MLB HOF 2007: Gwynn & Ripken | Page 6 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

MLB HOF 2007: Gwynn & Ripken

I don't get what the big deal is about revolutionzing a position. Ya its great, but that doesnt make him any better of a player for doing it

No it doesn't make him a better player but it lead the way for power guys like Arod, Tejeda and Nomar.

Before Ripken, the majority of SS couldn't hit a lick and if they hit .250 with 5 HRs a year it would be considered good.
 
Ripken and Larkin have similar stats (a lot closer than I thought), but I think most people would take Cal over Larkin if they had a choice between the two.

I do agree however that Ripken is a tad bit overrated though.
 
:shakeno:

Ripken is a HOFer no doubt but in my opinion if I had 1 vote for 1 player on this year ballot it would have went to Gwynn, who I feel is the better player. Everyone was making a big stink about Ripken not getting 100% of the votes and how they should take away voting for the guys who didn't vote for him, but he wasn't Ted Williams, Willie Mayes, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron (who also didn't receive 100% of the votes) therefore Ripken is being overrated which I think his streak makes him out to be a better player than he was.

Ripken was one of the best SS in the history of baseball so far but his low BA and OBP hurts him. Oddly enough might have been higher if he didn't have "the streak" because one days rest does a body wonders.
 
Ripken is a HOFer no doubt but in my opinion if I had 1 vote for 1 player on this year ballot it would have went to Gwynn, who I feel is the better player. Everyone was making a big stink about Ripken not getting 100% of the votes and how they should take away voting for the guys who didn't vote for him, but he wasn't Ted Williams, Willie Mayes, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron (who also didn't receive 100% of the votes) therefore Ripken is being overrated which I think his streak makes him out to be a better player than he was.

Ripken was one of the best SS in the history of baseball so far but his low BA and OBP hurts him. Oddly enough might have been higher if he didn't have "the streak" because one days rest does a body wonders.

I agree 100%

Ripken was a great player even though I really only caught the tail end of his career, and he has great numbers and the streak was/is an amazing feat. However I dont know if he is as great as everyone makes him out to be, not because he isnt great or a first ballot HOF player, but because they seem to give him way to much credit and make him out to be way better than he was.

Also Gwynn was a better player IMO though that may be biased because he is also my favorite all time.
 
Ernie Banks, Arky Vaughn, Robin Yount, A-Rod, Honus Wagner are 5 right there. I could keep going on too.....

And by the end of his career I might throw in Jeter who will have more hits and a higher career avg.

Banks, Yount and (by the time his career's over) A-Rod all did the bulk of their offensive damage at other positions.
 
I'll give it a try.

Honus Wagner
Ernie Banks
Alex Rodriguez
Barry Larkin
Miguel Tejada

Those five I consider better.

I have a hard time trying to put Ozzie Smith or anybody else anywhere in his league...so I would say..that he is the clear cut 6th best shortstop in MLB history.

This is my fault; when I wrote the question, I meant to say 5 shortstops currently in the HOF that are better. Nevertheless, I would urge you to take a look at this article before determining Ripken's place in baseball history. When looking at the value of shortstops in their prime, only Hornsby, Rodriguez and Vaughn were better than Ripken. Ripken's value exceeds that of Jeter, Tejada, Larkin and Smith.

Here's the thing: we tend to think of the 1990's Ripken, the guy who probably played a little too long, whose career probably suffered under the weight of The Streak, and who posted a lot of so-so batting averages in a super offensive era. We forget that the Ripken from 1982-1991 was an absolute offensive monster in an era where run production was much lower than it is today. You have to compare players against the era in which they played. When all is said and done, Tejada's raw offensive stats will probably look a lot better than Ripken's. However, by the standards of the day, Ripken was better vis-a-vis his peers than Tejada, and by the study above, a tick better than Jeter (though in Jeter's defense, it's awfully close). For Ripken's prime years (82-91), his OPS+ was 126.4, meaning he was 26% better than an average hitter. For Tejada's prime years (2000-06), it was 121. Thus, in his prime years (and it's prime years that we should be most seriously considering, since that's what usually gets you into the HOF), Ripken was better compared to his peers than Tejada.

