Who actually fits our system | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Who actually fits our system

hoops said:
I'd be worried about the range and cover with klein and kiko as my starting nickel/sub backers assuming Reddick would be rushing on the edge in the sub...I'd also be worried about Reddick holding up vs tackles on the edge at that size and weight...they gonna take him for a ride if they can lock out

anyways I know this is just spit balling
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I doubt Reddick would be rushing the edge in nickel sub. I think he's a straight linebacker. He might blitz. But that's not a down lineman duty. I guess they could try and work a 3-3 stack with Haason Reddick blitzing from numerous places in the formation. But really it would probably involve four down linemen plus Kiko and Haason.
 
that makes more sense to me...to me Reddick is an off the los 3 down lb that you gap and overload blitz and maybe on occasion you would let him rush on the edge but rarely

not a go to sub/nickel edge rusher

the problem is right now the edge rush is what he's best at...everything else in terms of lb play is a work in progress which will take time and hiccups...maybe that will keep him on the board longer but I doubt 54 longer
 
hoops said:
that makes more sense to me...to me Reddick is an off the los 3 down lb that you gap and overload blitz and maybe on occasion you would let him rush on the edge but rarely

not a go to sub/nickel edge rusher

the problem is right now the edge rush is what he's best at...everything else in terms of lb play is a work in progress which will take time and hiccups...maybe that will keep him on the board longer but I doubt 54 longer
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From what I saw at the Senior Bowl he would give us more right now, as raw as he is as a linebacker, than we got from our linebackers last year. Plus there's a lot of upside there. The problem I have is I don't think he's #22 overall type talent but I don't think he gets to #54 overall either and if he runs sub 4.7, which he looks like he can, someone's going to want to take him earlier than 54.

I'm trying to find the alternative to Zach Cunningham if he's gone at #22 and I'm really torn. I'm assuming Howard will be gone, Foster won't make it out of the top 12, as much as I'd like to upgrade at OG it's too early for me given our defense. I just watched Taco Charlton against Penn State and Wisconsin and HECK NO do I take that at #22. I know I can get a slot corner and a FS later so I don't want to reach at 22. The way things are lining up right now, and it's way early to call before the combine, but Takkarist McKinley, Charles Harris, Jarred Davis and Carl Lawson all look like possibilities but I haven't gotten around to looking at the tape on any of them yet.

I've looked at 6 draft sites to try and get a sense of the value around 22 and they lineup like this:

16. CB Teez Taylor
17. WR Corey Davis
18. OLB Tim Williams
19. WR John Ross
20. OLB Takkarist McKinley
21. CB Sidney Jones
22. OT Cam Robinson
23. OT Ryan Ramczyk
24. QB Deshaun Watson
25. DT Malik McDowel
26. DE Taco Charlton
27. QB DeShone Kizer
28. RB Christian McCaffrey
29. OLB Zach Cunningham
30. CB Quincy Wilson
31. OT Garett Bolles
32. DE Charles Harris
33. CB Gareon Conley
34. ILB Jarred Davis
35. DE Carl Lawson
36. DT Caleb Brantley
37. OG Dan Feeney
38. OLB Haason Reddick
39. CB Adoree Jackson
40. OG Forrest Lamp

That's based on average ranking which is all going to change after the combine.
 
datruth55 said:
From what I saw at the Senior Bowl he would give us more right now, as raw as he is as a linebacker, than we got from our linebackers last year. Plus there's a lot of upside there. The problem I have is I don't think he's #22 overall type talent but I don't think he gets to #54 overall either and if he runs sub 4.7, which he looks like he can, someone's going to want to take him earlier than 54.

I'm trying to find the alternative to Zach Cunningham if he's gone at #22 and I'm really torn. I'm assuming Howard will be gone, Foster won't make it out of the top 12, as much as I'd like to upgrade at OG it's too early for me given our defense. I just watched Taco Charlton against Penn State and Wisconsin and HECK NO do I take that at #22. I know I can get a slot corner and a FS later so I don't want to reach at 22. The way things are lining up right now, and it's way early to call before the combine, but Takkarist McKinley, Charles Harris, Jarred Davis and Carl Lawson all look like possibilities but I haven't gotten around to looking at the tape on any of them yet.

