Jeff Ireland good at drafting but sucks when it comes to free agents...why?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by fisi, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. fisi

    fisi A True Fan Donator

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    Gotto admit the guy has drastically improved his drafting (shall I say) prowess by this past draft alone, he i also very good at trades but just can't seem to get the right player especially wide recievers through free agency.

    i think one of the reasons is he always wait until its too late to sign a player. Wait and see approach always gurantee one thing and that is scrubs. You either get scrubs or overpays for good talent thats left. Hopefully he strike it rich in FA next year and we could all put that to rest.
     
  2. 13Dolfan87

    13Dolfan87 Scout Team Donator

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    You don't win in the NFL through free agency. Just ask Dan Snyder.
     
  3. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Our starting FA's are Wake, Starks, Soliai (?), Dansby, Burnett, and Marshall on D. Lane, Cog, and Bess on O, with Moore, Gaffney, McD, and Trusnick contributing. I just list what we now have, and don't know where we would be without them. I put a ? on Soliai as he was re-signed, don't recall if he made it to FA or was signed before he got there.

    I believe that we have done better than most other NFL teams in FA but, have not done any research to compare.
     
  4. Dolph N.Fan

    Dolph N.Fan A True Fan

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    Who said Ireland is good at drafting?
     
  5. Nublar7

    Nublar7 Retired Finheaven VIP

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    Good thing the Dolphins are adapting Philbin's Green Bay philosophy of not using free agency and building through the draft.
     
  6. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    I don't think we can say that, at least not yet. IF Peyton wanted to come here, he would be a Dolphin, regardless of what Philbin wanted to do. Ireland still has final say, and next year will tell us a lot more on how we address FA. We will have a TON of money, and HAVE TO spend most of it.
     
  7. Nublar7

    Nublar7 Retired Finheaven VIP

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    Peyton Manning is the obvious exception. All the actions after that Manning derby and comments from Ireland and Philbin point to drafting players and developing them then being big players in the free agency market. Don't be surprised when most of that $50 million cap space goes to retaining players and not a lot of big name free agents from other teams. They might add some low level depth type players in free agency, and maybe they make a run at one big name guy, but the team will be built through the draft.
     
  8. BahamaFinFan78

    BahamaFinFan78 A True Fan

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    Someone post Ireland's drafts since Parcell's gave him full control.
     
  9. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Agree that this is the way it appears, and I'm all for it. I'm thinking we go after one BIG addition, with WR looking to be the best option with who is supposed to be available, and a mid range guy on the OL. JMO

    Imagine, if you will, how this team would have looked with Peyton, for better or worse.
     
  10. Phantom

    Phantom Phantom Donator

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    You will need to have a combination of both to be sucessfull when building a team.
     
  11. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    I think they are both pretty close to the same in a success rate of about 50%. The difference now is that the draft cost a hell of a lot less when you are wrong. FWIW, I think we have done pretty well and, over the last 4 years, would have done better if not for the injuries.

    The trades have been great, in getting Fasano, Bush, and even McD for next to nothing.
     
  12. DolfanDuBbZ~

    DolfanDuBbZ~ Avoid the 'Noid

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    If you want to build through FA, the results can be seen by watching the Eagles. It will be Andy Reid's downfall. That defense is pathetic and was bought and paid for, through FA.

    You have to be able to draft and develop. Something that Philbin seems to understand and embrace.
     
  13. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    IF ya wanna pick on the Phins FA signing, Ya gotta give some facts on who was and was not signed. Saying the Ireland did bad says nothing.
     
  14. Zounds

    Zounds A True Fan Donator

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    I've said hes been slightly above average at drafting, and I stand by that.
     
  15. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP

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    When it comes to drafting, I doubt we'll ever really know how much was him and how much it wasn't. As far as free agency, he did horrible this year.I don't have the numbers but I believe we got about 9 guys and we have 1 or 2 of those guys left on the team. As far as the draft, we'll have to wait and see how the 2011 class turns out. I like Tannehill a lot which was a no brainer. Veron, Miller and Martin have shown some potential. If they all develop into starters it'd could be a great draft. The key tho could be if Egnew ever develops into a top TE or at least contributes, specially in the red zone.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  16. mdolfan27

    mdolfan27 Active Member

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    michael egnew and ted ginn were great picks in the draft. NOT
     
  17. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    I read the title of this thread and thought it was in reference to Dez's mom. Oops my bad.
     
