Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by FinAtic8480, Mar 24, 2013.
I just wish we get another receiving threat besides Wallace.IMO, Hartline to less of a degree and Bess aren't legitimate threats. I want someone that can go like a Tavon Austin or Patterson etc! If defenses think they might have a problem with someone like Wallace? What they heck are they going to think with the addition of another bonafide threat?
This should absolutely be the approach Miami takes let's not "kinda/maybe" be dangerous on offense let's CLEARLY be a problem for NFL defenses.
Hopefully the presence of Wallace will ensure a general improvement of the rest of the teams receivers.
Here's why i'm still nervous! We can all sort of agree Marshall in someways at times required "help" to defend! Essentially, we're saying that in some ways and others Wallace will also require some help. The other receiving complements were exactly the same in Hartline and Bess and now different at QB and TE, RB.....
Is the difference at QB,TE and HB big enough to prevent this season offensively from looking like the 2010 season? IMO, it's borderline and I say to ensure it's clearly different and better get another difference playmaker on offense. IMO, we erred badly when we got rid of Ted Ginn just when we acquired Marshall! Not that Ginn was that great, but because his speed....Well that history now
We seem to give up on alot of players too early and then keep many too long lol. Ginn was a bust and a half as a 1st round pick but still you take a guy that high and he is raw. He is definately better than having Marlon Moore as your third receiver and he can return
Hartline is still a 3 at best. That's why I'm fully confident that given a fair shot (not looking at contract numbers to determine the better player), Matthews will beat him this offseason and we can move Hartline to the Nelson role at the slot.
I completely agree. Ginn flashed a bit as well on some of the 9 routes he ran. I remember the TD against the Jets as well as a TD called back for a leg whip against the texans I believe. Pennington connected with him a bit in 2008 as well... Not to say he woulda been great, bu that speed was something the Offense didn't have with anyone else and he was a good returner... I guess their justification with guys like Moore is his ST play
Out if bounds Ginn...no thx, 9ers can have him.
If anything your post just reiterates my opinion. If Mike is going to be considered the #1 then Hartline is not that ideal #2! Who the hell is going to do something with the ball AFTER the catch? Wallace really isn't that kinda guy and we all know Hartline couldn't break a tackle to save his life. Someone with the size, strength, speed, elusiveness of say a Patterson is the perfect piece to move into that position.
Which looks better?
1) Wallace, Hartline
2) Wallace, Patterson
No brainer to me...
we know Phiblin likes to draft WR in the 2nd or 3rd round.perhaps we can find a guy with speed and can run good routes.the rookie can battle it out with Bess .dont forget Gibson i think he is the Dark Hourse in the wr group.Keller we be a player as well that the other teams have to game plan for.forget about him and you will get burned.we fix the o line and we just may be a team in the likings of the packers or pats.
There are a few things to consider when comparing the offense with Wallace and Marshall. While both a good-great receivers, they're not nearly the same type. You could argue Marshall is better overall than Mike, but when playing with Hartline and Bess, Wallace is a better fit IMO because he brings speed in a unit that was devoid of it. And then you have to ask yourself, is Hartline a better player than he was when Marshall was here? Its deffinately arguable but I beleive so. Bess is Bess, Keller is certainely better in the passing game than Fasano. So yeah overall I do agree we still need to draft another wideout, but I beleive we're better as a unit with Wallace than we were with Marshall.
hartline is getting the blame for ALL of RYAN TANNEHILLS mistakes.
if you tivo'd the games, go back and look and see how many times BH was wide ope for big plays or scores and tanny blew it.
i saw 8 that were certain td's and 11 more that would have been HUGE gains with some real possibilities of more scores.
now, you neer can say if he would have dropped any of those, but, lets say the throw was on target every time. what would you think about hartline then?
people do not want to admit that tanny has a ways to go. he is NOT a franchise qb yet and has some work to do, expecially on his longer throws.
its just hillarious these people who think hartline isnt a worthy starter. had he been with brady or manning or rodgers last year, or even year before, he would have been a PRO BOWL wr. and if tannyhill can improve on his long ball and hit wallace for some big gains and or scores, you will see hartline cleaning up big time on single coverages he will be getting.
My biggest issue is we have the cap space to have Marshall right now. I mean we could have Marshall Wallace Keller Hartline on the slot.. we would definitely be challenging for the division this year with that unit. But as of right now, we're still another offseason to surpass the Patriots.
Well we can say could do and all this with so many scenarios. we also could have Dez bryant already on roster as our receiver instead of just another guy on the dline.