I've looked at 6 draft sites to try and get a sense of the value around 22 and they lineup like this:

16. CB Teez Taylor
17. WR Corey Davis
18. OLB Tim Williams
19. WR John Ross
20. OLB Takkarist McKinley
21. CB Sidney Jones
22. OT Cam Robinson
23. OT Ryan Ramczyk
24. QB Deshaun Watson
25. DT Malik McDowel
26. DE Taco Charlton
27. QB DeShone Kizer
28. RB Christian McCaffrey
29. OLB Zach Cunningham
30. CB Quincy Wilson
31. OT Garett Bolles
32. DE Charles Harris
33. CB Gareon Conley
34. ILB Jarred Davis
35. DE Carl Lawson
36. DT Caleb Brantley
37. OG Dan Feeney
38. OLB Haason Reddick
39. CB Adoree Jackson
40. OG Forrest Lamp

That's based on average ranking which is all going to change after the combine.
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I think if miamis in the corner draft market it will be in the slot comp for McCain and I think I can get that on day 3...I like penton personally and his size will allow me to get him later...he can stay more attached out of cuts imo and he competes his rear off...McCain competes he just doesn't stay attached enough and that's a bad recipe in the slot

Reddick would no doubt give us range and athleticism out the nose at lb I mean on one play at the senior bowl he was in the middle of the field they threw a little flat route not his responsibility he covered ground once he pivoted and sprinted like a gazelle to the sideline...he's got range for days and he's a pretty good space tackler and you can see the strength in his hands with his stack and shed...he's got it...but I also saw a lot of late play inside the box in the run game which Miami can't really afford...it will get better no doubt but boy are there gonna be some rough "I'm late" times in terms of his gap fill and how much shifts etc effect his off the los play in the run game...coverage wise carrying it is gonna be a work in progress but he can cover flats and backs no problem...no worries there

im with you that pick 54 seems too rich especially if what I think happens and a 34 team takes him as a starting wilb where he can stack and shed and run to the ball and not have to have instincts that I think stand out more if you don't have them in a 43...to me that's the easiest transition position for him...where he can work into it and learn off the los play and still have the most impact

as for that list I think Charles harris has the kind of edge rush tools that teams covet and that projects into a top level pass rusher but I also think he's a little undersized and his run d is pretty damn bad...at times it looks to me like he doesn't even care about it...still I have him on my list because of his pass rush tools...they are very high level...I don't see much bull rush but this dudes seriously twitched up

I haven't looked at demarcus walker but there's some awful ringing endorsements here

we need Cunningham to test well and carry weight well but not too well or that ship could sail on us...jarrad davis I think will get to us...but I think he's your classic mike only react to the ball post snap and fill my correct gap assignment player type with a little bit of a mean streak to him but he's 3 down as a mike and he doesn't have mcmillons terrible hips vs redirects to have to work around

fosters gonna test too well to get near us...I see so much alec ogletree future there...I think teams would buy into that with a top 15 pick...even if the tapes nothing but clean run to the football in college...he's another fire cracker ground cover guy

McKinley screams 34 olb to me ideal fit and should be drafted as such
 
Jarrad Davis can run and cover. He's looked as good as any LB I've watched (from this class) carrying TE's up the seam. He should have a strong Combine. I like him better in the 2nd, because I don't see top-level instincts or play-making ability. I see a good, versatile LB with good athleticism. He's a definite upgrade and a high-character prospect, but 22 is pricey - especially given the talent outside of Davis. The Combine will provide a lot of clarity - particularly for DE's/Edge rushers. At this time in 2015, Frank Clark was considered an UDFA - not just because of character concerns.
 
hoops said:
i saw enough bad tackle play at the senior bowl where I was glad I wasn't in the tackle market at least presently...the interior play I was impressed with but the tackle play was pretty ugh...some upside for sure but some guys not ready and lots of em

i guess the question becomes is Miami gonna rely on the de's as the sub package rushers again like they did last year or was that more about having to work with the personnel they had in house then and wanting more a 2 down strong and sub edge rusher type

the problem with trying to acquire that is the ones that carry the size and ability to play off the los on early downs and not be eye sores AND also win vs tackles on the edge in the sub even in a wide 9 are very rare and by and large aren't sitting around at pick 22 unless they got serious red flags for one thing or another

anyways what i saw of klein with kuechly out while a better fit for his game than being outside which he has been in the past i don't think gets Miami to where we want to be...i think it's more about settling and I'm not sure he has the true range for it every down...the panthers have no choice though but to let him go...they have to see if the Washington kid can play shaq Thompson even if the off the los stuff is still very much more athlete than instincts at lb
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So basically we need to sign Melvin Ingram for this.
 
Curious to see arm lengths and agility times for Barnett, Charleton, and Walker. For Barnett, I'm looking for a Combine in the neighborhood of Joey Bosa. I don't think he'll run or jump especially well, but his ability to turn the corner and play in space look like they'll translate to a strong 3-cone. He's a strength/agility player - much like Bosa was/is. We'll see if he's on a similar level. I'll have him in my top-10 until he tests out of it.

I want to see if Charleton has similar physical traits to Jones and Ansah. 7.10 3-cone, 35+" arms.

