zach thomas better than ray lewis?

[muskrat6392]

Who would you rather get tackled by, Zach or Ray Lewis? If you were an offensive coordinator, would you draw up a play to challenge Zach or Ray Lewis? Being a smarter player doesn't mean being a better player. Besides, every time I see a Raven's game, Ray Lewis is in almost every play. Ray Lewis played a season with a torn bicep. That must have hurt. Someone earlier mentioned Ray Lewis doesn't have heart. He is the heart of Balto's defense. Ray Lewis may have had more talent around him, but he still had the numbers as Zach Thomas.

 

[Avalanche of Wins]

be interesting to see how opinions will change if zach is able to stay healty this year in dallas and leads a very talented team and defense to a super bowl win...

 

[Avalanche of Wins]

Blame the defense for the patriots loss all you want but it was the idiotic decision to throw the ball three straight times in our own territory that lost the game for us versus N.E. run the damn ball and you at least run the clock down. Let me see put the ball in Fielder's hands or Ricky's hmm hard decision. We had 2 minutes and 46 seconds on the clock and we do that crap. We were at the 4 yard line why would we keep trying to pass the ball. We ran a total of 28 seconds off the clock and caused them to use one timeout. Who cares if Ricky Williams had over 180 yards rushing and was going at 6 a clip. Who cares if Fielder was 11 of 25 for a whopping 110 yards. I put all the blame in idiotic playcalling and Jay Fielder's poor play. The defense did fade some but it wasnt thier fault our offense gave the pats the ball back in three at dolphin 33 with plenty of time on clock.

i was at this game sitting in the endzone right where wanny threw it 3 straight. worst time ive ever had at a game. i was tanutning those jerks with my fins flag all game long when ricky was running wild on them and pornstache goes and does that. makes me sick to my stomach. dont forget the out of bounds kickoff by mare...

 

[SpaceMountain16]

It would be interesting to see if they could come up with a logo saying "Miami Football" that suited both of the football tenants of Dolphin Stadium from now on. Then we wouldn't have to worry about the lack of markings for either team.

 

[GRYPHONK]

i was at this game sitting in the endzone right where wanny threw it 3 straight. worst time ive ever had at a game. i was tanutning those jerks with my fins flag all game long when ricky was running wild on them and pornstache goes and does that. makes me sick to my stomach. dont forget the out of bounds kickoff by mare...

Also, don't forget that Chambers DROPPED one of those 3 straight that would have given us the 1st down.

Ricky was getting stuffed the last couple of series. In hindsight, sure, it was horrible playcalling. But I know FOR YEARS many fans were complaining that we lost games or let teams get back in due to conservative playcalling. Many kept saying under Wanny we should have passed more to close out games. I mean why did NE get back in it in the 1st place? Becuase our defense faultered and our rushing attack was very minimal in the 2nd half or atleast in the 4th quarter.

So looking at it I bet our OC and Wanny felt they had to do something, and do it quick to close out the game. Rushing wasn't it.

I am not saying they made the right call, obviously they didn't. But we can't have it both ways. We can't complain how conservative he was and he let teams back in the games, and then complain that he wasn't conservative enough and it lost us the game.

Simple if the defense makes a stop we win that game. If Mark Royals doesn't shank a 2 punts we win that game. If Mare doesn't kick one out of bounds we win that game. If Chambers holds on to an almost perfectly thrown ball, we win that game.

I find it funny people STILL wanna blame Fiedler or Wanny for that loss.

Question... Does the TB Superbowl defense make a stop? They had just as bad an offense

Does the SB Raven defense make that stop? Had just as bad an offense.

Once again, I don't think I have ever heard Lewis say "I was waiting for someone else to make a play"

 

[nyjunc]

While you make good points about the difference in statkeeping (in Singletary's time vs. Thomas's time), you seem to mix opinion with solid debate to present "factual" statements that just aren't proveable.

I'm pretty certain Peter Boulware, Rob Burnett, Duane Starks, Rod Woodson, Chris McAlister and Michael McCrary had a good bit to do with that SB. Saying "they won it because of Ray" doesn't hold water. The Ravens D that year didn't give up only 165 points and hold opponents to 2.7 yards per rush just because of Ray.

Obviously he needed help but he was the best player and leader on an incredible defense. The man is a TWO time Defensive Player of the Year and SB MVP, Zach just doesn't have those credentials.

 

[Phishpunk@WCU]

Ray Lewis was better at the top of his game, and will be remembered as such. He should be, he had the physical gifts that Zach didn't (size and strength). At one point he was the most dominating player on the field every week. But, until Zach's injuries last season he was more consistent year in and year out. Over the last 4 to 5 years Ray Lewis is not the same dominating MLB that he once was, while Zach has played as well as he ever had. Zach is never out of position playing and Ray always was around the ball, but did not seem to have this sixth sense that Zach possessed for knowing what the offense was thinking. Ray's physical abilities made him. When he started to lose those, he showed that he didn't have the football IQ of a Zach Thomas. He began to be out of position, not coming up with the big play we were use to early in his career. That is the big difference between the two, Zach is a smarter football player and Ray was a better physical specimen.