Ireland made two major mistakes with the trade for and the trade away of MArshall.
Since 09, even with Leftwich and Batch throwing at him to bring down the #s, Wallace is the most prolific homerun-catching WR of 30+ yards in the league; and #2 of 25+ yds. He is the game breaker that can fly by a Revis (ala those few magic Teddy Ginn moments) not to mention a run of the mill Sean Smith type CB. He will make a scoreboard difference if he gets in synch with RT17 - both for himself, Hartline, Gibson, Keller and hopefully Matthews. Yeah, it would have been nice to have kept Marshall, but he's a QB-not-named-Cutler cancer and may have not been particularly helpful in the development of Tannehill's maturation and confidence-building. Bottom line: he's not Coach Joe's kind of player so besides that ship having sailed, it's moot - merely ejaculate-devoid mental masturbation to discuss him@here. :idk:
Its a discussion board, people are allowed to talk here. Just like you love to bring up how Flacco > Ryan or like to post that picture of Saban with the headset and Aaron Rodgers, that would also be considered a mental masturbation to discuss on this board.
I'm sorry not buying your argument completely. Did Tanne erred? Absolutely, but your being purposely blind if you don't also acknowledge Hartline was just not good enough on some of those misses....
In make believe world honestly if those exact same throws were attempted with Mike Wallace?
Do you really think things would of still turned out the exact same way?
Name the other time when Hartline caught a deep ball from another QB not named Tannehill? Don't worry I'll wait
All you have to do is look at the mashup someone made of every single time Hartline was targeted in 2012 to understand why he suddenly had his breakout season under Ryan Tannehill. And also to understand why such arguments that Ryan Tannehill 'held Brian Hartline back' are just laughable.
Too ****in funny: one of FH's most consistent purveyers of team negativity, complaining about counter-negativity that conflicts with their tidy world order. :lol2:
baltimore better hope suggs is back to old form cause if not they are gonna struggle to get to the qb without blitzing...upshaw has not shown much high end rush on the edge talents yet...
by the way mike wallace may run 4.33 but he's one of the true burners in the league that actually probably plays faster than he times in pads...that guy just glides as if on a pillow down the field...
You guys talking about Marshall forget one major point. He brings a lot more baggage than good. Not to mention he wants the ball all the time, taking away from the offense's diversity. Just give it up the man was a cancer in the locker room and off the field. He was a moron on the field, burning timeouts, getting stupid penalties, Inc and quitting on patterns. BTW, he really helped Chicago this year. You watch he will slowly suck their soul out of that team also.
And finally in closing your idiotic pipe dream would never happen because of Joe Philbin. He knew what he had with Marshall before they even took the practice field, and he wasn't buying any of that.
Too much pissing and moaning.
Wallace and Keller were great additions and Hartline and Bess deserve a little more respect than they've gotten down in Miami.
I'm excited to see what Philbin has planned.
If people are still pining for Brandon Marshall I don't know what to tell them. I agree that the team did a lousy job of addressing the receiver position last season, but the dude was straight cancer. The Marshall apologists conveniently forget stuff like the 15 yard penalty he cost us when he decided to run over to the sideline and spike a football in Jay Cutler's face, starting a fight in practice with Vontae Davis (Vontae is an idiot child, to be fair) and throwing Matt Moore under the bus, running over him with the bus, and then backing up to get him again.
This. Getting rid of Marshall at that point was fine - not replacing him was the problem.
Not to mention the (7)SEVEN (7) dropped TOUCHDOWNS. Why we we still talking about that guy? I agree with IKEMA. he sucked the life out of Da Bears last year. You watch, Hartline will really benefit from the additions of Wallace and Keller, for all you haters out there.
I read the article and it was a lot of praise and optimism about Wallace and the positive impact he is going to have on the offense. Then I read the responses in this thread and it is three pages of complaining about the team. I would say I am surprised, but I am not really.
People in Dallaa seem to think Bryant is overrated! I'm not sure if he is or isn't but what I do know is that he was recently arrested in Miami and he wouldn't for into the type of players philbin is looking for!
I'm not even one of those guys who believes Wallace is a complete receiver worth the money he's getting. But I find it a bit patronising how they write articles about him to the effect that his major attribute is drawing defenses away from other players. As though he was not contributing anything as a receiver himself.
This guy is going to have over 1000 yards and several TDs. I think we can predict that more or less with certainty (injury free). The icing on the cake will be how he opens it up for Hartline, Gibson the TEs and othe receivers, plus the run game.
Basing an article and several interviews on the gravy part and ignoring the fillet steak is poor journalism, IMO. Wallace is not Clyde Gates.
