!!!...Think about it...For 17 years, the success of the Dolphins weighed solely on Marino's sholders..NO ONE ELSES!!! Bill Walsh said it best..."Joe Montana was a product of a system...Marino WAS a system!!"...Just stop and imagine how the Dolphins would of been if Marino was never with us....scary isnt it? Marino and Elway are the two classic examples of QBs that LITERALLY carried their respective franchises on their backs...the only difference between Elway and Marino, is that Elway finally lucked out in the end of his career when he was finally provided with a running game.

His Myth: Marino was a big-game quarterback.

This is no myth either. To claim this as a myth is the biggest BS statement I have ever heard in my life. It wasn't because Marino couldn't play good in the big games (which he did play good)...it was the fact that at so many inopportune times, Marino's team let him down. Think of all the incidents and moments throughout Dolphin history during Marino's tenure where his TEAM let him down.

-The Double Whammy on Sammie
-Pete Stoyanovich's FG Miss in the 1994 playoff game against San Diego
-The atrocious defensive performance against Jacksonville in 1999
(among others that I prefer not to mention)

Marino played very well throughout his career and demanded it from others, but his team let him down. Marino was given the task of carrying the Fins with no running game, no defense, average players, throwing 50 times a game, and trying to win a SB, which he couldnt. He tried, god knows he tried, but his team did not try around him.

BTW. I still have a Dan Marino poster hung in my room, and I proud of that, because Marino in my opinion, is the greatest QB to ever lived....END OF STORY!!!

 

[esc097]

Saw this article on cold hard football facts. Read it before you respond to it and read it with an open mind. It got me thinking.


The Marino mythology
Cold, Hard Football Facts for October 9, 2004




Here’s how to administer the final beating, courtesy of that shod-foot thug, the Cold, Hard Football Facts. Marino is, of course, the greatest regular-season quarterback in NFL history. He holds records in every meaningful career and single-season statistical category. But he never got it done in crunch time, and his failure to win a Super Bowl is a black mark in Miami history. Marino is, quite simply, the greatest player in North American sports never to win a championship.


DollFans have created an entire Mythology of Marino to explain this failure. They say he had no defense, no running game, no supporting cast. It sounds good on paper, but it’s just not true. Fortunately, the Cold, Hard Football Facts worship in a different temple, one where raw numbers and reality reign as Zeus and Apollo. They easily debunked the four biggest myths perpetuated by the cult of Dan Marino.

Myth: Dan Marino had no defense.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino played 17 seasons in the NFL. Twice, he had the luxury of playing with the league’s No. 1 scoring defense: his rookie year of 1983 (15.6 points per game), and again in 1998 (16.6 points per game). That’s a pretty enviable ratio in a league that had 28 and then 30 teams in Marino’s playing days.


Consider this: Terry Bradshaw played 14 seasons in Pittsburgh and won four Super Bowls. The famed Steel Curtain defense that he played with led the league in scoring just twice in those 14 years. Of Bradshaw's four title teams, only one boasted the league's best scoring defense.


In Marino’s record-setting 1984 season, the Dolphins had the No. 1 scoring offense in football and the No. 6 scoring defense (18.6 points per game). The 1990 Dolphins, meanwhile, boasted the league’s No. 4 scoring defense, surrendering just 15.1 points per game.


There’s no doubt Marino played with some poor defenses in his day, but that’s the price of playing in the league 17 years. But the Cold, Hard Football Facts show that he also played with several defenses more than strong enough to win Super Bowls.

Myth: Marino had no running game.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino joined Miami at a time when it had a reputation of being the best ground team in football. In fact, the year before Marino was drafted, the Dolphins made it all the way to the Super Bowl on the strength of a great running game and great defense.
In Marino’s rookie year, 1983, the Dolphins racked up 2,150 yards on the ground. In 1984, Marino set single-season records with 48 touchdowns and 5,084 yards passing. The Dolphins still managed 1,918 rushing yards and averaged 4.0 yards per carry.


It would be disingenuous to say that the Dolphins were a great running team later in Marino’s career. Of course, much of that can be attributed to too few rushing attempts and a misguided faith placed in Marino’s arm.
But consider this: The New England Patriots went 17-2 and won the Super Bowl last year while averaging a woeful 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. The Dolphins averaged more than 3.4 yards per rushing attempt 14 times in Marino’s 17 seasons. In other words, Marino's Dolphins ran the ball more than well enough to win Super Bowls.

Myth: Marino had to carry the Dolphins himself.

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Few quarterbacks in NFL history have been surrounded by more talent than Marino.


