Old Topic, but Espn Insider's take on what happened trading to #19.

[ckparrothead]

I've read that article merman, but just because the Dolphins were the Vikes' best option, it does not mean they were their only option. The Vikings could have worked out a reasonable trade with any one of the other teams that called. Yes, trading to the Dolphins was the best choice for them, allowed them to make one of the best moves of the draft...trade down and acquire a pick, and get the guy you wanted anyway. However, that does not mean it was their only move.

The Vikes probably would have picked up better terms if they made the deal with the Cowboys or Patriots. They made the Dolphins promise not to trade the pick because that was why they were only taking a fourth round pick instead of a higher pick...they were trying to get their cake and eat it too. The Browns gave up a 2nd to move up one spot earlier.

Their was a distinct possibility that the Vikings could have traded that pick, even had the Dolphins not called. You can't deny it, because you don't know.

 

[mbmonk]

but we have been told by credible sources that the Patriots were also looking to trade into the Vikings' position at No. 19 for Vernon Carey, which would have been disastrous for the Dolphins

Just wanted to say ... OK I was wrong for blasting the FO for being outfoxed by the Pats. I really thought the pats were just playing us like a violen.

I was wrong. I admit it. I am sorry Rick. But I want apologize to Wansted :).

Ok I feel better now.

 

[Merman]

Their was a distinct possibility that the Vikings could have traded that pick, even had the Dolphins not called. You can't deny it, because you don't know.

Very true we don't know for sure. Most of the evidence points to the fact that Spielman is a rookie GM and was easily clipped because he could afford no mistakes. I think we both, maybe all, understand that??? I was going to leave it alone until "more creditable sources " was bought up.

 

[ckparrothead]

Scouts Inc says that they have credible sources that tell them the Pats were trying to move up for Carey. Thats not insignificant. The whole would the Vikes have pulled the trigger on it...well, thats a separate issue. Maybe the Vikings would, maybe the Vikings wouldn't. I think its unfair to say that Spielman got "clipped" for a pick from his end out of inexperience, considering he had good intel, and was right on, that the team one pick below the Dolphins were on the phone trying to move up one pick ahead of the Dolphins in order to pick up the guy the Dolphins wanted...no, NEEDED, badly. Would the Vikes have pulled the trigger? Well from the Dolphins perspective, they knew they weren't taking Udeze, the Patriots were moving up for Carey not Udeze, so from the Phins perspective, why WOULDNT the Vikings take the Patriots offer?

The only reason I brought this up to begin with, was to refute a bit more those people who were 100% convinced that the Patriots trying to move up to take Carey was a lie and that IF the Pats were indeed trying to move up, it was because they wanted to go for Wilfork and thought the Phins would take him.

 

[rafael]

The argument that NE couldn't have wanted Carey b/c they didn't take another OL later is poor. Just look at Miami. They had a couple of wrs targeted in the first, but when that didn't work out they didn't take one in the draft. Does anybody really believe that Miami wouldn't have considered Clayton or Evans if they had been available. It just seems like some people want to believe what they want to believe.

 

[Merman]

The argument that NE couldn't have wanted Carey b/c they didn't take another OL later is poor. Just look at Miami. They had a couple of wrs targeted in the first, but when that didn't work out they didn't take one in the draft. Does anybody really believe that Miami wouldn't have considered Clayton or Evans if they had been available.

That was not the arguement. It was NE's need for an O/L was not as great as their need for a NT. Just as the Dolphins didn't pick a WR.

Niether Miami or NE tried for those WRs. Without considering need who do you think was the better player, Carey or Wilfork???

It just seems like some people want to believe what they want to believe.

Absolutely.

 

[Merman]

I think its unfair to say that Spielman got "clipped" for a pick from his end out of inexperience, considering he had good intel, and was right on, that the team one pick below the Dolphins were on the phone trying to move up one pick ahead of the Dolphins in order to pick up the guy the Dolphins wanted...no, NEEDED, badly.

Spielman is a rookie GM under considerable pressure to do well and was in a big spotlight during the draft. He had the opportunity to call the Vikings bluff and take Carey at number 20 instead of 19.

A GM with more stature and self-assurance probably would have told the Vikings to take their chances with all the mistakes they have made in the past two years.

Would the Vikes have pulled the trigger? Well from the Dolphins perspective, they knew they weren't taking Udeze, the Patriots were moving up for Carey not Udeze, so from the Phins perspective, why WOULDNT the Vikings take the Patriots offer?

The Vikings knew who the Patriots were trying to acquire or who the Patriots said they were trying to acquire. So the Vikings either told the Dolphins the truth here or lied.

If it was truthfully Carey then the Vikings were just intimidating the Dolphins, trying to get a quick pick with no chance to lose their man. The Dolphins also knew who the Vikings wanted. Everyone is under the same pressure to get the pick they want and need in the first round. A trade with the Patriots who did have defensive needs probably didn't seem like such a good idea.

If the Vikings were telling the truth or not they were trying to steal a pick and were successful.

 

[ZOD]

I haven't read the entire thread so excuse me if it's already been said.

"The Herd" had a Seattle reporter on this morning. I guess he's the equivelent to Marvez, Cole, or fill in name here.

