Will this finally be the year that Bob Kuechenberg gets inducted to the HOF???

[jg772006]

I am sure that all Miami Dolphin fans are depressed at the fact that we were 1-15, nearly staring down the barrel of an 0-16 season. It is hard to look at any of the “positives†that this team has because most of the time, we always dwell on the negatives. Yet some positives have happened lately. We got B. Parcells as our New Head of Football Operations, and T. Sparano is our new head coach. So its kind of exciting to look ahead to the future. However, lets step aside from our current team, and look into the past once again, and debate one of the most hotly contested arguments in not just Miami Dolphins history, but in NFL history as well. A question that Dolfans have dealt with for the past six years, and going on a seventh, and hopefully will be a positive in the coming weeks:


Does former Miami Dolphins Offensive Guard Bob Kuechenberg deserve enshrinement into the NFL Hall of Fame?


Back in Nov., the NFL announced the 26 semi-finalists for the NFL Hall of Fame...an impressive list that includes Cris Carter, Darrell Green, Andre Reed, Derrick Thomas among others. When i saw Bob on the list, i was like "oh god...here we go again". Certainly everyone on the list deserves enshrinement, but only between 4-7 can get in every year. Then this past week, the Hall of Fame committee trimmed it down from 26 semi-finalists to 17 finalists, which include the 2 senior nominees of Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas. Now they will meet the day before the Super Bowl with their list of finalists to make their decision on who deserves to get in. Once that happens, the Hall of Fame committee with have the opportunity once again torture all Miami fans and the 1972 Undefeated Team for not enshrining Bob Kuechenberg.

So now its Bob's 7th consecutive year where he made the finalists list. In the past six years, he missed the cut each year. The question is why?


Here are the positives with Bob that go "for" his enshrinement:

He played for the Dolphins from 1970-1984, being a part of all five of Miami's AFC Championships, and their Super Bowl Championships in the 70s which obviously included their 1972 Undefeated season. He was selected to Six Pro Bowls (1974-1975, 1977-1978, 1982-1983), Three time First (1975, 1978) or Second (1977) Team All-Pro, and a Three time All-AFC selection (1974-1975, 1978). He was extremely durable, spending time at not only guard, but at center, left tackle (the hardest position on the line), and even took on long snapping responsibilities as well. Playing in 196 career games, he also had consecutive starting streaks of 53, 42, and 49 games. That’s extremely consistent for any offensive lineman.

However, what works "against" Bob Kuechenberg's enshrinement?

It has be argued numerous times, that the number one reason Bob is not yet in, is mainly because of the fact that he was not the best offensive linemen on the Dolphins during his tenure with the team. Ok…I'll admit, that is correct. Jim Langer and Larry Little were certainly phenomenal and certainly deserving of the Hall of Fame. But the three of them, Jim, Larry, and Kooch were all great because they complimented each other. They were one of the greatest interior offensive lineman trios' in the history of the NFL. That didn't work against Jim or Larry since those two have long been inducted, but it certainly has worked against Bob. Many say that Bob was only as successful as he was because of Jim and Larry. I don't find that to be true, but it is what the committee believes.



So once again this year, the NFL Hall of Fame committee will once again have the opportunity to right a wrong. The question is...Will they? Bob has become so close in getting elected, its disgusting...mainly on three certain years of induction.

In 2002, when they announced the "preliminary" nominees for the Hall of Fame, they announced that Bob was an AUTOMATIC finalist. That has never happened before in the history of their selection process. Why would you make someone an automatic finalist when you announce the preliminary nominees, but not put him in? It does not make sense. Bob was one of the final seven in the 2002 HOF class, and he and Bill Parcells were shafted that year. That was wrong, especially since at that time, you could put seven in the hall. I think it was because Nick Buoniconti suggesting in his Hall of Fame speech one year prior, to consider Bob for election. In 2002, he was nominated as a finalist when the preliminary nominees were announced, and made it to the final seven...Result, he did not get in.