In his 17-year career, Marino played with 55 players named to the Pro Bowl. Marino himself was named a Pro Bowler nine times. That’s a remarkable 64 Pro Bowl players, or nearly four for every season Marino spent in the NFL. Four times in Marino’s career, the Dolphins boasted five or more Pro Bowl players in a single season. Compare that with New England’s two Super Bowl teams, which had a total of just five Pro Bowl players.


Marino also had the rare luxury of joining a team that had played in the Super Bowl the year before he arrived. He also played most of his career for the winningest coach in NFL history, Don Shula.


Shula has quite a resume. Working with quarterbacks Bob Griese, Earl Morrall and Johnny Unitas, he led the Colts and Dolphins to five Super Bowls in 15 years. Over the next 13 seasons, working with Marino, he appeared in just one more Super Bowl. He lost.


If any quarterback in NFL history walked into an ideal situation in which to win a Super Bowl, it was Dan Marino.

Myth: Marino was a big-game quarterback.
Cold, Hard Football Facts: Want to know the real reason why Marino never won a Super Bowl? Sadly, the answer sits with Dan Marino himself.
Simply put, Marino did not elevate his game in the playoffs. In fact, his played dropped off quite noticeably. Marino has a career regular season passer rating of 86.4. His postseason passer rating was just 77.1. He played in 18 playoff games, and won just eight of them.


In his one Super Bowl appearance (a 38-16 loss to the 49ers in Super Bowl XIX), Marino completed 29 of 50 passes for 318 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs. It adds up to a weak 66.9 passer rating. One wonders what might have happened had his two Super Bowl drives that ended in interceptions ended in touchdowns instead.


Remember that 1998 Miami team that had the best defense in football? It made the playoffs, but Marino failed to hold up his end of the bargain. The season ended in the second round of the playoffs, with Marino coughing up two interceptions against Denver and posting a passer rating of just 65.5. Yet another opportunity for Marino to win a Super Bowl tossed into the hands of an opposing defender.

In fact, Marino threw at least one interception in 13 of his 18 career playoff games. He threw two or more interceptions 10 times. The Dolphins went just 1-9 in those 10 Marino multi-interception playoff games.

So, DollFans, if you're looking for a reason why Miami never won a Super Bowl in the 1980s or 90s, look no further than the faded Dan Marino poster still taped to the ceiling over your bed.

Thats a pretty well thought out article. Even though I think Marino is one of the top 5 QBS of all time, I'm too lazy right now to respond to every point on the article. Maybe tommarrow :) I just feel very unproductive right now.

 

[Pinkboy]

Thank You ! I'm not trying to start a fight, and I'm not trying to piss people off eaither, but i enjoy debating, and instead of someone saying "I poop on this article" I would like someone to try and counter every point of this article.

I myself dont fully agree with it, but I would like to see someone else who doesn't agree with it at all make a logical rebuttal instead of just calling me stupid for posting something that doesn't praise marino like hes a messiah.

Some points in that article are correct, some are kind of exaggerated. I'm just going to paste a post I made in another thread comparing Marino to Favre. And I'm sure you'd get my viewpoint on it- I;m just too lazy to write up an entire post breaking everything down as I can go on forever, this is just a very quick summary.

Both QB's were better at different things.

Favre was much better at selling the run.. A big reason why Miami couldn't run the ball was Dan Marino.. Bruce Smith said one time that the whole league knew when Miami was going to run the ball.. Smith said Marino tipped defenses off rather easily (and quickly) by how he came out of the snap through his hip movement.

So some of the problems Miami had running the ball for all those years can be attributed to Marino himself.. I mean, no team in league history had a drought running the ball like Miami had for all those years. Marino was partly to blame for that, and Bruce Smith pretty much gave the reason why.

Another thing with Favre is teammates love a hardcore QB who gets down and dirty.. How many times did you see Favre in the 90's run outside the pocket and take on a linebacker head on going for a first down? Many times.. When his team was down against a superior team like Dallas on the road, you'd see Favre with incredible adrenaline going at linebackers like a linebacker himself.. That really REALLY inspires a team when they see their QB do that. Favre played with alot of moxie and he deserves his legendary status.

Marino didn't have those elements. Marino had other elements. He had that keen awareness in the pocket coupled with his quick release., You will also notice that once Duper and Clayton left, Marino's numbers went down. He just wasn't the same prolific passer, although still one of the best who ever played the game. Those 2 receivers don't get enough credit in my opinion..

I believe Favre was the more complete QB. And Marino the more dynamic passer (although Favre was very dynamic in his own right) . Both are deserving Hall of Famers and legends in their own right.

