Why Prospects Meeting With Dolphins At The Combine Might Want To Study Up On Dan Marino

[DKphin]

▪ If you’re among dozens of college players who will interview with the Dolphins at the NFL Scouting Combine this week, here’s a tip to get off on the right foot: You better know who Dan Marino is.

Apparently, not everyone does — which is no longer totally shocking because the Dolphins Hall of Fame quarterback retired in 2000.

“It’s interesting when people come in and they meet [new coach Brian Flores] and Dan Marino,” general manager Chris Grier told John Congemi for the team’s web site. “If guys don’t know Dan Marino, I’m like, ‘I don’t know if this guy knows football.’”

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article226770874.html

Meanwhile, Grier plans to place more stock in what he witnesses off the field than on the field at the Combine.

“It’s the old Parcellism, Underwear Olympics,” Grier said, referring to his former Dolphins boss, Bill Parcells.

“People fall in love with guys that work out well in shorts when nobody is hitting them,” Grier added. “For me, it’s the interview process, that’s very important for us to make sure we get the right types of people in the organization, to find out their level of maturity, intelligence and how they interact with people. The hard part today with kids is everyone is on their cell phones and nobody knows how to communicate with people.”

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/barry-jackson/article226770874.html

I agree. Watching the tape is more important than what happens in Indy. People that can't get enough of this stuff{myself included) will sit and watch, but the most important thing is what the kid did while he was on the field. Now if there is an issue that comes up, a discrepancy between the tape and times that do not match, that is something to look at.

 

[mrbunglez]

They’re looking for smart high character guys who are dedicated. That trumps everything else no matter how good they look in underwear.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Conversely, Grier and co fell in love with Harris, who had red flags on tape and even bigger red flags that showed up in Indianapolis. As with everything in life, balance is key.

 

[SCLSU Mud Dogs]

Conversely, Grier and co fell in love with Harris, who had red flags on tape and even bigger red flags that showed up in Indianapolis. As with everything in life, balance is key.

They were hardly the only ones, though. Many of the guys who scout for a living in the media had high grades on Harris. Mayock most notably, who is now a GM.

Lance Zierlein had him as a first round grade. http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/charles-harris?id=2558001
Mayock had Harris as his 15th overall player. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ocks-2017-nfl-draft-top-100-prospect-rankings
Matt Miller had him 17th overall. https://bleacherreport.com/articles...tt-millers-top-overall-player-rankings#slide2

 

[NoblePhin]

Maybe the Wide 9 was a horrible fit for Harris? Who knows, maybe he looks better in this defense than the super stretched out wide end that is supposed to have elite burst and bend to get to the QB.

 

[ChambersWI]

Conversely, Grier and co fell in love with Harris, who had red flags on tape and even bigger red flags that showed up in Indianapolis. As with everything in life, balance is key.

Yeah I whiffed on Harris too. The lack of athleticism was a concern but that first step at times was almost Wake like. Last year he was disruptive even if the numbers didnt reflect it. This year he looked completely lost like he was thinking too much.

 

[j-off-her-doll]

Yeah I whiffed on Harris too. The lack of athleticism was a concern but that first step at times was almost Wake like. Last year he was disruptive even if the numbers didnt reflect it. This year he looked completely lost like he was thinking too much.

I think we all have biases, and it can be hard to understand our own biases. But, if we can correctly identify key factors for successful players, we can determine which players represent outliers. From there, we can be more discerning about which outliers we favor. My issue was never that people liked Harris - but that, with few exceptions, those who liked him didn't recognize him someone who would be an outlier if successful.

Going back to biases, Harris is the type of player that tends to fool people. He was a snap-jumper with a sweet spin move.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Well, I agree with Grier that if a guy doesn't know who Marino is - you probably don't want to draft him. I'd never really thought about it in exactly those terms before, but I agree it's something that seems irrevelant, especially with all else that goes on in the "evaluation process" - but in reality it tells you a lot more about the player than all the other measurables or tape. Good call.

On the other hand, I don't really like the dismissive tone towards the combine testing and loyalty to 'Parcellisms'. If they don't start paying attention to workout numbers and athleticism with pass rushers, they'll just keep drafting Charles Harris'. Pitiful.

 

[ckparrothead]

Scientific testing should always have an integral place in talent evaluation.

Scouts and others constantly over-estimate their own ability to differentiate and categorize speed on film.

If you sat someone down, WITHOUT a stopwatch, and had him watch a group of DBs, LBs, RBs, WRs, and TEs run the forty yard dash, asking them to make notes so that they could turn around and rank their speeds, do you think they'd be accurate?