 

[Taysia]

I'm sorry I am a big Zach fan, but when it comes to big plays to change games Ray is the best. he was a one man wrecking machine when they went to the super bowl in 2000. Zach is a good all around player but Ray changed games. Yes I am a DOLFAN!!!!

 

[Charlie Brown]

Zach was a very good player for a long time and Miami built a D around him and never even made a AFC Title Game- never even came close. The Ravens built a D around Ray Lewis and won a Super Bowl.

I'm not taking a shot at Zach but Lewis has been the better player for most of their careers, Lewis is a lock HOfer while Zach is not making the HOF unless he has a really good year or 2 in dallas and Dallas wins it all.

Zach Thomas has more tackles in his career than any current LB in the Hall of Fame, and your saying he wont make it in the hall of fame? c'mon now

 

[DolfanISS]

in '00 Bal's D held Denver to 3 points in the 1st half and 3 for the game,

The Broncos were down to backup QB Gus Frerrotte for that game, don't know how many playoff teams they would have beaten.

At Oak a week after the dolphins were finished in the 1st half at Oak the Ravens shut out the league's #3 scoring offense in the 1st half and allowed only 3 points for the game.

Didn't Sirgusa crush Gannon in this one forcing Oakland to go to an unproven backup QB. I wonder how Miami may have done vs their backup QB?

The bottom line here is single players don't win Super Bowls teams do. If I started a thread about why I thought Chad Pennington was better than Trent Dilfer would you argue that Dilfer has won a Super Bowl so he is the Better QB?

Lewis was great in 2000 when he had Siragusa and Adams in front of him and who wouldn't have been. A year or 2 later I remember him not being so good and hearing from the anchors about how he just doesn't have the horses in fornt of him anymore. Meanwhile Zach Thomas just kept plugging away with the likes of Brian Robinson and Jeff Zgoninia playing in front of him, never heard any excuses.

 

[nyjunc]

The Broncos were down to backup QB Gus Frerrotte for that game, don't know how many playoff teams they would have beaten.

Frerotte started 6 games and Denver averaged 29 points per game in those 6 starts. Baltimore held them to 3.

Didn't Sirgusa crush Gannon in this one forcing Oakland to go to an unproven backup QB. I wonder how Miami may have done vs their backup QB?

Baltimore was already up 10-0 when Gannon was knocked out and Gannon already had 2 INTs. Since your game w/ Oak was over by halftime I'm guessing the result wouldn't have changed.

The bottom line here is single players don't win Super Bowls teams do. If I started a thread about why I thought Chad Pennington was better than Trent Dilfer would you argue that Dilfer has won a Super Bowl so he is the Better QB?

This isn't the argument though, on SB caliber teams certina players make a difference. Ray Lewis made a differenc e in January while Zach and Taylor never have. A healthy Chad was better than Dilfer but Dilfer was a good QB, people forget he took 2 teams to the postseason.

A great QB can make the difference, Indy has had SB caliber teams most of the decade but Manning's poor play in January has held them back. Marino rarely played w/ top talent around him, if he had Manning's teams he would have made a few SBs this decade. It's not black and white as far as winning SBs but when players that are leaders have SB caliber talent around them and they do not lead their teams to SBs they are questioned. There's no reason Miami didn't at least make an AFC Title Game and the fact that they never came close(getting blown out in every div playoff they played in those years) reflects poorly on the leaders of that team.

Lewis was great in 2000 when he had Siragusa and Adams in front of him and who wouldn't have been. A year or 2 later I remember him not being so good and hearing from the anchors about how he just doesn't have the horses in fornt of him anymore. Meanwhile Zach Thomas just kept plugging away with the likes of Brian Robinson and Jeff Zgoninia playing in front of him, never heard any excuses.

Leiws may not have reached the heights he hit in 2000 but he was still a great player after Siragusa, Adams and others left which is why he won the Defensive Player of the Year Award in 2003- his 2nd award which is 2 more than Zach.

Again, this is not an attack on Zach. he was a good to very good player for Miami but he wasn't great while Ray Lewis was/is great.

 

[KnifeOfTheDead]

i do believe Zach is better. Ray has always had one of the best D's in the league, and we kinda rallied around Zach (and JT).

oh, was Zach arrested? 'nuff said.

 

[FORMER FIN1]

I am sure that hurt but even w/ them in other years your D's stunk in the div round and Jason taylor in about 7 postseason games does not have a sack.

That's like saying having Rich Kotite or Al Grogh is not a disadvantage in coaching.:)

 

[nyjunc]

I am sure that hurt but even w/ them in other years your D's stunk in the div round and Jason taylor in about 7 postseason games does not have a sack.

That's like saying having Rich Kotite or Al Grogh is not a disadvantage in coaching.:)

Al Groh was 2-0 against Miami including the monday Night Miracle and one of Kotite's 4 wins came against Miami:D