Mock draft | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Mock draft

Never apologize for an incredibly well-written explanation of what position importance is to this team and the value placed on them. You definitely broke this analysis down really well that it should be a blueprint for readers on this site! Well Done!!
Thanks brother!
 
I always love your posts.

I do think Miami needs more talent at wide receiver, though. Parker is great, but Williams drops too many passes. I'm still hopeful that Grant might thrive with Tua.

I was a little surprised with the Ford trade. Maybe that shows the front office is confident with some of the unproven young receivers that we haven't seen much of?

What are your thoughts on Roche? Could he fit in a Van Noy role? I don't see him at DE, but he can rush the passer.

Great point on corner and we know Flores values that position. Wouldn't surprise me if pick 1a ends up being a corner.

Agree the Dolphins need another DT, preferably someone who can stop the run and at least pressure the pocket. Who do you like in this draft class?
Thanks, as I do yours!

Given DaVante Parker's age and durability concerns, not to mention his salary commitments will only rise, I can definitely see the team drafting another WR high. Given that we might have a shot at Jamarr Chase or one of the Alabama receivers, it wouldnt' surprise me to see us take one in the top 10. Chase reminds me a little of Jerry Rice ... the football player is just so much better than how he will show at the Combine. Plus, there are a lot of good receivers coming out of college these days, and it's a good idea to get a true #1 to pair with Tua so they can build a long-term relationship. A true #1 WR makes it so much easier for the rest of the WR corps to succeed. While Parker is that guy now, the future looks less certain. It might also make sense to bring in a veteran WR who can teach rookies how to become great, kinda like how Nat Moore did for the Marks Brothers.

Ford trade didn't surprise me ... but trading with New England did. Ford is imminently replacable, and we do not need WR's right now. Even without Albert Wilson and whats-his-name opting out of 2020 from fear of Coronavirus, our WR corps is just fine. Even with Preston Williams suffering injury, Jakeem Grant has stepped up. Ford would have eventually been on the roster bubble ... it was inevitable. Getting something for him was a smart move. My fear is that Belichick just wanted our playbook now that we've changed OC's away from the guy who used to coach in New England. Yes, they had a need. Yes, Ford is an OK body to fill the WR position and they desperately need WR's. But in the grand scheme of things, Ford's play is not going to significantly effect New England, and they'll constantly be looking to upgrade from him.

Don't really know enough about Roche, so I'll defer that question until I have more of an understanding of his situation. We definitely do need to groom someone for the Van Noy role. At the moment, I'd say Van Ginkel is the protege but that is not written in stone. While many people will be quick to point out that Kyle Van Noy has not had a robust stat line since joining Miami, it should be noted that our metamorphosis from a very bad defense to a very good defense coincides directly with Van Noy showing up in a leadership role. What he does on the field matters ... but IMHO, he isn't given enough credit for what he does off the field. Having him calling the shots and teaching the LB's and leading in the locker room is great. This defense added pass rush pressure (Ogbah), flexibility (Van Noy), cohesiveness (Van Noy), and discipline (new DC) and those things really need to be noted amongst us fans.
 
That Jerry Rice comparison for Chase is interesting. I love Chase. Really my only concern is opting out, but I don't think it will take long for him to get back up to speed. In that sense, though, Smith could overtake him draft-wise. Smith and Waddle have obviously had a lot of success with Tua. Could be a smooth transition.

Good point on Ford. He was always kind of on the bubble with Miami. Decent, but not great.
 
Well from a needs point of view, we appear to be set at QB, TE, and WR. But there are always needs at certain positions (CB, WR, pass rusher) where you simply cannot ever get enough good players, so you typically take one when the value is there, regardless of need. Our particular defense is always starved for certain roles (DE/OLB hybrid, SS/LB hybrid, and DT/DE hybrid), so if you see any of those available, they're higher priority for us than most teams. So we may value those hybrid players higher than other teams, and draft them earlier than most predictions for those guys.

As for what position can be taken last, on offense I'd say TE and QB are flush with talent, and draftees in those positions may be flat out wasted. Our WR position might still be taken just to pair a good young WR1 with our rookie QB, especially considering the injuries Parker and Williams have seen in their careers. But, our WR corps is pretty solid.