  18. Ferretsquig

    Ferretsquig Perennial All-Pro

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    I don't think hes done all that bad in free agency. The big time signings of Dansby and Pennington worked out pretty well, even if you think Dansby is overpaid. Wake was a great find. Goodman and Hill were great signings....just wish they hadn't let them go. Wilford was the only guy they paid big bucks to that turned out to be a complete dud.
     
  19. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP

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    Penny just fell on our laps that year. They all hit and miss, not just Ireland.

    Ozzy rules!!

    ---------- Post added at 10:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ----------

    We don't know about Egnew yet. I know you think if he's not a probowler in his first season then he's a bust but sometimes it takes time. Soliai was not very good at first and now he's a top player for us.You need to give the kid some time.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  20. Zounds

    Zounds A True Fan Donator

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    Maybe you should go look for a Randy Mueller thread
     
  21. normaniii

    normaniii A True Fan

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    Irelands first draft in full control was the 2011 draft, where we have 4 guys out of 5 drafted, contributing in their 2nd season (Pouncey, Thomas, Clay & Wilson). That is, in anybody book an outstanding draft.

    This year we already have a starting QB & RT and a rotational RB & DE who is also contributing superbly in ST.

    IMO, Ireland since he has taken full control has been superb come draft day.
     
  22. Gofish1331

    Gofish1331 Starter

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    Good at drafting....like Ted Ginn....or Pat White......or Chad Henne....?
     
  23. ChambersWI

    ChambersWI Owner of the Palace of Wisdom Finheaven VIP Donator

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    always hard to tell how vets will react to a new system. Look at Nnamdi Asomaugh. Nobody even thought about throwing against him in Oakland. In Philly he's been constantly burnt.
     
  24. ONole1

    ONole1 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Agree, but wouldn't be shocked if they went after a top WR, DE, CB or FS that may hit the market.
     
  25. Fish-Head

    Fish-Head U made the pudding but forgot the proof.

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    It never ceases to amaze me how when evaluating Jeff Ireland people are comfortable with the simplest math... A look at how many players contributing will, for most on here, provide the entire picture when the reality is... It is not close.

    One of the most IMPORTANT aspects of a GM's 'performance' are his philosophies... I think we can all agree that the league is pass centric and has been for QUITE SOME TIME now... Even BEFORE Ireland came on board... Over his tenure we have had the same weaknesses... and strengths... The number of picks, cap space and free agent try outs along the line (on both sides) is completely disproportionate to other areas of the team... You don't have to be Einstein to figure out that Jeff's philosophy has been to build from the trenches out... A philosophy which has LONG been outdated...

    I'm sorry but an all 'world' top 3 center (like Pouncey might be) will just not have the same impact on a game as even a top 20 receiver... It is just the way the game is now. Couple that with the YEARS it takes to build at 8 positions and you have a VERY difficult time building a group that peaks at the same time let alone keeping them together!!! Hence we stand on the verge of losing Jake Long BEFORE we're truly competitive... Ireland's centerpiece, good or bad...

    I think when you talk about GM that you should be talking about the 'plan', the 'vision', the big picture and regardless of the number of so called 'hits' (subjective) he has had in the draft or 'misses' in FA (also subjective) you must take into account the overall philosophy and structure to build around. This team is sorely lacking in talent at WR... and it's biggest weakness is stopping the pass... In a pass centric league that is simply unacceptable... It has taken us 5 years and 2 rebuilds to stabilize the QB position... I think that Jeff has proven his philosophies are outdated. Just like his mentor.
     
  26. HarryBagpipe

    HarryBagpipe Archibald Meatpants Super Donator Donator

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    Well said. When people are citing jimmy Wilson, Charles clay and Daniel Thomas as proof to excellent drafting you know it's just grasping at straws.
     
