Where Have All The Great QB's Gone? | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Where Have All The Great QB's Gone?

PhinsPhan said:
I thought about making a topic like this awhile ago.

But you are right.

McNabb, Culpepper, McNair are all vastly overrated.
Manning as much as I dont like the guy I think I have to concede to the fact he is that good. Same goes for Tom Brady.

Once Farve retires they better hope that Eli and Big Ben step up to take his place.

But after Farve and Manning, maybe Tom Brady there is nothing.

I do think that there was a real push on the african american QB to be a star. They overhype McNabb, Culpepper and even McNair up until now. These guys are what the NFL labels stars but in reality they are just good players. Not Stars. Unreal athletic ability but as we all know skill doesnt always make the QB (ie Joe Montana).

Another thing to think about though is the stats. When you look at Aikmens stats as an example you will see very average numbers. But he was a perennial pro bowler. Even Gus was a pro bowler with some gaudy stats. So have the QBs actually got better now and we just dont realize it thinking back to the "Glory Days." Or has the game changed that much and thus the major difference in stats. Not too long ago 77 QB rtg was above average. Now that is backup material. Either way I am not sure. I jsut thought I would point this out.
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I disagree about McNair being overhyped. His problem is injury due to his playing style. He had several years where I would argue he was the best QB in the league. Also Culpepper turned the corner last year IMO. He still has several years of continuing to play at last years level to warrant him being considered for the great category but he has gotten better every year
 
adamprez2003 said:
There's no way you could have McNabb as definitely great and have Tom Brady as someday great and then justify McNabb's selection by saying he got his team to three championships when brady won three super bowls. My only gripe with McNabb is his accuracy. He misses too many throws to be considered great in my estimation but everyone has different criteria
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i stated that by tenure...

the QBs i listed were not relative to each other... i was just saying in general. you are right, brady will make it someday to the HOF.

McNabb has been a starter and putting up good stats longer than Brady, so i gave him the slight edge due to tenure.
 
Theres a couple in San Diego after a couple of years that will be mentioned;-)

:)
 
texasPHINSfan said:
i stated that by tenure...

the QBs i listed were not relative to each other... i was just saying in general. you are right, brady will make it someday to the HOF.

McNabb has been a starter and putting up good stats longer than Brady, so i gave him the slight edge due to tenure.
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fair enough
 
adamprez2003 said:
I disagree about McNair being overhyped. His problem is injury due to his playing style. He had several years where I would argue he was the best QB in the league. Also Culpepper turned the corner last year IMO. He still has several years of continuing to play at last years level to warrant him being considered for the great category but he has gotten better every year
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Here is my reasoning.

McNair had a good running game all those years. He was always behind arguably the best OL in football. He had a decent set of receivers when he was finally tagged a star. I give McNair the credit when saying he was good. But all too often I watched games and the announcers (ahem Phil ahem Simms) would just start gushing over how great he was. It is the little things. If he would miss a throw they would say it was perfectly placed so that the defender could not get it but the receiver had a shot. That kind of stuff. But he is one of the best QBs in the league. I am just not sure that is saying much.

Culpepper.
It is trendy to label this guy underrated now. Personally I hate this crap. Watch any Vikings game. I am not trying to use melodrama or go over the top I am being serious. Watch any Viks game. If he gets less than 4 seconds in the pocket he makes a mistake. If he gets less than 5 seconds it is an incomplete pass. When team blitz him, he falters. Simply put his Oline gives him time. You want to talk about Feeley looking into receivers. Culpepper does the exact same thing, only difference is he has time to stare at a guy until he is open. Then don't even get me started on his rush offense. It is pathetic. He can't handle game management or calling the plays at the line. He just dinks and dunks all day long. He is down by 10 points with 2 minutes left and he stilll dinks and dunks. The reason the dink and dunk was so successful was because he had highly athletic receivers and the majority of the time Moss was sent on a fly route.

When Moss goes on the fly route he is always followed by at least one saftey. This forces every team to play Minnesota in some sort of cover one w/double team, straight man-2, or a varied cover 4 with coverage leaning towards the Moss side. None of those allow for blitz packages and all of them are easy to run against. Well in all those formations the short middle of the field is wide open as it is hard for any CB or LB to keep up with the receiver the entire width of the field as they run a drag route. This is why guys like Wiggins caught so many passes last year. Because he was always open. With Moss in the lineup there was always one guy open. Then get in the redzone and he throws a no skill lob to him and it didnt matter what sort of coverage there was it was a TD. Now this year without a great OC in Linehan directing the shots and without Moss to stretch the field on every play he is going to have to see what it is like to really play.

Culpepper is the 2nd most overrated player in the NFL.