 

[Pennington's Rocket Arm]

Average rank of teams defense:

for Bradshaw's career starting in Pittsburgh: 7.76
for Montana's career starting in San Fran: 5.10
for Brady's career starting in New England: 7.00
for Marino's career starting in Miami: 15.69

 

[Rich]

Marino is statistically identical to Brett Favre. Both threw too many interceptions. Each had a lot of 300 yard games. Favre was better on the run, Marino had better pocket presence and a quicker release. Marino probably wasn't the "Greatest QB of all time", but he certainly top 5 or 10 and deserving to be mentioned in the conversation.

On paper, the greatest statistical qb to ever play the game was Steve Young. He is rarely ever mentioned in discussions of Greatest QB, though.

Peyton Manning is on pace to match Favre and Marino's stats, plus he has a better TD-INT ratio.

Tom Brady has the best TD-INT ratio in the history of the game, but he puts up a lot of 200-yard-Jay-Fiedler-esque games.

Warren Moon had 50,000 yards passing... 10,000 less than Favre and Marino, but he had 30,000 yards in Canada and a couple of Grey Cup Championships.

Montana and Elway are honorable mentions.
*****
Football is a team game. Marino had a good secondary but a bad d-line for a number of years. He had runningbacks Lorenzo Hampton and Sammie Smith and Bernie Parmalee and yet still put up high point totals.

 

[WVDolphan]

Total BS and anyone who posts such a thing should be banned for life IMHO.

First of all Ive been harping for years about the lack of running game argument was BS. Marino didnt need a running game. He needed a defense.

Just go down the line and look at the years when the phins had a highly ranked D. It correlates with years in which they made deeper runs in the playoffs. Its really that simple. Aikman, Montana, and despite what this thing says, Bradshaw, had the #1 ranked D(yardage, although I believe pts against is more important) in most of the years they won the title. Possibly everytime but, I would have to look it up.

So yea, HIS ROOKIE year he had a stout D, and they made a decent run. The next year, they had a pretty good D, they went to the bowl and lost to arguably the best team ever in the 84 9ers. The other year they mention when he had an outstanding D(ranked first in pts against) was when Marino wasnt the same player. One of the last two years of his career. Give him those defenses anytime between 84 and 96 and dont put him against the greatest team ever, he most likely wins one. Or two, or three. GET REAL PEOPLE.

And yea, the article is right. As long as Marino was on the team, offense was never a problem despite any running game woes. Who cares about running when you have Marino. Let him sling it and dare anyone to stop him. Too bad JJ wanted to run Karim Abdul Jabbar every play when he had that great defense he created. If he had just let Danny sling it, we couldve gone further.

Why would anyone post this BS on here? Marino is the greatest football player ever. Anyone who made a probowl or whatever when Marino played, it was just because of Marino and they were lucky to even be on his team.

Marino > the phins. The one and only player who ever will be > the team and above having anything negative said about him. Its blasphamy. You guys want to treat players like Ronnie Brown, JT, Zach, and for gods sake Beck and I dont know why, to this Marino level. Even the 3 good players and the 2 possible HOFers on this list of 4 cant bust the bubbles on Marino's piss. Not even close to his level.

People taking shots at Dan, or even suggesting he wasnt by far the greatest player ever really pisses me off.

 

[WVDolphan]

I gave you one. Because it's rare to find anyone with an ounce of objectivity around here.. The vast majority of posters here are just the pom pom wearing cheerleader types who can't be objective about any discussion if it saved their lives.

And a bunch of pom pom strokers on a message board makes for boring, monotonous, repetitive, nauseating discussion..

This is the one and only player who is above reproach and objectivity should never even be tried. Just admit he is pretty much God and stay down. I understand the frustration when avg. HOFers like JT and Zach are treated in such a way, but Marino is a completely different can of worms. LEAVE DAN ALONE. BOW and admit his brilliance.

 

[HybridPHIN 23]

you can make numbers say anything........ in this case...... someone put a whole lot of effort into trying to discredit Marino with numbers, which if you ask me.... has to be pretty darn difficult.

When you reference a certain cituation with numbers instead of real input it doesn't help your case.... I can go back and look at the stats of Every game Babe Ruth played in and then write something up and you;d know right away i've never even seen the guy swing a bat.... that's what i got from this. I just dont see a sensible motive. Anyone in the pro football business or with half a brain knows Dan Marino was freakin amazing, you'd hafta have no life at all to stoop to questioning Marino's ability as a QB. I'm embarrassed for you.