In 2003, an injustice happened. Joe DeLamielluere, who played offensive guard for the Bills in the 60s and 70s, was elected to the Hall of Fame mainly because he was the offensive guard that helped produce the NFL's first 2,000 yard rusher (O.J. Simpson). I won't get into detail, but one might argue that Bob's credentials are even better that Joe's, which they are. Bob won more championships, and was elected to more Pro Bowls. If Joe got in for allowing the first 2,000 yard rusher, then Bob should get in being a part of allowing for the first time in NFL history...two 1,000 yard rushers in the same season (Csonka and Morris in 1972).

Then in 2004, the Hall of Fame committee did something absolutely disgusting to Bob. As a matter of fact, this was the second time it happened to Bob. When the Hall of Fame committee do their selection process of the 15 finalists, they first trim in down from 15 to 10, then 10 to 6. Then when they get it down to 6, it is a simple yes or no vote to each of the remaining six on who gets in and who gets out. The final six in 2004 were Bob Brown, Carl Eller, John Elway, Bob Hayes, Barry Sanders, and Kooch. Kooch and Hayes were shafted. How can you deny someone of the Hall of Fame when he makes the final six, especially when you can put in a maximum of six in the hall each year (with a rule change this year, a max. of seven can get in this year). To me, that is just wrong...denying someone of the highest achievement in football like that. This was the second time it happened to Kooch just liek in 2002.

From 2005-2007, Bob was selected as a finalist, but did not even make it passed the top 7 cut. Geez, how long can one man remain patient by waiting to get his call? In Kooch's case, guarding Alan Page in Super Bowl VIII was easier. By the way, if Alan Page (the greatest defensive tackle of all time) is in the Hall of Fame (which he is), then Bob should certainly should be in because Bob kicked his rear end in that game, even with a broken arm. That remains as one of the greatest performance’s by an offensive lineman in Super Bowl history.

One final thing working against Kooch is time. He only has this year and next year as a modern-era nominee. When a player retires, he has five years to wait before he becomes eligible. After that, he has 20 years of modern-era eligibility to get in. If he does not get in during that 20 year span, he can only get in as a senior nominee which means he will have to wait longer. Bob retired after the 1984 season, became eligible in 1990, and has waited ever since.

So what will happen this year when the committee meets the day before the Super Bowl of elect their enshrines for the Hall of Fame Class of 2008? By looking at the list (go to NFLhof.com to see the list) I can already pick out one or two names that I KNOW will get in (Darrell Green is a certain first ballot Hall of Famer). But will Kooch get in...will he EVER get in?

Personally, I would vote him in, and he certainly deserves to get in, however thinking in the way that the Hall of Fame committee thinks, I don't think they will ever elect him...not in the next two years. Over the past few years, the committee has constantly snubbed guys that deserve enshrinement (Monk, Grimm, D. Thomas, L.C. Greenwood, etc.), and instead put in guys that have had trouble with the law, deserve to wait a while, or just flat out don't belong in the Hall of Fame at all (Michael Irvin).

So once again, Dolphin fans will have to deal with this annoying question that is brought up in the months of November to February yet once again for the seventh year in a row.

Will this finally be the year that Bob Kuechenberg gets his call into the NFL Hall of Fame?

If I voted this is who I would put in, if I had my max. of seven:
Darrell Green - he is a first ballot lock

Randy Gradishar - his last year of eligibility before he goes on the senior ballot

Ray Guy - greatest punter of all time, we need at least one punter in the hall

Bob Kuechenberg - hes got this year and next year on the modern-era ballot to get in...he has waited long enough

Art Monk - its a disgrace that Art Monk has yet to get in, even more of a disgrace that Michael Irvin got in before him
(if u look closely at the list and past lists, Guy, Kuechenberg, and Monk have been selected as finalists the most times on this list, but have yet to get in: Guy - 7, Kuechenberg - 7, Monk - 8)

Derrick Thomas - best sacking LB of the 90s

Marshall Goldberg - played football for 5 years, then went on a two year hiatus to serve and defend our country in WWII before coming back and playing three more years.