Hartline had over a 1000 yards, with a rookie QB, no legitimate threat on opposite side, in a year where he was battling injuries and serious illness throughout the offseason. With another year in WCO and the same QB & mike Wallace, I expect simular numbers but 6-10 TDS
I'm sorry if speaking the truth hurts your wittle feelings, not everything is rainbows, butterflies and flowers like some of you paint the Dolphins to be, and I've spoken more neutral than negative, and I don't see anything against the rules about speaking the truth which for the most part I have. Please come at me with posts that I've been wrong about, I'd love to see them.
The ones I'm usually arguing against are the ones who wanted Jim Bates as head coach. :lol: They wanted Cam Cameran to remain as head coach or even become one. :lol: They were begging Ross on their hands and knees to give Sparano another chance. :lol: And they also wanted Wannstedt to get another chance. :lol:
I can list more and more, there is an obvious over attachment to mediocrity from the homers on this site.
I'm on record stating that I may strongly disagree with some of the negative comments but do not dismiss them out of hand like the hard-wired Contrary Marys do the positives, that's providing the poster has demonstrated that he's objective and gives credit when and where do - excepting those who obviously must do it begrudgingly because the positive development is so glaringly obvious that they'd look like imbeciles if not. I respect the opinons of those folks who can show some objectivity, but routinely dismiss, and rightfully so I believe, the hard-wired whining HennyPennians who're conditioned like Dr Pavlov's drooling dogs, to jump on, discount, deride and discredit anything and everything positive not fitting within the deep positional trench they've dug their credibility into They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Tannehill was very bad deep. I did my own statistical analysis of his passing this year on the games I had (didn't have a couple). I considered a long pass one in which it was a "homerun", not one that went for 20 yards or more (like some sites count.) In this case, here are Tannehills numbers:
Left: 1 for 10 with 9 bad passes
Middle: 0 for 3 and all were bad passes
Right: 9 of 16 with 7 bad passes
Tannehill appears to favor the right side deep. He threw very few homerun balls this year, and most of them were bad.
you know something else...wallace wins in the red zone at the los more than you would expect a guy to for his size...he kills people with his initial quickness and burst off the los and his foot speed...i think we can make some hay in the red on some quick stuff all about timing it right..and man i don't want to see sherman use this cat wrong...motion him down to the inside to get off coverage and free releases into his routes...and tannehill has to understand that if this guys even remotely close to even he's leaving so trust him to make a play and throw it up there vertical over the top down the field...i promise you it's damn hard to overthrow this cat in full gallop...damn hard...this is the DEFINITION of blow by guy...
i really think he's gonna fit this o like a glove...don't screw it up mike sherman...protect the qb to give him time and let wallace get down the damn field...and then let er rip...you can bracket that guy a lot but he'll still run by safeties...
there's gonna be voids behind the lbs and in front of the safeties also...the things this guy will do for our o
Hartline had those numbers BECAUSE HE WAS THE ONLY RECEIVER TO THROW TO!!! DUH!!! It won't happen again. With Wallace here, Hartline won't get all the targets and his numbers will drop back to the "average schmo" numbers he deserves...
Well said. I think about the possibilities of how good this offense could be and it boggles my mind that people are complaining about the holes we had last year. Last time I checked, when the Ravens won the Super Bowl, last year ended and our beloved Dolphins have a much different look and feel THIS year and I'm not even talking about the damn logo
this is the one dude in the league that can be losing by 3 yards to a bailing db when big ben would rare back to fire deep and by the time the ball lands be out in front by 2 damn yards and then just run away from everyone...
this cat's sick...get that timing down tannehill
With all due respect, last year is over and the offense has been revamped. The Dolphins last year threw deep because they wanted opposing defenses to think we could move the ball more than 5 yards at a time. This year, we will throw the ball deep because we will be scoring from deep with a lot more regularity, meaning the real challenge for defenses will be stopping Keller, Gibson and Hartline intermediate routes and Bess underneath all the while keeping an eye or two on Wallace. Good luck with that
imagine how a guy like Tyler Eifert could work the seam with Wallace taking the Safeties for a ride!!
He had Hartline and Bess running deep.
That's awesome numbers IMO.
People tend to forget Brandon MArshall was doubled, and sometimes triple teamed, and bess and hartline couldn't do anything about it. They still couldn't score worth a lick. And people also tend to forget that Wallace had antonio Brown and Sanders at WR in Pittsburgh. Both much quicker than the 3 stooges who compromise 75% of miami's WR corps.. I'm sorry, but that's not good enough. Not in this day and age.