On defense, we have a need of 1 more guy at every position, so any draftee adds value to the team. But, any OLB will become an understudy to Kyle Van Noy and direct competition for Andrew Van Ginkel, so it's not an instant upgrade. Our MLB is wide open, despite Jerome Baker and Elandon Roberts both having shown flashes. But, that position has lost some of its value in the past decade as the rules favor offenses and pass-first NFL offenses have minimized middle run stuffers. So that position is constantly outmatched athletically. If he's a solid run defender like Raekwon McMillan, he'll be constantly targeted with quick/fast RB/WR to expose him for an easy short pass repeatedly. If he's a light quick guy like Jerome Baker, he's going to be run over by pulling guards, FB's, or powerful or shifty RB's. So, it is rare to have a complete MLB and he isn't as much of a game changer as he used to be in past eras.

While Ogbah has played well, we definitely have room for another DE pass rusher. Despite Wilkins looking pretty solid, we definitely need another DT with Raekwon Davis having some ups and downs and Godchaux maybe not having the flexibility this defense prefers. Lawson is OK, but not great at DE/OLB, so we'll replace him when we find a good replacement, but until then, we'll probably keep him around.

On the back end, you simply cannot ever have enough CB's, and with X and Byron Jones both having health/durability issues ... we could very well go for another CB. With Rowe and McCain's age and up/down performance, we definitely need another S to push for a starting role as well as provide depth at the position. Need-wise, S is a bigger need than CB. All LB spots are open, though MLB is more wide-open whereas OLB/DE is far more important.

Sorry for the long reply, but it is less simple than the pure need positions. :/
How is Wide Receiver not one of our biggest needs? We have Parker, and IR Williams who can’t finish a season off of IR. I would argue our biggest needs are in this order:

1. RB
2. WR
3. Center (For competition & depth)
4. Another WR
5. LB/DE (hybrid player who can play both standing up and otherwise)
6. Maybe another DB, just for depth because we aren’t sure what we have with IGGY.

All the rest of it is just depth...
 
RB is the weakest position on the team for sure, I just don't want to address it too early.

I would take another shot on a vet FA and draft several after the 2nd round.
Wouldn’t want to take a chance at an elite player eh? Especially since we only have 4 picks in the first 2 rounds?
 
Wouldn’t want to take a chance at an elite player eh? Especially since we only have 4 picks in the first 2 rounds?
The value of "an elite player" at that position is not worth it.

I do not want to start up the RB draft value argument again so I won't go back and forth on it here.


Just look around the league and count the teams that are happy they took a RB in Round 1.

KC took one with the last pick of R 1 which was a luxury pick for a stacked roster.

Carolina gets the same production out of a scrap heap guy when McCaffery is out injured and collecting his MILLIONS.

Gruden is probably happy with Jacobs who has been pretty good.

Is Dallas truly happy to be paying Zeke all that money when it turns out he is not that great when the OL loses some guys?

IF the Fins did not have needs at harder positions to fill than RB I might be talked into a guy like Etienne(who could be a star)but they need help in areas that are tougher to fill than RB.
 
The value of "an elite player" at that position is not worth it.

I do not want to start up the RB draft value argument again so I won't go back and forth on it here.


Just look around the league and count the teams that are happy they took a RB in Round 1.

KC took one with the last pick of R 1 which was a luxury pick for a stacked roster.

Carolina gets the same production out of a scrap heap guy when McCaffery is out injured and collecting his MILLIONS.

Gruden is probably happy with Jacobs who has been pretty good.

Is Dallas truly happy to be paying Zeke all that money when it turns out he is not that great when the OL loses some guys?

IF the Fins did not have needs at harder positions to fill than RB I might be talked into a guy like Etienne(who could be a star)but they need help in areas that are tougher to fill than RB.
Meh. If you keep repeating the same mistake and expecting a different result, never mind. Agree to disagree. We have plenty of picks early and not so many holes. Running back is probably the biggest one. Truth is we can go BPA with our roster, but need does always get factored into the BPA evaluation. At the end of the day, it matters not what you or I think in terms of value or who we should draft, the FO will do what they will do.

However, smart money is on an RB early because it makes sense, but it depends upon how the draft board falls. WR is also a huge need. We have to get Tua Weapons. We upgraded the trenches last year, now it’s time logically to upgrade offensive weapons and maybe add another front 7 player or two who can add more disruption. We shall see...
 