McNabb.
Same OL story as Culpepper. Same 2 minute management story as Culpepper. Same thing with blitzes. Once again watch a game, if he doesnt get his 4 seconds in the pocket there is a mistake made. Even against Carolina 2 years ago, the Philly Oline was good enough to hold Carolinas heralded front four in check the entire game. Yet he still had a bad game. He disappears in big games. His throws are off target 90% of the time. 90%. Next game count how many times McNabb hits his receiver in stride or close to his body.
 
PhinsPhan said:
Here is my reasoning.

McNair had a good running game all those years. He was always behind arguably the best OL in football. He had a decent set of receivers when he was finally tagged a star. I give McNair the credit when saying he was good. But all too often I watched games and the announcers (ahem Phil ahem Simms) would just start gushing over how great he was. It is the little things. If he would miss a throw they would say it was perfectly placed so that the defender could not get it but the receiver had a shot. That kind of stuff. But he is one of the best QBs in the league. I am just not sure that is saying much.

Culpepper.
It is trendy to label this guy underrated now. Personally I hate this crap. Watch any Vikings game. I am not trying to use melodrama or go over the top I am being serious. Watch any Viks game. If he gets less than 4 seconds in the pocket he makes a mistake. If he gets less than 5 seconds it is an incomplete pass. When team blitz him, he falters. Simply put his Oline gives him time. You want to talk about Feeley looking into receivers. Culpepper does the exact same thing, only difference is he has time to stare at a guy until he is open. Then don't even get me started on his rush offense. It is pathetic. He can't handle game management or calling the plays at the line. He just dinks and dunks all day long. He is down by 10 points with 2 minutes left and he stilll dinks and dunks. The reason the dink and dunk was so successful was because he had highly athletic receivers and the majority of the time Moss was sent on a fly route.

When Moss goes on the fly route he is always followed by at least one saftey. This forces every team to play Minnesota in some sort of cover one w/double team, straight man-2, or a varied cover 4 with coverage leaning towards the Moss side. None of those allow for blitz packages and all of them are easy to run against. Well in all those formations the short middle of the field is wide open as it is hard for any CB or LB to keep up with the receiver the entire width of the field as they run a drag route. This is why guys like Wiggins caught so many passes last year. Because he was always open. With Moss in the lineup there was always one guy open. Then get in the redzone and he throws a no skill lob to him and it didnt matter what sort of coverage there was it was a TD. Now this year without a great OC in Linehan directing the shots and without Moss to stretch the field on every play he is going to have to see what it is like to really play.

Culpepper is the 2nd most overrated player in the NFL.

McNabb.
Same OL story as Culpepper. Same 2 minute management story as Culpepper. Same thing with blitzes. Once again watch a game, if he doesnt get his 4 seconds in the pocket there is a mistake made. Even against Carolina 2 years ago, the Philly Oline was good enough to hold Carolinas heralded front four in check the entire game. Yet he still had a bad game. He disappears in big games. His throws are off target 90% of the time. 90%. Next game count how many times McNabb hits his receiver in stride or close to his body.
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Good points. Although I would say that Culpepper only entered into the realm of even being considered great last year. I though last year he really did play great. Granted its only one year of his career but who knows maybe he continues. As for Mcnair and CULPEPPER having great lines all great QBs have them. You cant be a great qb without a great oline or at least a good one. Thats why even if we had peyton manning this year he would be an avg qb at best
 
adamprez2003 said:
Good points. Although I would say that Culpepper only entered into the realm of even being considered great last year. I though last year he really did play great. Granted its only one year of his career but who knows maybe he continues. As for Mcnair and CULPEPPER having great lines all great QBs have them. You cant be a great qb without a great oline or at least a good one. Thats why even if we had peyton manning this year he would be an avg qb at best
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That is true. But not all QBs are made from them. It is Culpeppers and McNabbs inability to scan the field that would make them terrible if they had an average line. Tom Brady as an example gets pressure all the time and is forced to find an open guy. The difference though is he finds the guy. If McNabb and Culpeppers primary is not open they wait. Then if he still isnt open they wait some more. Then finally they run. May seem like I am very biased but if you watch any game you will see the same thing.

As with McNair I was trying to say that two years ago he really showed me something to change my mind. I no longer thought that he just had talent surrounding him. But in the SuperBowl he could only run. Once again trying to say that the Titans were 1 yard short is a joke. That was two yards short, with an extra point to tie. Del Greco has missed Extra Point attempts in the past and then that would be to go to OT. Not to win. Sorry I got off on a tangent.
 
PhinsPhan said:
That is true. But not all QBs are made from them. It is Culpeppers and McNabbs inability to scan the field that would make them terrible if they had an average line. Tom Brady as an example gets pressure all the time and is forced to find an open guy. The difference though is he finds the guy. If McNabb and Culpeppers primary is not open they wait. Then if he still isnt open they wait some more. Then finally they run. May seem like I am very biased but if you watch any game you will see the same thing.