I've been saying for years now on this board, how the NFL will eventually be the CFL, as it's becoming more and more like the CFL every day - that's the direction it's going. That's what the league office wants if anyone has been paying attention to what they've been saying for the last 5 years - tons of high scoring. And now you're hearing from so many pundits how the NFL is becoming a "space" league, where it's all about spacing. Well, no kidding.
Bringing in tavon Austin at #12 is a no brainer. Relying on slow pokes like hartline, bess and gibson to bring you a super bowl is silly. The Dolphins need athleticism and speed at the WR positions - especially now since they lost Bush. Wallace is nice but you still have 75% of your WR corps slow, so it hurts Wallace (again in Pitt Wallace had Antonio Brown and Sanders who can really move). And Tavon Austin isn't just a slot WR, you can line him up anywhere on the field . X, Y, Z , in the backfield, you name it. He is an offensive coordinators dream and a major weapon who makes EVERYONE around him better (NONE of hartline, bess or gibson make surrounding players better - hence they are NOT difference makers). Crappy slow guys like fasano and bess will become extinct in the NFL the way the league is going. . When you already have a Mike Wallace, having Austin too is a dream come true scenario - Especially if you can teach Miller how to come out of the backfield better to catch passes, and go in motion to line up in the slot as well - to really place pressure and fear on opposing defenses when you have an Austin in tow
As far as Keller, he doesn't have reliable hands and goes MIA with awful games with awful routes, and he's also what I call a "hat tipper". When he's in defenses are tipped off that it's going to be a pass play (this was a big complaint in NY). He can't block for anything. He's not just bad, he's pretty much totally useless at it. And who knows if he'll even stay healthy.
the dolphins haven't beaten a team with a good QB in 3 years. Against good QB's miami's defense falls flat on its face time and time again- schaub loss, andrew luck, loss giving up the most yards in nfl history against a rookie QB, Brady, both losses..etc. So you better bring in more weapons on offense and hope for the best. And Tavon Austin is that guy. The dolphins won't have the cupcake schedule they had last year, when it was the easiest schedule since 2008. This year's schedule will be pretty difficult and there's still a bunch of holes on this team and not close to enough playmakers on both sides of the ball. I see an 8-8 type year with this schedule (and before anyone chimes in with "we still have a draft", well that just proves my point even more because relying on a bunch of rookies to take you to the top, it never happens.... teams that are not good HAVE to rely on a rookie class, and thats just way too much pressure on players who've never played in the league all at once --- it always fails)
The big difference is, Marshall dropped a lot of passes including many TDs, if Wallace also drops as many passes as Marshall did, then yes, it might starts to looking very similar to 2010. Have a feeling that may not happen this time around.
I don't care "why" we threw deep, I'm just telling you the stats "when we did" throw deep. Go look at South Beaches' breakdown for Wallace in the other thread and you will see that Wallace's numbers are not that much greater than Hartline when it comes to deep passes. I don't think you are going to get the impact deep you think you will. You will get more TD's than Hartline...but don't expect us all of a sudden to start putting up 30 points a game...
Based on the stats I have on Tannehill, the seam is exactly where he is best. He is actually better at mid-range passes in the middle than he is at short passes in the middle...go figure. Getting him a true seam threat would be huge. Keller isn't it IMO...
So, we draft a raw wr in the first round? He has bust written all over him, if we go wr, we have to go Tavon Austin in my opinion.
The Colts seemed to lean on their rookies pretty good last year huh
Well if you're going to refer to the CFL, just look at the Als as one of the best teams the past decade. They've relied just as much on possesion receivers as they did with speed guys, maybe even more. Guys like Cahoun, Richardson, Green arent fast by any means, even related to CFL standards. Cahoun would make the catch and fall but it was still a key catch for a TD or 3rd down. Richardson is SLOW but still a top5 CFL WR, Green is not fast by any means and drops a ton of balls but will make the highlight reel catch and win you the game.
I get what you're saying, but to act like speed alone makes a great receiver is proven to be false. There's alot more that goes into playing the position and if you dont get that, then maybe you should re-assess your football knowledge, or at least not make comparisons when you have no idea what you're talking about...
Wallace, Hartline definitely look better. Patterson will have a hard time deciphering coverages, and if our offensive scheme is as complicated as advertised, he'll be lucky if he starts a game all season. There is a reason he went to 3 colleges in 3 years.
Don't fall for that he's "dumb" as a bag of bricks crap! Nonsense the guy is going to be something at the next level and remember what YOU said about his ability.