Who should start at FS. | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Who should start at FS.

jtsacksyou said:
clemmons would be better at SS
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No he wouldn't. He sucks in the box. He has great speed which allows him to cover over the top more and hawk balls down too bad he can't catch them.
 
beanh8er said:
No he wouldn't. He sucks in the box. He has great speed which allows him to cover over the top more and hawk balls down too bad he can't catch them.
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misconception. just because he's fast and has a knack for making plays doesn't mean he's a FS. i watched every game of his at georgia. dude is a SS through and through. he excels in the box - lays the lumber every chance he gets. more stiff in the hips and trouble changing direction than you'd like a FS to be. more comfortable in your face than over the top. tough telling the DB's where to be when you're all over the damn place. that job belongs to clemons - i'd rather the DB's be in position rather than a 'lucky' pick every now and again. good player. great pick. just keep the man where he belongs.
 
Might speak a lot to the mindset of this team by who they start....Jones, the Aggressive risk taker, or Clemons, the play it safe and steady guy......
 
Neither has stood out much over the other this preseason, so I'm going with the guy with the most big play ability, and that's Reshad Jones.
 
i think clemons starts but they will both get alot of pt
 
I'll bullish on Jones because I think you need at least one of your safeties to be a playmaker and have ball skills, and Jones has both. I mean... it's not a coincidence that the Dolphins are so bad at producing interceptions. Both Clemons and Bell have stone hands and don't play the ball very well.

The problem with Jones is that he freelances too much, and that when he doesn't freelance he doesn't make as many plays. Overall I think we'll be better off as a defense in the long run starting Jones but if I'm Miami I think you start Clemons against New England. Tom Brady manipulates safeties better than anyone and I think a guy who plays conservative but has ridiculous closing speed like Clemons is a better matchup there.

I personally don't think either guy has the skill set to play SS. They're both better at FS. Especially Clemons, who would make a pretty poor SS in my view.
 
Mr. Magoo said:
I'll bullish on Jones because I think you need at least one of your safeties to be a playmaker and have ball skills, and Jones has both. I mean... it's not a coincidence that the Dolphins are so bad at producing interceptions. Both Clemons and Bell have stone hands and don't play the ball very well.

The problem with Jones is that he freelances too much, and that when he doesn't freelance he doesn't make as many plays. Overall I think we'll be better off as a defense in the long run starting Jones but if I'm Miami I think you start Clemons against New England. Tom Brady manipulates safeties better than anyone and I think a guy who plays conservative but has ridiculous closing speed like Clemons is a better matchup there.

I personally don't think either guy has the skill set to play SS. They're both better at FS. Especially Clemons, who would make a pretty poor SS in my view.
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i agree with most of what you said, but imo the future is clemons at fs and jones at ss. but it feels good to have some nice young up and comers at saftey
 
Mr. Magoo said:
I'll bullish on Jones because I think you need at least one of your safeties to be a playmaker and have ball skills, and Jones has both. I mean... it's not a coincidence that the Dolphins are so bad at producing interceptions. Both Clemons and Bell have stone hands and don't play the ball very well.

The problem with Jones is that he freelances too much, and that when he doesn't freelance he doesn't make as many plays. Overall I think we'll be better off as a defense in the long run starting Jones but if I'm Miami I think you start Clemons against New England. Tom Brady manipulates safeties better than anyone and I think a guy who plays conservative but has ridiculous closing speed like Clemons is a better matchup there.

I personally don't think either guy has the skill set to play SS. They're both better at FS. Especially Clemons, who would make a pretty poor SS in my view.
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freelancer = SS. you know this.
 
its no contest folks, jones all day. Not only is he a playmaker but the guy hits like a truck. He is the missing piece to this great defense. I believe sparano only left him out to play in the last preseason opener to let him get more experience, he needs as much as he can get . I have a feeling sparano is starting jones against the patrios.
 
sinPHIN said:
i agree with most of what you said, but imo the future is clemons at fs and jones at ss. but it feels good to have some nice young up and comers at saftey
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I think it's a misconception that you make your bigger, slower, more physical safety a strong safety and keep them in the box all the time, ala Steve Atwater. The game is more complex and pass happy now, and with the explosion of athletic tight ends what you really end up having -- ideally, imo -- is your smoother, better cover man at strong safety and your more straight-lineish player at free safety.

Look at the Steelers. Polamalu is a much more dynamic cover player than Ryan Clark. His hips are smoother. He covers better. His ball skills are much better. But he's a strong safety. They use him in the box because he's a physical player for his size (at 5'10, 215 he is shorter and only slightly heavier than Clark), and because his hips and instincts allow him to change directions quickly and make plays in small spaces. If he were to switch positions with Clark, he would probably be fine at FS, just underused. Clark on the other hand would be out of his element physically trying to cover running backs and tight ends. He doesn't have the overall athleticism for it. Their defense would suffer. Try to imagine Ed Reed -- who's always been stiff in his change of direction and makes up for his average speed with incredible instincts and ball skills -- in the box as a SS. It doesn't work. He's a great player, but he's not built for it, and it's not because he's physically small, because he isn't (he's only five pounds lighter than Yeremiah Bell). It just requires a different kind of athlete.