They'd have guys down as like a 4.37 that actually ran more like a 4.55.

It's hard. But people always tend to say that the Combine type athletic testing doesn't matter, that "it's all on the tape".

Well, if it's all on the tape for you, I hope you're using some god damned sophisticated methods of analyzing those athletic abilities off the tape.

Reality is, to the extent that the scouts don't care about the Combine, it's usually because they feel pretty confident they already have these numbers...from head trainers at the colleges who have been testing and training these kids for years.

This is one reason I get itchy about the throwing velocity stuff. If it can be tough sometimes to recognize when a 40 yard dash was a 4.4 versus a 4.55, do you realize how tough it would be to see whether a football, that is traveling literally 2-3x as fast, was going 55 mph versus 48 mph?

I think a pretty big key in evaluating is to not over-estimate yourself. Hell there's practically 1,000 pages of curriculum on that subject in CFA testing.

 

[ChambersWI]

Well, I agree with Grier that if a guy doesn't know who Marino is - you probably don't want to draft him. I'd never really thought about it in exactly those terms before, but I agree it's something that seems irrevelant, especially with all else that goes on in the "evaluation process" - but in reality it tells you a lot more about the player than all the other measurables or tape. Good call.

On the other hand, I don't really like the dismissive tone towards the combine testing and loyalty to 'Parcellisms'. If they don't start paying attention to workout numbers and athleticism with pass rushers, they'll just keep drafting Charles Harris'. Pitiful.

I think there is a happy medium but there is some valid concerns as to why the combine isnt always the best indicator. Now it shouldn't be ignored but also not the end all be all. But Grier has always said his favorite part of the combine is the interviews.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I think there is a happy medium but there is some valid concerns as to why the combine isnt always the best indicator. Now it shouldn't be ignored but also not the end all be all. But Grier has always said his favorite part of the combine is the interviews.

Interviews aren't the end all be all either. Certainly not for pass rushers. That's how they ended up taking Harris in the 1st round - apparently they loved his interview and discarded the red flags in terms of workouts and tape. Not a good recipe for finding productive pass rushers, and certainly not the best idea when reaching for one with clearly better players available that also would've filled needs. Like cornerback.

Certainly weigh all factors when you're fixing to spend a draft pick. However, if you're going to err one way or the other with pass rushers - go with the physical upside over the interview more often than not. Furthermore, it'd be hard to convince me Charles Harris in reality is a better interview than T.J. Watt, or Carl Lawson, or Tre'Davious White to begin with. Nevermind the fact they were also better players.

 

[djphinfan]

Well, I agree with Grier that if a guy doesn't know who Marino is - you probably don't want to draft him. I'd never really thought about it in exactly those terms before, but I agree it's something that seems irrevelant, especially with all else that goes on in the "evaluation process" - but in reality it tells you a lot more about the player than all the other measurables or tape. Good call.

On the other hand, I don't really like the dismissive tone towards the combine testing and loyalty to 'Parcellisms'. If they don't start paying attention to workout numbers and athleticism with pass rushers, they'll just keep drafting Charles Harris'. Pitiful.

I agree Slim.

I think it's important to evaluate the guy who does our evaluating..we haven't been good at the most important part of the game, acquisition of talent.

what he said and how he said was a red flag for me, not the end all be all but a red flag nonetheless.

Grier and others who mock the process, is unacceptable really for someone who gets paid to evaluate talent and be as right as possible..If your the GM I expect you to have an intelligent response as to how you use this forum to your advantage.

For me I'm looking for the players athletic ceiling and floor, I wanna know what kind of coverage in space I have from the players skillset, I'm looking for isolated position specific movement, Hi' level coordination within the responsibilities of that position.

Listen if we didn't have it, then Ok, its all based on film, even playing field, but the fact that we do, to study movement, mechanics, and technique allows us to be more accurate on the projection.

If you are a coach you can see what possibilities the player can reach as far as coverage in space, and I don't mean like a corner covering a receiver, I mean like spatial coverage, How far can the o-lineman reach on the stretch zone run, what kind of space can this corner cover if im playing zone, what are my boundaries.You can detect some innate things in isolation that can allow you to see what you may need to do from a coaching aspect to get this player better once you draft him..

The Physique is really important, Watching players standing there in their underwear is mockable, for the ones who don't know what to look for.

Of course the interview process.

 

[dolphintodd]

I am not sure it matters what defense we play when the TE can whooop your ass.

 

[hoops]

Hard to put any stock in this with Grier when we just drafted Mike Gesicki top 50