  27. gdiaz0358

    gdiaz0358 Rookie

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    I think with the help of Philbin/Croyle we will be able to sign a limited # of FAs who will not cost us much and will fit right in. We havent had a real head coach paired with Ireland, so now that we do I expect us to have a good FA class. It will be small but I know we will pick up a few Def players to fill some holes.
     
  28. Canadi-Phin

    Canadi-Phin I hate everyone else in the AFC East

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    I don't really disagree with you but to use some Parcelss like terms, if I have a thai chef I'm not giving him italian ingredients. Sparano wanted to run the show with the line play. Old school I agree. Look at last year under a new coach and we grab a QB, RT which as a big need and fit the ZBS, Vernon a pass rusher, a seam threat TE, ZBS RB and then two late round WR that seem to fit the West Coast offense. If Ireland would have been drafting players for a WCO and we werent running it I would have had a bigger problem. The coaching staff does dictate alot of the GMs success. Sparano and stafff did a terrible job developing players I think we can all agree. Philbin already seems to be getting more out of guys after 8 games. We shall see truly 3 years from now. In my opinion Parcells bringing in Sparano to run that Old School offense was more Irelands problem then anything.
     
  29. Ferretsquig

    Ferretsquig Perennial All-Pro

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    His job is to evaluate talent within the set framework, not define the path the franchise goes down. Parcells was handed a blank slate and was able to mold it in his image but either by fortune or design that's not what Ireland is presented with.
     
  30. Irishfinfan1

    Irishfinfan1 Well-Known Member

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    Agree with this, 2011 was an odd year because Parcells and co were gone, Sparano was still here but anybody could tell was for the chop. In circumstances like that it is a bit difficult to know what kind of players to go for, I wouldn't label Thomas a success just yet though. This year has been much more simple because with Philbin and co on board it was clear what type of players they want, and again Ireland appears to have had the best draft in over a decade.
    For those who say Ireland's philosophy is build from the lines out and invest high picks there I'm not overly sure you can be certain on that. The problem was picks were being spent on the oline and because Sparano was so useless they weren't panning out, meaning Ireland has to invest more picks there. Ireland was using the picks to match Sparano's philosophy and now he is using them to match Philbin's philosophy, that's what I think anyway.
     
  31. Codemaster

    Codemaster Active Member

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    The only problem I have with Ireland right now is ignoring the obvious holes at WR and DB. I understand that Rome wasn't built in a day but come on. We are among the worst in the NFL in both areas. I am sure he will solve both problems this offseason. Other than that I respect what he is doing and I believe we have a quality team in the making.
     
  32. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Good post and points. As of now, I believe Ireland is an average GM, who has had his hits and misses like all the others. I don't agree on his overall philosophy being flawed. You point to our problems at WR and CB, which every knows. However, Ireland did take his shots at filling those needs in Marshall and VD, who MANY thought would be the answers. They did not work out but, I cannot fault Ireland for that.

    Far and away, the BIGGEST problem was finding a QB, because without a VG one every GM and HC is gonna SUCK. Everyone knows that Long was Tuna's pick, passing on Ryan was not on Ireland, although he may have agreed.

    Then what? Penny was re-cycled for a VG year, we take Henne as the best available (who Tuna loved), pass on Orton, add Moore who had a VG year, pass on Flynn, among others, and now appear to have a REAL QB.

    Bottom line is that any GM or HC is going to be under fire without a VG QB, and that Ireland has been average, not worthy of hate or love. JMO
     
  33. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    I have to consider a new coach, new O, new D, and giving some time to see who can do what with this. Based on everything I have read from Philbin, he wants to build through the draft. If you are Ireland, would you discount that, and just sign guys, and tell him to deal with it?
     