Ozzie Smith isn't close. Smith's defense was tremendous, of course, but he was a mediocre, at best, offensive player. Even at shortstop, offense still counts for a lot more than defense. For Smith to have been a more valuable player than Ripken, he would have probably had to play 2nd, shortstop and 3rd base all by himself to make up for the difference in offense.

Barry Larkin probably would have been close if he could have stayed healthy during his prime years. But he lost an average of 43 games a season to injury. What's more valuable, 162 games of excellent production, or 119 games of excellent production?
 
Look, Cal Ripkin is a great SS and a great player. Sure fire HALL OF FAME player. Nobody ever denied that.

But, he is overrated. He didn't change the position. His numbers aren't anything special. Just a .275 or so lifetime hitter. Didn't even hit 500 home runs in 21 seasons. The STREAK is all he is about. Period.

Good bless him. Good guy in a sport with a lot of bad ones. But he is overrated!!
 
and on getting 100% of the vote thing. Nobody ever will.

Although, if there is one guy who will come damn close and maybe get 99%.......it could be Marino Rivera! His stats and postseason stats in an era with the extra round of the playoffs is second to none.
 
and on getting 100% of the vote thing. Nobody ever will.

Although, if there is one guy who will come damn close and maybe get 99%.......it could be Marino Rivera! His stats and postseason stats in an era with the extra round of the playoffs is second to none.

Good point, Rivera should get 99%-100% but people will hold his 4 or 5 post season blown saves against him, especially 2 really big blown ones (2001 Game 7 WS and 2004 Game 4 ALCS).

Remember the voters that do hold that against them will be the same ones that won't vote for Arod because he (seemingly) never got a big hit in NY with the pressure on him.
 
Good point, Rivera should get 99%-100% but people will hold his 4 or 5 post season blown saves against him, especially 2 really big blown ones (2001 Game 7 WS and 2004 Game 4 ALCS).

Remember the voters that do hold that against them will be the same ones that won't vote for Arod because he (seemingly) never got a big hit in NY with the pressure on him.


Please, AROD will have 3,000 hits and 500+ home runs. Big hits or not he is first ballot.

And was 2004 a blown save? He inherited runners when he entered the game, he didn't start that inning.
 
And was 2004 a blown save? He inherited runners when he entered the game, he didn't start that inning.

Rivera, game 4 ALCS in 2004, He entered in the 8th, but started the 9th and gave up the tying run. Regardless, its a blown save when you are on the mound and the tying run scores....inherited or not.

To the pitcher that blows the save by letting the run score, its not an ER since he didnt put the runner on, but its still his blown save/blown hold in that situation.

He would take the loss as well if its the winning run obviously.

P.S. I dont think the 2007 (edit sorry, meant 2001) or 2004 will overshadow his dominance.
 
Please, AROD will have 3,000 hits and 500+ home runs. Big hits or not he is first ballot.

And was 2004 a blown save? He inherited runners when he entered the game, he didn't start that inning.

I never said Arod isn't a HOF or on the first ballot, but he won't get 99 to 100% of the votes either. Yet he should.

I guess you blocked out the Millar walk, Roberts' steal, Mueller's single from your memory.... I don't blame you for that though :wink:

But yes the next day was considered a blown save with the inherited runners. Rivera was in a no win situation in that game.
 
Rivera, game 4 in 2004, He entered in the 8th, but started the 9th and gave up the tying run. Regardless, its a blown save when you are on the mound and the tying run scores....inherited or not.

To the pitcher that blows the save by letting the run score, its not an ER since he didnt put the runner on, but its still his blown save/blown hold in that situation.

He would take the loss as well if its the winning run obviously.

P.S. I dont think the 2007 or 2004 will overshadow his dominance.

I think you meant 1997, but either way none of those 3 to 4 games should overshadow his career. He's the best ever. Nuff said. But Yankee hater voters will use that excuse.
 
I never said Arod isn't a HOF or on the first ballot, but he won't get 99 to 100% of the votes either. Yet he should.

I guess you blocked out the Millar walk, Roberts' steal, Mueller's single from your memory.... I don't blame you for that though :wink:

But yes the next day was considered a blown save with the inherited runners. Rivera was in a no win situation in that game.

Honestly the only time I have ever cursed at him! How do you walk that boy! :shakeno:
 
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