Young and Montana....... | Page 2 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Young and Montana.......

Dan Marino was an amazing QB. But he threw the ball all the time, leading to big numbers. Marino had over 450 pass attempts in 12 seasons during his career. Young and Montana combined only have 8. Marino also has more interceptions than Montana and Young combined. I'm a huge Pitt fan (btw: I think Wanny will do well in the college ranks, especially in recruiting) and love Marino, except when he played Buffalo. But if you are going to credit Montana's and Young's success to the West Coast System then you have to credit some of Marino's success to the Dolphins passing system. Also we must realize that around the time of the class of '83 the NFL had just restricted rules for defenses, like instituting the 5 yard bump zone. When comparing the stats of QB's in different eras one must consider that.

Montana was the original Tom Brady. He wasn't always flashy, and he did play with a good team, but he won games. LOTS of games. He did have Jerry Rice, but not for his first SB against the Bengals. Marino had great talent as well, though he always lacked a good running game.

Young IMHO was a better QB than Montana, he was just on worse teams, FA tore up the 49ers as did the leaving of Bill Walsh.

All three of them were great QB's, but ultimately this conversation doesn't really matter. Because Jonny Unitas was the greatest QB of all time, anyone who says anything different is commiting blasphemy! I guess you could mention Sammy Baugh as well, he led the NFL in Passing yards and TD's, Int's, and punting average in the same season. We'll probably never see that again.

stats:
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=238
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=252
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=154
 
PerfectSZN said:
I have another thing to say. How many SB's would Miami have been in if the defense simply could have stopped Thurman Thomas? And by stop I mean giving up 90 yards or less a game. Face it, the defense lost Miami all those chances of winning a SB.
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Thanks Perfect, I am so happy that someone remembered those days when DAN was great only to be undone by Olivadottis "prevent defense." In a sad way I kind of understand why Shula was not asked to present DAN. SHula's overwhelming loyalty to Tom Olivadatti is the reason DAN is ringless. I love Shule, but should have kept Ansparger. Oh well, thats all in the books now. Lets just show mad love for DAN on sunday!
 
Teenwolf said:
Marino had no talent?

He only had the best offensive line in the league and the best center ever in front of him for 10 years! Lets not forget that Duper and Clayton were in the top 5 recievers of the NFL during their prime - Possibly the 2nd best punter in the late great Reggie Roby so field position was good. The best coach there ever was..................

I'm a Dolphin through and through but some of you guys make it sound like Marino used to play with a bunch of donkeys and have one arm tied around his bollox!

The bare fact is that to rate the greatest quarterback, the first thing you would ask is - how many Super Bowls did he win? 0

It hurts me as much as you guys but never say he had no talent to work with - the Dolphins had plenty of talent in every department during '84, '85, '86!

If you were to ask me - Who is the best pure passer the NFL has ever seen? Hands down Marino

But for me, Montana is the most complete QUARTERBACK to ever play the game that I have seen plenty of footage of - I cant really comment on Unitas and Baugh as I have not seen as much footage of these guys.

And remember - this is my opinion and I respect yours!

OK, so you say best center for 10 years? 7 years! The release Marino had is what kept him from being sacked. That and the ability to (as said by Walsh) move inside the pocket better than anybody. He stated that Dan knew how to operate an offense and operate in the pocket like no other qb. If you look at Duper and Clayton, they left w/ many good years left in them, and they never posted a 1000yd season again. Marino just kept putting #s' up regardless if you were his wr.

Shula has what,3/4 Super Bowls. Look at Lambardi, look at Halas, look at Landry, there are many great coaches. You can not say onr is head over heels better than the other.
What Marino did not have was a good D now DID HE?

D rank 1st 15 yrs.19,19,23,26,26,26,24,7,25,10,20,19,16,18,26)

That is 10 years in the bottom 10 in the NFL and 6 in the bottom 5 and 3 ranked 3rd to last!

Montana was like 1,1,24(had 3 or 4 wins is all),8,7,2,1,3 or something close to that. I am not guaranteeing those are exact but I guarantee that he only had 1 ranked 24th and the rest were top 3 w/ several #1 and 2's and a 7th and 8th. That is hard to lose w/ along w/ the pro-bowl talent on both side of the ball.

W/ the points Marino put up and a D that held the opponet out of the endzone Marino would be at 75-80- win %.

A hall of famer was talking about Favre, Star and I believe Graham today. Comparing them as leadres and ranking them. He said Starr or Graham called the plays and that that took more, like being a field general, scanning the D, picking the blocking scheme and calling routes w/ quick accurate decisions. They were the OC also. That takes more than a qb is doing today. Today's qbs' have that done for them. That makes the older guys better leaders.


HMMMM, does that apply for all QBs' or just the ones not named Marino?

Stephenson said today that when Marino was told a play and he did not think it would work, Marino would start calling blocking schemes, routes and all sorts of stuff. He then said something to the effect that he would tell Dan that it would not work, they would get killed and Marino would calmly tell him not to worry about it, and they did not have time to discuss it. He then said they would run the play and he would look up through the confusion and the ball is 40 yards down field.

He made the offense up as he went at times I guess. That is something Montana never did! Nor Elway!

Remember that Marino made those players better. The OL too. Stephenson even said it.
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Jim Kelly must be better than Marino then because he called all of his own plays in the K-Gun offense! (-:
 
Its not really that Marino played with no talent just a bunch less than Montana or Young. Theres no question whatsover that Marino would have won multiple superbowls with the hall of famers on the 49ers squads. Marino played with 1 hall of famer, Dwight Stephenson and a bunch of solid players, Montana/Young had alltime great teams.
 