However...here are my predictions on how the Hall of Fame committee will vote:
Cris Carter - deserves to get it, but not this soon...Monk should get in before him

Darrell Green - like i said, hes a first ballot lock

Randy Gradishar - I think the committeee will be sympathetic since this is his last year on the modern-era ballot

Marshall Goldberg and Emmitt Thomas - Since 2005, both senior nominees have gotten in, and since 1998 at least one senior nominee has gotten in

Paul Tagliabue - he did alot for the NFL, but he should be made to wait


Notice I only put six players when I can choose seven...The committee, being as dumb as they are, will probably not even select their maximun of seven. Instead theyll choose between 4-6 and will continue to get backed up even more.

What do you all think?

 

[andyahs]

I am very biased when it comes to players for the Dolphins like Bob Kuechenberg and say yes every year but have given up hope for his induction. He was one of my all time favorite 'Team' players and just a pure dedicated hard worker on the line.

 

[adamprez2003]

yes because of the media hype this year regarding the patriots going undefeated. You hyped the accomplishment all year and now you got a guy who was on the first and hopefully only team to ever do it. Call it a guilt vote but he gets in this year

 

[Roman529]

Jake Scott should have been in the Hall already...even before Kooch. :unsure:

 

[TX-FinFan]

I think the only thing holding Art Monk up is his low # of TD catches (68) over 16yrs.

 

[steeda]

I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this post. Personally, I didn't realize that Kooch was burned that many times in the past by the HOF committee, it's really a shame.

Who knows what the committee thinks when they're voting people in, but Kooch definitely deserves the recognition for his NFL achievements.

 

[whatsburning]

Six Pro Bowls, Four Super bowls with two trophies, 15 seasons as a mainstay on the O-line. That's a HOFamer in my book.

 

[DonShula84]

If the guy will shut up about Charlie Weis and Notre Dame, he's got my vote.

 

[Mr.Majestik]

Kooch doesn't deserve to be in the Hall.

How many times must we review this? Kooch isn't in the Hall of Fame because he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Every other lineman from Kooch's era that is currently enshrined, were named All-Pro at least six times. Kooch earned the distinction only three. There are several other offensive lineman who played when Kooch played, that have as many Pro Bowls, and as many All-Pro designations, a couple at the more difficult tackle positions--George Kunz of the Colts, and Russ Washington of the Chargers--who are not in the Hall of Fame, and are not even discussed for inclusion in the Hall of Fame. Where is the fairness in that? Where do you draw the line? Rich Saul of the LA Rams played in the seventies and early eighties, he was named to as many Pro Bowls as Kooch, he played center and guard, and he's not going to get in either, even though every Rams fan is as adamant about his inclusion as Dolphins' fans are about Kooch's. What about Patriot/Oiler guard Leon Gray? A six-time first, or second-team All-Pro in the seventies and early eighties, do we hear his name mentioned at all? Who do you think was clearing the way for Earl Campbell?

And to say a great crime was perpetrated by the Hall when Joe D. was inducted rather than Kooch is to elevate stupidity to symphonic levels. Joe DeLamielleure was named to the seventies All-Decade team, not Kooch. Joe D. was first, or second-team All-Pro eight freaking times! Only John Hannah and Gene Upshaw, considered by many to be the greatest guards in the history of the game were named to more.

You are under the mistaken impression that the more often a guy is a finalist, the more indicative he is of being inducted. This isn't true at all. There are guys that have been inducted that just shouldn't be there. Art Monk isn't in the HOF because he was only named to 3 Pro Bowls in a 16-year career. All at the beginning of his career. How is that Hall worthy? He was 31st in career touchdowns. How is that Hall worthy? Tim Brown, Andre Reed, Cris Carter, Henry Ellard, Jerry Rice, Jame Lofton, Steve Largent and Irving Fryar, whose careers had significant overlap with Monk's, had more receiving yardage then Monk. Michael Irvin had 7 thousand-yard seasons, Monk had 5. A lot of people cried foul about Irvin getting in when Monk isn't in, but how is this controversial? Irvin only has 3 fewer touchdowns, and 800 fewer yards then Monk, but Monk played 5 years longer than he did. Irvin has more Pro Bowls, and just as many Super Bowl rings.