  34. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    I think there are several reasons. One, prior to Joe Philibin, he was trying to find players to fit an outdated system. That might be oversimplifying a bit, but when virtually every other team is playing a different style, especially on offense, it's going to be a little hard to find players that fit your old school version. The other reason is that Miami has generally looked to add depth with some hit or miss types. That doesn't excuse Ireland for missing on high priced guys who were expected to be starters, though. I think it does point out how tough free agency is. Most players that teams want to keep don't make it to free agency so you are looking at players that maybe don't fit a specific system, might have some problems (coachabilityl, work ethic) etc.
     
  35. spiketex

    spiketex Kiko Alonso - El Bravo 47 the yappy chihuahua Super Donator Donator

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    Maybe Jeff Ireland's perceived skill in drafting is more a reflection of the quality of scouting performed. We are definitely better than we used to be in the Wannstedt era of awful drafting but there is still scope for improvement. I get the impression that Ireland has trained his scouts to the point where he uses their information to distill those players he is interested in and then does his own analysis to make final decisions. On the surface it seems a pretty good process. In contrast, I don't know whether sufficient resources or quality of information is developed scouting the players on other teams that ultimately become free agents. There is probably a different talent in identifying potential and whether a college player is a decent fit in our system compared to analyzing current players.
    Brandon Marshall obviously was blessed with incredible talent and on the surface should have been the key big time WR that we needed. However, after a relatively short period it was clear that he had major problems off the field. In hindsight these issues turned out to be a borderline personality disorder that probably drove Ireland and his coaches crazy. Chicago appears better able to handle him through the established relationship with another handful in Cutler. At any rate, Ireland's talent evaluation of Marshall was probably sound. But his purchase as a free agent was a failure because we didn't understand what we were getting.
     
  36. BringBackDan13

    BringBackDan13 Well-Known Member

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    I would have to disagree. As someone above posted...the best players on our D are all free agent acquisitions. Wake, Soliai, Starks, Burnett and Dansby. 5 of our starting front 7. A front 7 that is amongst the best in football.
     
  37. Fish-Head

    Fish-Head U made the pudding but forgot the proof.

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    I certainly think that Sparano is a big part of the discussion... How much of the issue was Jeff feeding Sparano's philosophy or vice versa we'll never know... I definitely fault Ireland more... and the reasoning is simple... With the inordinate amount of picks and money sunk into that line over the years... How can we be only mediocre??? While the DL is light years ahead of the O... It seems to stand to reason that we should at least have assembled a very good, dependable and durable core... Even under Philbin the OL has been terribly inconsistent... So while we absolutely NEED WR's and DB's... The line is ANYTHING but a finished product... Especially since we are on the eve of losing both Starks and LOng.
     
  38. Fish-Head

    Fish-Head U made the pudding but forgot the proof.

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    I have to disagree with you there... I think that is the very DEFINITION of a GM's job description. The vision, the plan, the architecture are EXACTLY the things a GM must concern himself with daily. I just don't see Ireland being proactive... I think he is actually resistant to change not open to it.
     
  39. Fish-Head

    Fish-Head U made the pudding but forgot the proof.

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    I think the lackluster approach he took at finding stalwarts at WR and CB demonstrate the fact that he does not value those positions enough which speaks to the heart of what worries me about him... Also both Smith and Vontae, the two highest picks in the CB spot are at BEST inconsistent and look to be little more than MAYBE a little above average. That does not speak well to his abilities as a talent evaluator...

    But your point about QB is DEAD ON. This team was headed absolutely NOWHERE without Tannehill. Period.
     
  40. Canadi-Phin

    Canadi-Phin I hate everyone else in the AFC East

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    I agree with you for sure, I think though having crappy development really hurt some of these guys. The problem I felt we had here in Miami was Ireland was picked to grab players by Parcells to fit Sparano's role. Since Fat Tuna left and now with Sparano gone I feel like his number of actually NFL players has gone up. This is by no means a free pass. He has made some decisions that I still don't agree with but having good coaching can hide alot of talent evalutors crappy decisions.
     