Vessel17 said:
Dan Marino was an amazing QB. But he threw the ball all the time, leading to big numbers. Marino had over 450 pass attempts in 12 seasons during his career. Young and Montana combined only have 8. Marino also has more interceptions than Montana and Young combined. I'm a huge Pitt fan (btw: I think Wanny will do well in the college ranks, especially in recruiting) and love Marino, except when he played Buffalo. But if you are going to credit Montana's and Young's success to the West Coast System then you have to credit some of Marino's success to the Dolphins passing system. Also we must realize that around the time of the class of '83 the NFL had just restricted rules for defenses, like instituting the 5 yard bump zone. When comparing the stats of QB's in different eras one must consider that.

Montana was the original Tom Brady. He wasn't always flashy, and he did play with a good team, but he won games. LOTS of games. He did have Jerry Rice, but not for his first SB against the Bengals. Marino had great talent as well, though he always lacked a good running game.

Young IMHO was a better QB than Montana, he was just on worse teams, FA tore up the 49ers as did the leaving of Bill Walsh.

All three of them were great QB's, but ultimately this conversation doesn't really matter. Because Jonny Unitas was the greatest QB of all time, anyone who says anything different is commiting blasphemy! I guess you could mention Sammy Baugh as well, he led the NFL in Passing yards and TD's, Int's, and punting average in the same season. We'll probably never see that again.

stats:
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=238
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=252
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=154[/QUOTE]

Baugh had like 10 straight titles 4 in college and 6 in the bigs.

Yes Montana put up better #s' then Montana, he had a better arm.

Marino threw more picks but he threw a hell of a lot more balls. The % is not really higher I do not believe. I know it is far better than Elway's%.

The point about throwing makes the case all that much better. He HAD to carry the team, where Montana could hand the ball of to the likes of Craig.
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Vessel17 said:
Jim Kelly must be better than Marino then because he called all of his own plays in the K-Gun offense! (-:
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Marino called his own plays whenever he wanted! Kelly had a series of plays preselected. Those specific for the K-Gun. Kelly is under rated, but barely sniffs' Marinos jock.(JK)
 
Who was that average back you had? HMMMMMM.... Oh.... OH I remember I think he played for Miami too. Yeah...Yeah.... Thermos, no....no.... Thurman Thomas that is it!!!!!! Kelly had a back to throw to, to hand off to and to block for him.. Kelly had a great team around him. No doubt about it. I hate to say it, but that team was one of the better teams I ever watched. 4 Straight SBs'. Yeah they got beat, but they played great teams, and probably one of the best teams ever. Dallas!

The fact is in Walsh's words Montana was a product of the system and Marino is the system.
 
I ask, John Salley better than Karl Malone, Steve Kerr better than Stockton, Pippen better than Barkley?

Is Dillon better than Barry?
TD better than Sweetness!
Holt better than Moss?
Branch better than T Bown?

How is it that Marino is the sole reason the Fins never won a Super Bowl?
I dare you to look at pro-bowlers on Montan's teams, Elway's teams, and Marino's teams. Look at the HOFers' on Montana's team. More than Marino had pbwlers probably.
 
phin lockeroom said:
why is young going to the hall of fame i beleave they should have waited a lil longer till they brought him in do any of u agree
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AGREE 100%, but it I think it was done on purpose by the HOF to prove a point to all football fans. A SB ring which Young has, does not equal the love and loaylty that a great man and QB like DAN has done for football and his community. ON sunday when the big DAN looks out over the crowd of aqua and orange, I hope he realizes that love from the fans and people he has touched is not something you can wear on a finger! Young was a good QB, but on Sunday when he sees the OCEAN OF AQUA, he will respect and know he was on the same stage with the GREATEST QB of all time!
 
Vessel17 said:
Dan Marino was an amazing QB. But he threw the ball all the time, leading to big numbers. Marino had over 450 pass attempts in 12 seasons during his career. Young and Montana combined only have 8.

stats:
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=238
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=252
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=154
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What are you saying here? It seems as if you are saying that Montana and Young played for a combined 8 seasons. Is that what you meant to say? Montana played for 14 seasons-13 in SF. Young also played for 14 seasons. Marino, incidently played for 16 and had 420 pass attempts. The only stat you got right was that he threw more INTs than Young and Montana combined. You posted these links to stats and didn't bother to read them yourself!:confused2
By the way I do agree that Young was better than Montana. Also I'm a Dolphin, so to me Dan will always be the man; however I do understand why some people will try to make a case for Montana as well as Young being better. There is information over and above the SB argument that could be used. But to me Marino was the best and is still unsurpassed.
 
PerfectSZN said:
Marino had talent on the team in some spots. Montana had a complete team!! Miami still had no real RB and the defense was already going south. Look at the total points allowed in those years.
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Thank you! ;)
 
Montana left, SanFran missed nothing, Young left, San Fran was still good, Garcia stepped in and was putting up better #s' then either ever did.

Sound's like a system thing to me!!!!!
 
Att yds TD Int 3000+yd seasons
Montana 5391 40551 273 139 8
Young 4149 33124 232 107 6
Marino 8358 61361 420 252 13
 
late again said:
What are you saying here? It seems as if you are saying that Montana and Young played for a combined 8 seasons.
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Actually, I was saying that Young and Montana only had 8 seasons with 450 or more passing attempts. So Marino in his career threw the ball more than 450 times 12 times. Young and Montana did that a combined 8 times. Sorry if that wasn't more clear. Basically, Marino's big stats came from throwing the ball constantly. The "throw whenever you want" highlighted his skills just as much as the West Coast offense highlighted the skills of Montana and Young.
 
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