 

[cnc66]

How many times must we review this? Kooch isn't in the Hall of Fame because he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Every other lineman from Kooch's era that is currently enshrined, were named All-Pro at least six times. Kooch earned the distinction only three. There are several other offensive lineman who played when Kooch played, that have as many Pro Bowls, and as many All-Pro designations, a couple at the more difficult tackle positions--George Kunz of the Colts, and Russ Washington of the Chargers--who are not in the Hall of Fame, and are not even discussed for inclusion in the Hall of Fame. Where is the fairness in that? Where do you draw the line? Rich Saul of the LA Rams played in the seventies and early eighties, he was named to as many Pro Bowls as Kooch, he played center and guard, and he's not going to get in either, even though every Rams fan is as adamant about his inclusion as Dolphins' fans are about Kooch's. What about Patriot/Oiler guard Leon Gray? A six-time first, or second-team All-Pro in the seventies and early eighties, do we hear his name mentioned at all? Who do you think was clearing the way for Earl Campbell?

And to say a great crime was perpetrated by the Hall when Joe D. was inducted rather than Kooch is to elevate stupidity to symphonic levels. Joe DeLamielleure was named to the seventies All-Decade team, not Kooch. Joe D. was first, or second-team All-Pro eight freaking times! Only John Hannah and Gene Upshaw, considered by many to be the greatest guards in the history of the game were named to more.

You are under the mistaken impression that the more often a guy is a finalist, the more indicative he is of being inducted. This isn't true at all. There are guys that have been inducted that just shouldn't be there. Art Monk isn't in the HOF because he was only named to 3 Pro Bowls in a 16-year career. All at the beginning of his career. How is that Hall worthy? He was 31st in career touchdowns. How is that Hall worthy? Tim Brown, Andre Reed, Cris Carter, Henry Ellard, Jerry Rice, Jame Lofton, Steve Largent and Irving Fryar, whose careers had significant overlap with Monk's, had more receiving yardage then Monk. Michael Irvin had 7 thousand-yard seasons, Monk had 5. A lot of people cried foul about Irvin getting in when Monk isn't in, but how is this controversial? Irvin only has 3 fewer touchdowns, and 800 fewer yards then Monk, but Monk played 5 years longer than he did. Irvin has more Pro Bowls, and just as many Super Bowl rings.

wow.. this post could be full of .........

 

[MrClean]

How many times must we review this? Kooch isn't in the Hall of Fame because he doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Every other lineman from Kooch's era that is currently enshrined, were named All-Pro at least six times. Kooch earned the distinction only three. There are several other offensive lineman who played when Kooch played, that have as many Pro Bowls, and as many All-Pro designations, a couple at the more difficult tackle positions--George Kunz of the Colts, and Russ Washington of the Chargers--who are not in the Hall of Fame, and are not even discussed for inclusion in the Hall of Fame. Where is the fairness in that? Where do you draw the line? Rich Saul of the LA Rams played in the seventies and early eighties, he was named to as many Pro Bowls as Kooch, he played center and guard, and he's not going to get in either, even though every Rams fan is as adamant about his inclusion as Dolphins' fans are about Kooch's. What about Patriot/Oiler guard Leon Gray? A six-time first, or second-team All-Pro in the seventies and early eighties, do we hear his name mentioned at all? Who do you think was clearing the way for Earl Campbell?

And to say a great crime was perpetrated by the Hall when Joe D. was inducted rather than Kooch is to elevate stupidity to symphonic levels. Joe DeLamielleure was named to the seventies All-Decade team, not Kooch. Joe D. was first, or second-team All-Pro eight freaking times! Only John Hannah and Gene Upshaw, considered by many to be the greatest guards in the history of the game were named to more.