As with McNair I was trying to say that two years ago he really showed me something to change my mind. I no longer thought that he just had talent surrounding him. But in the SuperBowl he could only run. Once again trying to say that the Titans were 1 yard short is a joke. That was two yards short, with an extra point to tie. Del Greco has missed Extra Point attempts in the past and then that would be to go to OT. Not to win. Sorry I got off on a tangent.
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I agree with McNabb. You dont even have to debate him with me. My problem with McNabb is inaccuracy. I can't consider you a great QB without accuracy. To me that's the number one trait all great QBs must possess. That's why I think a guy like Marc Bulger is someone who could one day be great. Hey, that's why I was for AJ over Gus, the guy is more accurate evne though the other parts of his game leave alot to be desired. Not that either of these QBs should be mentioned in a post on great qbs lol
 
:wave: oh, oh...pick me, pick me, I know the answer.

All the great QB's are now resting on their throne in the HOF :chuckle:
 
texasPHINSfan said:
uh... .FAVRE?

Manning is in their class, as is McNabb and Culpepper.
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Favre yes. McNabb and Culpepper? Absolutely not. Best African American QB to play in the NFL was Warren Moon. He was very good. Accurate, strong arm and had some mobility. Most importantly, he could read coverages.
He was better than 95% of the QB's playing today.
 
I am sorry, but I can not in good faith give a good opinion on this matter with our current QB situation. It is very hard to be optimistic about the coming season and talking about the greats of the past and present does not help. We are in real trouble here. OPINION: Sell the farm,Give them a 1'st Get Rivers in here now while we still have some people here that can get it done.
 
zodiak said:
Dolfans

Watching SportsCenter this morning they had a story about the "LeBron James"
of football... Jimmy Clausen

It got me thinking where have all the great qb's gone?

Remember when the league had "GREAT QB's"...Marino,Kelly,Elway,Aikman
even the simple NFL starter guys like Esiason,O'Brien,Kosar, even these guys
in my opinion are better then 95% of the leagues star QB's today.

Lets look at who the NFL pushes as its "star" QB's....

P.Manning- ok, he is in the class of a Marino...Elway...Kelly
D.McNabb- really if you needed a QB for one drive would you take him over
say???? Boomer Esiason? I wouldnt
M.Hassellback- come on who takes this guy over any of the above guys?
M.Vick- really a "star QB" maybe a star player but he is no QB...just watch Tampa Bay defense him, or wait till he plays New England and BB show the league how to stop another un-stopable player(remember M.Faulk he hasnt been the same since that SB)

I think you get my point you may not agree but thats ok, I firmly stand behind my feelings that the league is lacking in true "STAR" qb's...todays QB's dont even have the same arm strength as the guys in the past(thanks to all these WC offense coach's)
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Well, the 80's and 90's had to be considered the "age of the QB" in the NFL with the guys you mentioned (and you forgot Favre)...

But you are right about QBs not being the star guys...but what has happened is that D coordinators and HCs have developed schemes to neutralize the "great QB". It takes more than just a great QB to win in the NFL these days. The same can be said about great RBs as well...it's just not the most important position on the field. Besides, with most of the guys you're referring to, FA has made it more difficult to keep teams together like they once were able to...It's not all a bad thing, just a different thing...to those of us that are football finatics...watching a good D or great STs is just as exciting as watching a good offense...
 
True greats:
Dan Marino
Jim Kelly
Warren Moon
John Elway
Dan Fouts
Troy Aikman
Brett Farve
Joe Montana
Steve Young
Randal Cunningham

Very good:
Phil Simms
Boomer Esiason
Steve Deberg
Bernie Kosar
Dave Krieg
Jim Everett
Drew Bledsoe
Ken O'Brien
Ken Anderson

I just named half a league's worth of QB's most of which were playing at one time, and I was only about 10 when it was happening. I'd say there were definitely more star QB's then. One huge factor is consistency... a lot of those guys played for 10-15 years at a very high level. The late 90's and early 00's seems to be the period of the one-year QB. Somebody just busts out and has a great season, then disappears again. That leads to trades, which means they don't stick around and become a team icon like they used to. Kurt Warner was great for a short time for the Rams, but Jim Everett was throwing touchdowns to Henry Ellard for eight years. Those kinds of QB/WR teams stick in our minds for a long time, even when the members aren't all-time greats by themselves. Krieg to Largent, Montana to Clark/Rice, Young to Rice, Marino to Clayton/Duper... they just happened so many times! Nowadays when you talk about "great" QB/WR teams you may as well start with the question "what year?" It used to be "what decade?"
 
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