How is Wide Receiver not one of our biggest needs? We have Parker, and IR Williams who can’t finish a season off of IR. I would argue our biggest needs are in this order:

1. RB
2. WR
3. Center (For competition & depth)
4. Another WR
5. LB/DE (hybrid player who can play both standing up and otherwise)
6. Maybe another DB, just for depth because we aren’t sure what we have with IGGY.

All the rest of it is just depth...
You definitely have a point with RB. I just don't rate RB that highly. As our success with Ahmed lately shows ... we can find success even with guys basically off the street, so it's just not a high value position these days. That would be different if we're talking about Etienne, who is a Zeke Emanuel/Saquon Barkley level talent. Still, I'm just not a big believer that the position merits a particularly high draft pick these days.

I see WR differently than you do though. Parker is good, Williams is solid, Grant has shown flashes of being solid himself. If we needed WR's, we have Albert Wilson and what's-his-name who took a break this season from Coronavirus fears, and those guys are ours if we want them. Personally, neither would play for me again, but who knows what our front office thinks. WR's are good coming out of college these days, and there's a lot of talent available (Jamarr Chase being particularly tempting with the Texans pick), so we could definitely get some talent there. I just have more faith in the guys we have I guess. I would like a new #1 to pair with Tua, then if Parker/Williams is out injured, we don't miss a beat.

Center I think we need to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Pre-Karras our OL SUCKED. But with Ted Karras calling the shots, everyone we plug into the OL looks competent ... which has not happened in decades. While I give the biggest credit for that to the OL Coach, I definitely would pay Karras and keep this organization together because our track record with OL is terrible. Also, Karras (knock on wood) has so far proven durable. Remember, in the pre-season we heard a lot of chatter that Karras was a one-year rental and we were ready to put the kid from Wisconsin in at center to replace him by 2021 ... possibly sooner.

As for the LB/DE, I definitely see that as a major need, because those hybrid edge players are the cornerstone of this multiple front defense. Essentially, this defense transfers the concept of a linebacker--who represents the ultimate in flexibility--to all front 6 players. Today's NFL uses the nickel as its base defense really, and despite terminology, it is incorrect to think of the DL and LB groups collectively as a "Front Seven" because there's usually only 6 guys there. So, the concepts of a 34 and 43 are outdated and functionally outmoded. Today you hear more about people playing "2-gap" or "3-technique" depending upon where the DL's role or where they line up. Our defense absolutely wants the Randy Starks guys who can play DT and be a penetrating lineman and also line up as a pass rusher even in the interior of the DL. These guys are often big guys like Ndamukong Suh who can also occupy two blockers when needed while also becoming a pure gap-penetrating monster against the run and in the pass rush. This all means our LB's need to be tremendous hybrids.

On the edge those LB's need to be able to flex into true DE positions and threaten the pass rush with speed. They need to line up as LB's and run stunts and delayed blitzes to throw off passing options when the QB tries to step up into the pocket. This leads to many mobile QB's flowing outside of the pocket, because they pocket may become a trap (Admiral Ackbar - "Its a trap!"). Those are essentially the 34 edge liinebackers updated for a 6 man front, but with even more versatility for today's matchup league. The old school run stuffer LB's are going out of style, rapidly replaced by the hybrid SS/LB guy who can be a thumper in the run game despite being lighter, but still with the speed to cover speedy slot receivers and running backs. Sure, they may get overmatched vs. big TE's, but it is an impossible ask of the LB to be good at everything ... because the offense can always find a weakness to exploit there. So yeah, we keep working to develop guys like Jerome Baker. We hope his speed means he can become one of those LB's ... and he is improving. But ... Bake has a long way to go in terms of run defense and reading offenses, so let's keep our fingers crossed. Surely we will be considering a stud linebacker like Micah Parsons to fill that role instead. But ... is the position really worth that high of a draft pick? Maybe not.

The Van Noy role has not gotten the stats here, but since he came in our defense has been a LOT better. That is no coincidence. Sure, Ogbah's pass rush helped a lot. Sure, Howard's INT's are game changers. And getting guys like Van Ginkel (fumble recovery TD, blocked punt) more experience and reps has helped. But at the end of the day, it has been Van Noy who has enabled these guys to shine. Whether it is Van Ginkel or a new draft pick (like UVA's Charles Snowden, my super sleeper) remains to be seen. But, we'll be looking to improve our LB corps. Agreed.