You are under the mistaken impression that the more often a guy is a finalist, the more indicative he is of being inducted. This isn't true at all. There are guys that have been inducted that just shouldn't be there. Art Monk isn't in the HOF because he was only named to 3 Pro Bowls in a 16-year career. All at the beginning of his career. How is that Hall worthy? He was 31st in career touchdowns. How is that Hall worthy? Tim Brown, Andre Reed, Cris Carter, Henry Ellard, Jerry Rice, Jame Lofton, Steve Largent and Irving Fryar, whose careers had significant overlap with Monk's, had more receiving yardage then Monk. Michael Irvin had 7 thousand-yard seasons, Monk had 5. A lot of people cried foul about Irvin getting in when Monk isn't in, but how is this controversial? Irvin only has 3 fewer touchdowns, and 800 fewer yards then Monk, but Monk played 5 years longer than he did. Irvin has more Pro Bowls, and just as many Super Bowl rings.

Kooch was in the Pro Bowl though six times, and that is a measure of greatness too. The years were '74, '75, '77, '78, '82 and '83. In '78 btw, he made it while starting 7 of the 15 games he played in at left tackle.
IMO, Kooch was THE BEST, and the toughest OL we had on the Dolphins from the 1970s. The only reason he hasn't made it so far is because three of his line mates already made it and having four from one era from the same team's OL would be unusual.

Good post though and you do make some very good points. In the HOF of every major sport I'd guess we could find guys who aren't in that were better than some who are in, or at least an argument could be made that they were.
Though it's not fair probably, overall team success leads to more players from that team making the hall when compared to players of equal or better ability who toiled on less successful teams while surrounded by less talented players, which didn't give them the chance to equally showcase their ability.
I agree about Leon Gray. Hopefully he makes the hall someday.

 

[Mr.Majestik]

Re:

wow.. this post could be full of .........

[mod] Keep this thread ON TOPIC please - everyone. [/mod]

I would love to see an argument about Kooch's inclusion in the Hall of Fame that doesn't simply rattle off the vital statistics. Kuechenberg's candidacy for the Hall of Fame doesn't occur in a vacuum. He's competing against other greats from his era. Someone please explain why Kuechenberg belongs in the Hall, but guys with as many, if not more Pro Bowls and All Pro awards are not even discussed for inclusion? If Kuechenberg why not Dennis Harrah? Russ Washington? George Kunz? Leon Gray? All the 70s era linemen currently in the HOF had more Pro Bowls and more All-Pro awards then Kuechenberg. Tom Mack for instance had 11 Pro Bowls and 11 All Pro awards. Unfortunately for Kuechenberg, he played in an era when the AFC had more great offensive linemen then they had Pro Bowl spots--Langer, Little, Upshaw, Shell, Hannah, Webster, and DeLaimelleure, and the guys not in--Leon Gray, Russ Washington, Winston Hill, George Kunz, etc. How many of these guys are we going to enshrine?

We see madness in the Hall voting all the time. I have nothing against Harry Carson's induction into the Hall of Fame, but what about Dr. Doom, Robert Brazile? He redefined the linebacker position in the 3-4. Lawrence Taylor modeled his game after Brazile, but because Carson played for 2 Super Bowl winners, and Brazile played for the Luv Ya Blue Oilers, he gets shafted. Lions' TE Charlie Sanders was recently inducted for no explicable reason when there were seven, or eight TEs who played when he did who were better players, on better teams.

 

[late again]

wow.. this post could be full of .........

Exactly...as much in disagreement over the RW saga...that's how much in agreement we are with the whole Kooch & the HOF issue. To me it's a travesty that the guy isn't in yet. You don't use only stats and numbers to measure a person's greatness. Nonetheless, his numbers were still comparable. On the other hand, the guy had more heart than 90% of the league. So how do ya ignore a guy like that?
I think it's just political. There are some who hate the attention the '72 team gets and don't want to see any more of them in the HOF. My own homeristic viewpoint is that, football being the ultimate team sport there is an argument to be made for every one who started that year.

 

[endorPHINS72]

I'd love to see Kuech get in this year. The guy is a die hard Dolphin for life and gave everything he had everytime he played and did it very well. Give the man his due!!!

 

[Kadiddlehopper]

It should be, but I lost all respect for the HOF when the Cowboy crack head was voted in.