Walker, I just want to see. I like the player, and I hope he shows attributes that suggest his game will translate - agree with Slimm here. I kind of expect the Combine to send him spiralling into the 2nd or 3rd RD, but I see him as a 1st RD player until that happens. I think he's somewhere between Jonathan Bullard and Trey Flowers as a player. Both those guys are pretty athletic, though. I'll be rooting for him to do well in Indianapolis.
 
Snoop said:
So basically we need to sign Melvin Ingram for this.
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I would say that would make life a whole lot easier on Miami going into the draft

but if we did add ingram and it probably would cost in the 5 and 65 range to do so we need to supplement with a 2 down de who can play the run in base and early downs...you got to figure though ingram in the wide 9 with his explosion and burst projects as a 8 to 12 type sack guy I'd say...not to mention he adds a serious boost of range and athleticism at strong backer on early downs

for Miami while expensive it seems to kill 2 birds with one stone and to me looks like provided he does give you 8 sacks per money well spent

what I don't want is him plan a carry coverage backer in the nickel or something...that guy needs to hunt in the sub package the damn qb
 
I see symmetries with Ingram and porter and how using them correctly benefits everyone. We had porter as a 4-3 will his first season here ... with predictable results. Put him outside in a 3-4 and bam ... 17 sacks. It's all about using a guy to his strengths. Hoops is right on with how ingram should be used if he comes here. Could be an extremely deft signing if they know what they're doing.

I'd personally rather see Klein here though. Would be much cheaper and he can slide into 2 different position in our 4-3. He caught my eye some preseasons ago and I've followed him since. Criminally underrated. Zach Brown makes sense on some levels as well.
 
I have a tough time seeing Melvin Ingram as a fit here.

He would be a Wide-9 DE here. I don't think the Dolphins would be playing these games with having Ingram try and be a stacked Sam or Will.

I guess anything is possible but any Melvin Ingram contract is probably going to involve $30 million in guarantees and that's a lot of money to be shelling out so that you can tinker and experiment with a bunch of stuff you don't know will work. I don't think they work like that. When they shelled out dough for Byron Maxwell it was to return to virtually the same system and style he was successful with in Seattle. When they shelled out dough for Mario Williams it was again to assume virtually the same role in virtually the same system he had in 2014 with the Bills when he was so successful. And part of the reason they've got Jim Washburn and this Wide-9 in the first place is because Ndamukong Suh has a $100 million contract.

I don't think they're going to shell out big money to guys to bring them in and then get all cute with them seeing if they'll work well this way or that way. They'll do that with cheap contracts like with Isa Abdul-Quddus. They took him away from what he'd been doing in Detroit playing strong safety opposite Glover Quin who is a career free safety, moved him back to what he'd been doing in New Orleans which is playing free safety.

If you're going to offer 5 years and $65 million to someone, make it Jason Pierre-Paul. He publicly stated he wants better than what Olivier Vernon got but teams may give that figure an 8-finger discount. Seriously, I doubt too many teams are going to be anxious to shell out $17 million a year to a guy with an exploded hand. Especially with JPP's reputation for being...difficult. There will be money flowing in this year's free agent market, so you never know. But I could see it being similar to the housing market where some houses get bid up in a frenzy and some houses are just kind of the cheese standing alone. Damaged goods have a way of making teams uncomfortable like that...especially on a guy with 8 sacks over the last 2 years.

He is represented by Relativity Sports, by the way. The agency that hired Mike Tannenbaum to create an entire business unit for them.

But anyway if we're talking about close to the same numbers then Jason Pierre-Paul makes a lot more sense than Melvin Ingram. He's an extremely natural fit for Miami's Wide-9 RDE position previously manned by Andre Branch. He has everything you could want that way, length, ludicrous athleticism, ability to shut down the edge, his speed and hustle in retrace.

He uses that pteranodon wingspan of his to get his arms up into the passing lane, which is a very big deal in this style of defensive line play. This year he knocked down 8 passes at the line of scrimmage. Only Carlos Dunlap had more this year, and JPP has averaged 7 of those knockdowns over the last three seasons (much more consistent than Dunlap).

You look at him play in New York this year, particularly if you watch the Baltimore game when he played RDE exclusively, and his game fits like a glove. He is even accomplished and quite intimidating (because of that wingspan) when he pulls out into zone coverage like Miami did with Andre Branch a fair amount.

I'm not saying Miami should go ahead and give JPP his Olivier Vernon money. When he stated that's what he wants, that turned me off. But he's got a history of saying weird stuff and what he said may not reflect the reality of what teams are willing to give him. Given the Relativity connection, I would monitor his situation and price tag.