Your comment about the WR injury status needs to be applied to the DB position as well, IMHO. We get our CB's and S's dinged up a lot around here, and depth is necessary. Coach Flo's system simply can never have enough coverage CB's, and tends to prefer running 3 safeties who are good at coverage. So yeah, with Rowe and McCain getting older, Howard and Jones having injury concerns .... we need a LOT of DB's. Even if/when Iggy develops (and he sucks so far honestly, so it is not guaranteed to happen), he is only one guy. We can't even run 3 safeties now because Brandon Jones is needed to fill in for Rowe and McCain if they get injured ... and he already plays a lot of snaps just to rest those guys.

So all in all, our draft needs are still rather extensive, and yes, there's a lot of need on the defensive side. But this is the NFL ... every team has holes.
 
You definitely have a point with RB. I just don't rate RB that highly. As our success with Ahmed lately shows ... we can find success even with guys basically off the street, so it's just not a high value position these days. That would be different if we're talking about Etienne, who is a Zeke Emanuel/Saquon Barkley level talent. Still, I'm just not a big believer that the position merits a particularly high draft pick these days.

I see WR differently than you do though. Parker is good, Williams is solid, Grant has shown flashes of being solid himself. If we needed WR's, we have Albert Wilson and what's-his-name who took a break this season from Coronavirus fears, and those guys are ours if we want them. Personally, neither would play for me again, but who knows what our front office thinks. WR's are good coming out of college these days, and there's a lot of talent available (Jamarr Chase being particularly tempting with the Texans pick), so we could definitely get some talent there. I just have more faith in the guys we have I guess. I would like a new #1 to pair with Tua, then if Parker/Williams is out injured, we don't miss a beat.

Center I think we need to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Pre-Karras our OL SUCKED. But with Ted Karras calling the shots, everyone we plug into the OL looks competent ... which has not happened in decades. While I give the biggest credit for that to the OL Coach, I definitely would pay Karras and keep this organization together because our track record with OL is terrible. Also, Karras (knock on wood) has so far proven durable. Remember, in the pre-season we heard a lot of chatter that Karras was a one-year rental and we were ready to put the kid from Wisconsin in at center to replace him by 2021 ... possibly sooner.

As for the LB/DE, I definitely see that as a major need, because those hybrid edge players are the cornerstone of this multiple front defense. Essentially, this defense transfers the concept of a linebacker--who represents the ultimate in flexibility--to all front 6 players. Today's NFL uses the nickel as its base defense really, and despite terminology, it is incorrect to think of the DL and LB groups collectively as a "Front Seven" because there's usually only 6 guys there. So, the concepts of a 34 and 43 are outdated and functionally outmoded. Today you hear more about people playing "2-gap" or "3-technique" depending upon where the DL's role or where they line up. Our defense absolutely wants the Randy Starks guys who can play DT and be a penetrating lineman and also line up as a pass rusher even in the interior of the DL. These guys are often big guys like Ndamukong Suh who can also occupy two blockers when needed while also becoming a pure gap-penetrating monster against the run and in the pass rush. This all means our LB's need to be tremendous hybrids.

On the edge those LB's need to be able to flex into true DE positions and threaten the pass rush with speed. They need to line up as LB's and run stunts and delayed blitzes to throw off passing options when the QB tries to step up into the pocket. This leads to many mobile QB's flowing outside of the pocket, because they pocket may become a trap (Admiral Ackbar - "Its a trap!"). Those are essentially the 34 edge liinebackers updated for a 6 man front, but with even more versatility for today's matchup league. The old school run stuffer LB's are going out of style, rapidly replaced by the hybrid SS/LB guy who can be a thumper in the run game despite being lighter, but still with the speed to cover speedy slot receivers and running backs. Sure, they may get overmatched vs. big TE's, but it is an impossible ask of the LB to be good at everything ... because the offense can always find a weakness to exploit there. So yeah, we keep working to develop guys like Jerome Baker. We hope his speed means he can become one of those LB's ... and he is improving. But ... Bake has a long way to go in terms of run defense and reading offenses, so let's keep our fingers crossed. Surely we will be considering a stud linebacker like Micah Parsons to fill that role instead. But ... is the position really worth that high of a draft pick? Maybe not.