The situation with Jones and Clemons is that neither guy has smooth hips or is a good man to man cover guy. They're both physical, straight lineish players. The advantage for Clemons is that he's extremely fast (his 4.33 40 time matches Reggie Bush), which makes up for his average instincts, read and react and transition out of his backpedal. Jones' lack of speed is overstated (he ran a 4.51 I believe, much faster than the 49ers Dashon Goldson's 4.65, who was the darling of the board a few weeks back), but he is somewhat slower than Clemons, making up for this with better instincts and reaction time.

Clemons is going to be in position to make more plays, but I don't think he's going to make them. You give up something in the speed department with Jones, especially as he gets more seasoned, but he's fast enough for the position and can make plays on the ball.
 
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Mr. Magoo said:
Freelancer = bench.

Unless you're Ed Reed. Who's a FS.
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one of the best posters on this entire board should know when players are in position - and who keeps them there. jones ain't that guy. polamalu as an example will embarrass anyone - especially clark. he's an exception to the rule.

jones plays stiff and likes to roam. let him do that. clemons plays much more more 'smooth' than jones in terms of being in position - play towards their strengths IMO. jones might succeed from a great defense but will never reach his potential as a FS. meh.
 
BobDole said:
one of the best posters on this entire board should know when players are in position - and who keeps them there. jones ain't that guy. polamalu as an example will embarrass anyone - especially clark. he's an exception to the rule.

jones plays stiff and likes to roam. let him do that. clemons plays much more more 'smooth' than jones in terms of being in position - play towards their strengths IMO. jones might succeed from a great defense but will never reach his potential as a FS. meh.
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I would disagree that Clemons is any smoother than Jones. Both are basically tugboats in their change of direction, which is why they're playing FS instead of corner. Their COD numbers from the combine are pretty awful and they show it on the field.

I guess it comes down to what you view as "ideal" in the position. My vision for a FS is a player with great instincts, intelligence and ball skills. Speed and change of direction are secondary to an ability to take great angles of pursuit to the ball carrier and/or the ball once you have changed direction. My vision for a strong safety is someone who is comfortable (physical enough) playing the box but also who can cover tight ends and running backs man to man. Ideally this is a versatile player with the athleticism to play multiple roles in a pinch (whereas a FS is generally back in single high or two deep), who is quick reacting in small spaces. The special package defenses the Packers run with Charles Woodson are an example of the role you ideally want your strong safety to be able to play at times, as they take advantage of Woodson's ability to play physical at the line of scrimmage (for a corner) to enable him to cover or blitz and confuse an offense with his versatility.

Remember when Sean Smith was playing that sort of "rover" role early in the season last year, covering tight ends and backs? Well, that was Yeremiah Bell's old role from the two previous years. Bell would come down into the box and cover people in short zones or in man to man (playing where an athletic linebacker would generally play) and Tyrone Culver would come into to play 2 deep with Gibril Wilson or Renaldo Hill. It's not a coincidence that's the role they had Bell play, nor that they thought Sean Smith would be good in that role (with Bell remaining back at SS). The man to man and short zone coverage responsibility requires certain skills. Bell has them. So does Smith (obviously, you give up some physicality there relative to Bell and especially relative to a linebacker, who relies on his size and strength to overcome his short comings in coverage in that role. But you gain a lot of coverage ability and also height, which is an underrated attribute to have in your short zone players). Clemons and Jones, in my opinion, do not have these skills. They can't cover man to man. They just can't. And their stiffness would be exposed close to the line of scrimmage.

With all that said, however, the truth is that in the modern NFL, the roles of these two players have become somewhat blurred. Last season the Dolphins had Clemons up at the line and Bell back in the deep middle every once in a while. More and more teams are playing more and more cover 2. The Dolphins play less than most, I would say (having not run the numbers), which makes the debate more relevant here than it would if we were discussing the Colts or the Vikings, for example. But still, in many ways these roles are interchangeable, especially if you don't mind restricting the roles these guys play. I've said before and would repeat here than I think Jones' best fit is with a base cover 2 team. That's really where he would excel, imo. Plus, I think he needs to work on his pursuit angles, as they're spotty at times, mostly due to over aggressiveness, imo (Clemons probably takes better angles, but doesn't always).

The bottom line is I don't think either guy is set to become a star. But I do think that the best bet for both players is FS. It would surprise me, were Yeremiah Bell to get hurt, to see either of them move over and play his spot. That job would almost certainly go to Tyrone Culver.
 
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