Colin asked about their first round draft choice and wondered "If the Seahawks" felt as though this was their man. He said the player they coveted was Vince Wilfork. He said they called alot of teams and named the Patriots and Vikings specifically.

With this nugget I guess if Seattle has been mentioned you could eliminate the Seahawks.

 

[ckparrothead]

It was NE's need for an O/L was not as great as their need for a NT

The Patriots didn't have some glaring hole at DT. Mock drafts almost never had the Pats taking a nose tackle in the draft. Keith Traylor, Ty Warren, Dan Klecko, and Richard Seymour are all capable of playing NT. Ty Warren was drafted with it in mind. If they were to, say, have Ty Warren and Keith Traylor share responsibilities at NT then when they have Traylor in they have two solid starting DEs in Seymour and Warren, as well as guys like Jarvis Green, their recent RFA signing Rodney Bailey, and Willie McGinnest to cycle in. Bobby Hamilton is also unsigned as of yet (I think) and the Pats could bring him back.

So along the DL, the Patriots were not exactly needy.

He had the opportunity to call the Vikings bluff and take Carey at number 20 instead of 19.

You say that, but as stated, you don't know that for the truth. You don't know that the Vikings would have opted against trading with the Patriots. You speculate that. Speculating is exactly why Spielman traded the pick, because he didn't want to get caught like the Dolphins did last year, speculating that they could give up X amount to try and move up and grab one of the elite OTs in the draft.

 

[rafael]

That was not the arguement. It was NE's need for an O/L was not as great as their need for a NT. Just as the Dolphins didn't pick a WR.

Niether Miami or NE tried for those WRs. Without considering need who do you think was the better player, Carey or Wilfork???




Absolutely.

That was the support you provided for the argument that NE's need was greater. You said that it's hard to believe they had a need since they didn't take OL in the whole draft. I'm pointing out that your assumption that if they were willing to to take Carey at #19 then they must also be willing to take another OL later is flawed. My example was that Miami was willing to take some wrs at #20, but was not willing to take another wr later.

It is clear that both NT and OL were both needs for NE. Most teams with needs at two positions will take whomever they think is the better player. Both Wilfork and Carey had similar question marks. It is very possible that NE had Carey rated above Wilfork as has been reported by "credible sources". I don't understand how you can disregard that as a possibility and simply take your assumption that Wilfork would be the pick over Carey as fact and keep saying that RS got clipped. Basically, your entire argument is that all the sources that claim that NE wanted Carey are lying and that you know this b/c you believe NT was a greater need and you had Wilfork rated higher.

 

[Merman]

With this nugget I guess if Seattle has been mentioned you could eliminate the Seahawks.

Seattle was mentioned in the Minn. article. Thanks for the info.

IMO it comes down to the Dolphins, the Vikings and the outcome.

 

[Jimmy James]

I think it also comes down to New England having more picks than sin. It just doesn't make sense to me that IF Carey was above Wilfork and IF they knew Miami wanted him so bad why they wouldn't outbid the Dolphins for him. I think the evidence suggests that the Vikings weren't interested in upping the price because they wanted a sure thing. That seriously calls into question their willingness to do the deal with the Patriots if RS says no.

I guess what I'm suggesting is as follows:

Patriots call and ask about moving up
Vikings say, "hmm" and call us because they think they can get the best of both worlds by arranging something with us
Miami says yes because we're in a position where the powers that be believe we have to draft for need and not value

 

[Merman]

The Patriots didn't have some glaring hole at DT. Mock drafts almost never had the Pats taking a nose tackle in the draft. Keith Traylor, Ty Warren, Dan Klecko, and Richard Seymour are all capable of playing NT. Ty Warren was drafted with it in mind. If they were to, say, have Ty Warren and Keith Traylor share responsibilities at NT then when they have Traylor in they have two solid starting DEs in Seymour and Warren, as well as guys like Jarvis Green, their recent RFA signing Rodney Bailey, and Willie McGinnest to cycle in. Bobby Hamilton is also unsigned as of yet (I think) and the Pats could bring him back.

I already went through this with Zod. I realize this is your opinion but you should double check for the reality of the NT situation in NE.

originally posted by Merman
He had the opportunity to call the Vikings bluff and take Carey at number 20 instead of 19.

You say that, but as stated, you don't know that for the truth.

Of course it's the truth. Spielman had every right and the authority to call the Vikings on what they said. The Vikings could not force him to do anything he didn't want to do. BTW bluff and take Carey is one thought not a prediction of what would have happened.

You don't know that the Vikings would have opted against trading with the Patriots. You speculate that. Speculating is exactly why Spielman traded the pick, because he didn't want to get caught like the Dolphins did last year, speculating that they could give up X amount to try and move up and grab one of the elite OTs in the draft.

Did you read my last post??? It doesn't matter if the Vikings would have traded with the Patriots or not. Saying you will trade with your division rival is intimidation if true or not. Spielman folded. You can't change that.


I am not trying to get anyone angry. I said Spielman is a rookie GM that was easily clipped because he could afford no mistakes. He is a rookie GM. He did get easily taken for a fourth round pick. Because he could not afford any mistakes of not getting Carey in the fisrt round. All are reasons that are interlinked for what happened.