The Van Noy role has not gotten the stats here, but since he came in our defense has been a LOT better. That is no coincidence. Sure, Ogbah's pass rush helped a lot. Sure, Howard's INT's are game changers. And getting guys like Van Ginkel (fumble recovery TD, blocked punt) more experience and reps has helped. But at the end of the day, it has been Van Noy who has enabled these guys to shine. Whether it is Van Ginkel or a new draft pick (like UVA's Charles Snowden, my super sleeper) remains to be seen. But, we'll be looking to improve our LB corps. Agreed.

Your comment about the WR injury status needs to be applied to the DB position as well, IMHO. We get our CB's and S's dinged up a lot around here, and depth is necessary. Coach Flo's system simply can never have enough coverage CB's, and tends to prefer running 3 safeties who are good at coverage. So yeah, with Rowe and McCain getting older, Howard and Jones having injury concerns .... we need a LOT of DB's. Even if/when Iggy develops (and he sucks so far honestly, so it is not guaranteed to happen), he is only one guy. We can't even run 3 safeties now because Brandon Jones is needed to fill in for Rowe and McCain if they get injured ... and he already plays a lot of snaps just to rest those guys.

So all in all, our draft needs are still rather extensive, and yes, there's a lot of need on the defensive side. But this is the NFL ... every team has holes.
We need speed and explosive players. Those players tend to go in the earlier rounds. We have 5 picks in the first three rounds. We can add a DB, LB, Dlineman, Rb, & receiver. We need speed. We have depth at CB with needham and IGGY, but yes we can add another DB. We need more weapons on offense, and this franchise has for some reason not emphasized drafting those positions in early rounds the past 20 years and I think that has been a huge mistake and I hope we don’t repeat it.

Most of the best receivers in the league were drafted in the 1st 3 rounds, RB’s too. I never understood that whole philosophy, like “Nah, we don’t need an elite receiver like Stefon Diggs, or De’andre Hopkins or Julio Jones, let’s draft another fat guy on defense who doesn’t score touchdowns. If we add speed to the offense to go along with our already good defense we will be able to go toe to toe with anyone and if we don’t we probably won’t. We have enough draft picks to address all of our needs, and we are not good enough at WR or Running back, We’re just not.
 
We need speed and explosive players. Those players tend to go in the earlier rounds. We have 5 picks in the first three rounds. We can add a DB, LB, Dlineman, Rb, & receiver. We need speed. We have depth at CB with needham and IGGY, but yes we can add another DB. We need more weapons on offense, and this franchise has for some reason not emphasized drafting those positions in early rounds the past 20 years and I think that has been a huge mistake and I hope we don’t repeat it.

Most of the best receivers in the league were drafted in the 1st 3 rounds, RB’s too. I never understood that whole philosophy, like “Nah, we don’t need an elite receiver like Stefon Diggs, or De’andre Hopkins or Julio Jones, let’s draft another fat guy on defense who doesn’t score touchdowns. If we add speed to the offense to go along with our already good defense we will be able to go toe to toe with anyone and if we don’t we probably won’t. We have enough draft picks to address all of our needs, and we are not good enough at WR or Running back, We’re just not.
Not disagreeing with you, but let's consider a few things. The BEST receiver prospect in this draft--and would have been the best prospect in last years draft if he had come out--is Jamarr Chase. He is not particularly fast by NFL speed receiver metrics. But I gotta tell ya, he reminds me a lot of Jerry Rice, who was, arguably, the BEST WR OF ALL TIME. I love speed, but if I'm picking the WR's in this year's draft, I'm NOT picking the burners ... I'm picking Jamarr Chase.

And your points are all valid ... we need speed. But we need it on defense as much or more than we do on offense honestly. Matt Breida was the "fastest guy in the NFL" last year according to the metrics people. We traded for him, gave all the goal line carries to the slow goal-line battering ram Jordan Howard, then replaced Breida entirely with the much slower Gaskins, then picked up DeAndre Washington to replace Gaskins, then started Salmon Ahmed who is having success. Not sure speed is the primary characteristic for our RB choices.