But it would probably just be a lot easier to go ahead and grab Jack Crawford.
 
well the projection with ingram is off the los lb play and I get that...I don't think he's done any of that in san diego although if he has that would sure help ease some concern...I don't like the fit as an every down 43 de even in a wide 9...I just dont think he can handle the run d aspects of it and he would get worn down taking on tackles every snap pretty much...I don't like the size either for a every down 43 de again even with our scheme and if im gonna pay him that he's gonna have to play every down

jpp since he lost that finger to my eye has missed a lot of tackles or at least he did that first year after unable to really wrap up and it has to effect his hand use and overall game...not to mention the giants didn't miss him a beat really once he was out...that's too much money for his production the last few years for my taste

jack Crawford now I can see that and it would be pretty friendly money terms too

but that still leaves us with a starting strong side backer need starting weak or mike depending on what kiko does and what the value is likely position wise if we get it in the draft (which I am more about than the free agent route) although I do think klein may be attainable in the 5 and 20 range I still have serious questions about his range as an every down mike or weak backer especially weak I don't think it will work and at mike I think it's a relatively lateral move

I just don't think a kiko and klein nickel pairing moves the needle
 
If I'm going to buy a guy that I tinker with, and this wouldn't actually be all that much tinkering if you look at the actual down for down assignments and alignments, then the guy I would love to buy and tinker with is Calais Campbell.

At least with him, he was ELITE last year. I use that term advisedly. And it's not as if last year was a fluke. Big time locker room guy. Leader. Yeah he's 30 years old, so what? He was damn good. We have big-bodied Jordan Phillips here to sit on the nose in situations we want him to, and Ndamukong Suh is no slouch when asked to do the same. Calais would give us a legit 3- and 5-technique, versatility.

He knocked down 7 passes last year and again that's a big deal in this style. It's nearly as good as a sack. A pass knockdown on 3rd down brings on the punt unit. A pass knockdown at the line on 1st or 2nd down puts the offense behind schedule which significantly increases chances of bringing on the punt unit. Statistically in terms of expected outcomes, a 1 yard gain or less (e.g. a knockdown) on 1st down is among the worst plays in football, behind only a turnover in minus territory. Not to mention those pop-ups often end up in interceptions.

On Spotrac's Market Value function they have Calais Campbell getting $8.4 million a year. That's laughable. I'd shell that out without even thinking about it. I'd have him on the plane tonight.
 
Like a lot of your ideas CK. I'm also not sold on Jordan Philips, but I hope he continues to improve. We've seen glimpses. I think most fans are overrating Miami's defensive line and I'd like to see talent brought in there.

So do you think this is a realistic free agent plan?

Sign
Campbell (I would imagine in the $12-15 million range)
Fairley
Misi (low end for depth)
Warmack
Stills
Alonso
Simms

Don't Sign
Branch (like him, but Campbell would take his spot)

Release
Albert (like him, but Warmack would be LG with Tunsil at LT...saves about $7 mil I believe)

This would greatly improve the defensive line, obviously. But, it would also mean having to find linebackers in the draft. Peppers certainly could be added in R1 if he drops. Best middle linebacker in R2 maybe the kid from Ohio State. I don't think Davis makes it that far.

Would also have to find a guard somewhere. Thoughts?
 
I don't know what Calais Campbell will go for but if that Spotrac's $8.4 million per year estimate is right it's a steal regardless of what you think of Jordan Phillips.

I think it's overkill to get both he AND Fairley though. Jordan Phillips is too good to bury that deep on the depth chart.

I'm all for retaining Koa Misi but it's a big medical gamble at any price. I hear he had the same surgery Peyton Manning did. But Peyton played QB. He didn't have to keep tackling people. I'd pass.

Stills you have to sign back but it could cost you $9 million a year.

Alonso is a RFA. Ought to think about getting him on a longer deal to prevent what is happening right now with Stills.

Seeing a estimate for Dion Sims that says $4.8 million a year. The estimate on Martellus Bennett says $6.0 million a year. That decision is obvious.

Still need a RG in your scenario. Albert-for-Warmack is sort of pay-as-you-go so that's neat. I like T.J. Lang better, though. I like Larry Warford better, too.

Seeing an estimate on Lawrence Timmons at $6 million per year. I could actually live with that. He fits what Matt Burke will want to insert at Mike while Kiko moves to Will.

Miami NEEDS to get more defensive backs on the field. They NEED to. It's a trend for a reason.

The Patriots used 5.14 defensive backs per snap last year while Miami used 4.61. That's not just the other teams constantly throwing 3-WR personnel at NE. Miami saw plenty of it.

Bill Belichick himself said nowadays they've got 5 DBs on the field about 80% of the time and then another percentage of the time they've got 6 DBs on the field on obvious 3rd down passing scenarios.

Miami didn't get that in 2016. They were among the teams that used DBs the least on a per snap basis. We've got to change that. This is why I talk about a guy like Jabrill Peppers a lot.
 
That is exactly why I've been thinking Peppers as well, to have that roamer on the underneath routes as well as being able to match up on a rb sideline to sideline, plus play nickel.
 
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