  41. circumstances

    circumstances Starter

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    paul soliai was a 4th round draft choice of YOUR miami dolphins. and if you want to nitpick, wake was signed from the canadian football league (not a free agent from another nfl franchise). starks, burnett and dansby i will give you, though :)
     
  42. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Soliai was also a 4th round pick who was franchised for $12M, and signed for another $12M over two years. I fail to see the point on where Cam came from as a FA, just that he was one who any other team could sign. The same could be said of Bess, as an undrafted rookie.

    I don't get your point, a FA is a FA.
     
  43. Ferretsquig

    Ferretsquig Perennial All-Pro

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    It had nothing to do with valuing one position over the other. As you said yourself, the plan was perfectly clear.....build inside out. And the '09 draft was almost entirely committed to finding skill position players. It just turns out that it was a horrible draft, in part I'm sure because of Ireland and his scouts, in part due to whatever influence Parcells had and the development of the players by the coaching staff. The development of Davis and Smith or lack thereof has little to do with a talent deficit. White and Turner on the other hand.....

    Of course he has to concern himself with the big picture, but he doesn't define it. Its a product of the ownership, management, coaching, players and even the fanbase in tandem. This club at the moment is defined by Tannehill and Philbin and Ireland's job is to find players that can excel under their leadership.
     
  44. Strangeworld

    Strangeworld A True Fan

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    Ireland is a ham and egger... The lengths people on this forum go to defend mediocrity is astounding.
     
  45. circumstances

    circumstances Starter

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    not to me. a player your own team drafted that never leaves (even though his contract expires and he is technically free for however long) is not the same as bringing in another team's veteran player in free agency (no matter how many times it happens). while i feel that it is very important to retain your own players and know which ones to re-sign and which ones to let go, they are still your players, brought up through your organization. i also see a distinction between another team's free agent and cam wake coming from canada. i further see a distinction between signing undrafted college players and signing veteran free agents. i take your point as ireland having a somewhat poor track record at signing other teams' veteran free agents, but knowing which UDFA's to sign (which i see as more an extension of the college draft), and mining other leagues for talent (cam wake, marcus thigpen) is somewhat different, and ireland has found good players in those avenues.
     
  46. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    I do understand your thinking, and put a ? on Soliaia for the same reason. I also agree that Wake and Bess are kinda different, and kinda the same as a standard FA. They were also a whole lot cheaper, a good thing.

    My disagreements with Ireland in FA were Winston and Manningham this past off season, and RT, along with FS the year before, when there were a number of options at both positions. He may have gotten lucky on Martin taking what would have been Winston's place but, that was it on these four positions. Naanee was the worst rated WR the year before, and Columbo was there with him. I could not believe those signings, with what was available, and we lost a year with Jones at FS, where he did not belong.

    That being said, when I look at what I believe Ireland has done, he has been average, so far.

    *I have to give some credit to this thread. It's one of the VERY few where there are many good posts and points instead of pointless rants on Ireland.
     
  47. iambanned

    iambanned A True Fan

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    I do believe our big FA acquisition has to be the WR because it's rare for rookie WRs to have an impact, and we NEED impact ASAP out of a WR. I mean, look at Justin Blackmon. That guy is a stud but was invisible for the first 1/2 of season.
     
  48. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    That's what I would do. Bowe, Jennings, and Wallace look like they will be available in FA, and there is nothing at CB or Pass rush there. I think we can also add a good OL as well. Then a CB at the top of the draft.
     
  49. PALMA

    PALMA A very famous spit

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    Until Ireland hits on some dynamic playmakers - ballhawkers, explosive receivers that get separation on anyone, beastly rusher.... I will call Ireland a failure.

    We can't rely on Hartline or Bess to get us over the top, especially Bess. We love him, coaches love him, but there's no way he had a chance to catch Tanehill's 1st and 10 beauty down the sideline at the end of the game against the Colts. Bess did all he could, but a studlier guy makes that play to put us in a position to win. Bess = 8 - 8.

    The Jeremy Kerleys, Denarius Moores, T.Y. Hiltons, Antonio Browns are all in the draft, we need to stockpile on these guys. Ireland gives too much credit to his own guys, waiting until it's too late to dump them and move on.
     
  50. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Would you consider Tannehill a dynamic play maker? I would. :)
     

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