You mentioned De'andre Hopkins, well he's fast but he's not elite NFL fast. Diggs is. Jones is fast,but he's not elite NFL fast either. I'm on board with getting an elite WR. But most of the elite guys are bigger guys, not faster guys. Jakeem Grant is an elite NFL speed guy. Matt Breida is an elite NFL speed guy. Albert Wilson is an elite NFL speed guy. We're succeeding with bigger WR's like DaVante Parker and Preston Williams. Even at Alabama Tua preferred elite receivers who did not have elite NFL speed, so he targeted Jerry Jeudy, Davonta Smith and Waddle more frequently than he was Henry Ruggs. Nobody created more separation than Ruggs. Nobody threatened the end zone every touch more than Ruggs. But speed isn't the only thing that matters. If we add Jamarr Chase I think you'll be very happy with our WR position. :)
 
Not disagreeing with you, but let's consider a few things. The BEST receiver prospect in this draft--and would have been the best prospect in last years draft if he had come out--is Jamarr Chase. He is not particularly fast by NFL speed receiver metrics. But I gotta tell ya, he reminds me a lot of Jerry Rice, who was, arguably, the BEST WR OF ALL TIME. I love speed, but if I'm picking the WR's in this year's draft, I'm NOT picking the burners ... I'm picking Jamarr Chase.

And your points are all valid ... we need speed. But we need it on defense as much or more than we do on offense honestly. Matt Breida was the "fastest guy in the NFL" last year according to the metrics people. We traded for him, gave all the goal line carries to the slow goal-line battering ram Jordan Howard, then replaced Breida entirely with the much slower Gaskins, then picked up DeAndre Washington to replace Gaskins, then started Salmon Ahmed who is having success. Not sure speed is the primary characteristic for our RB choices.

You mentioned De'andre Hopkins, well he's fast but he's not elite NFL fast. Diggs is. Jones is fast,but he's not elite NFL fast either. I'm on board with getting an elite WR. But most of the elite guys are bigger guys, not faster guys. Jakeem Grant is an elite NFL speed guy. Matt Breida is an elite NFL speed guy. Albert Wilson is an elite NFL speed guy. We're succeeding with bigger WR's like DaVante Parker and Preston Williams. Even at Alabama Tua preferred elite receivers who did not have elite NFL speed, so he targeted Jerry Jeudy, Davonta Smith and Waddle more frequently than he was Henry Ruggs. Nobody created more separation than Ruggs. Nobody threatened the end zone every touch more than Ruggs. But speed isn't the only thing that matters. If we add Jamarr Chase I think you'll be very happy with our WR position. :)
Yes, I get it. What I mean is simply Elite play making prospects who either have the following characteristics, or some combo thereof:

-Incredible Hands & Route Running
-Speed
-Shiftiness
-Size
-Power
-Explosiveness

at the offensive skill positions, and those guys usually go early. That’s all I’m saying let’s invest for once some early picks in skill positions.
 
Yes, I get it. What I mean is simply Elite play making prospects who either have the following characteristics, or some combo thereof:

-Incredible Hands & Route Running
-Speed
-Shiftiness
-Size
-Power
-Explosiveness

at the offensive skill positions, and those guys usually go early. That’s all I’m saying let’s invest for once some early picks in skill positions.
Yeah, I an see where you're coming from. I like our TE corps right now, and the OL group (fins crossed) seems to finally be looking pretty solid with potential for the future as well. Assuming we're set at QB, that only leaves the WR and RB positions to form a very strong offense. I'd say we've spent a lot of draft resources in those groups. Austin Jackson, Solomon Kindley, and Robert Hunt all have solid to good potential and are very young. Michael Deiter is still in the mix as well. Ted Karras is just entering the prime of his career, and we have Jesse Davis and Ereck Flowers providing young veteran guidance. That's a good mix.

With Gesicki (exceptional length, vertical and speed) presenting a constant mismatch option in the passing game, Adam Shaheen (when he's healthy) offering another size/speed mismatch and enough mass to be a good blocker, plus Durham Smythe's in-line blocking and a little versatility in the passing game as well ... we've really got an exciting young TE corps to bookend our solid young OL. That's the sort of platform that helps a young QB really develop quickly. Giving Tua a good young WR with whom to grow would be a good move.

We'll see about the RB position. But I hear ya about the value of a stud WR#1 in the draft.
 
Back
Top Bottom