zach thomas better than ray lewis?

[The Goat]

Zach was a very good player for a long time and Miami built a D around him and never even made a AFC Title Game- never even came close. The Ravens built a D around Ray Lewis and won a Super Bowl.

I'm not taking a shot at Zach but Lewis has been the better player for most of their careers, Lewis is a lock HOfer while Zach is not making the HOF unless he has a really good year or 2 in dallas and Dallas wins it all.

I've heard this argument, and I really don't know where it came from. I understand that you're trying to be objective, and I respect that, so I'll just put it this way:

Mike Singletary is in the HOF. He's considered one of the greatest LB of all time. Look at his stats next to Zach's. Case closed.

 

[Rick Cartman]

He played on many good teams in the late 90s-early '00s and his D's were usually very highly ranked then come big games down the stretch and playoff games they'd fold. Lewis only led Bal to one Super Bowl but that's 1 more than Zach ever played in and even after they tore down the SB D they rebuilt around Ray and won 2 more division titles.

In 2000 Baltimore was 14th in points scored scoring 333 points, in Miami in '99 their O scored 326- was it the extra 7 points that put Baltimore over the hump? In '00 Miami scored 323, in '01 344, '02 378 so they had O's as good as Baltimore's '00 offense yet never came close to an AFC Title Game. A week after Miami lost at oak 27-0 the Ravens went into Oakland and held the Raiders to 3 points. That's actually a common theme.

Playoff losses for Miami, points allowed by D and what their opponent di the following week:

1997: lost 17-3, the next week NE scored just 6 points. I cannot fault their D for this loss.

1998: lost 38-3 at Denver, the next week Den was held to 23 and that was w/ 6 turnovers they forced against the Jets.

1999: Lost to Jax 62-7, the next week Jax lost at home 33-14.

2000: Lost to oak 27-0, the next week Oak scores 3 in a 16-3 loss.

2001: Lost to Ray and the Ravens 20-3(Ray's D was facing an O that was 8th in the NFL scoring 344 points while Zach's D faced the 18th ranked O sthat scored 303 points), The Ravens lost the next week 27-10.


zach and his D's had multiple chances to make a mark in January but they very rarely played well while Ray led his team to a Super Bowl title and won a SB MVP.

im almost certain if zach was a jet your opinion would be vastly different

 

[The Goat]

He played on many good teams in the late 90s-early '00s and his D's were usually very highly ranked then come big games down the stretch and playoff games they'd fold. Lewis only led Bal to one Super Bowl but that's 1 more than Zach ever played in and even after they tore down the SB D they rebuilt around Ray and won 2 more division titles.

In 2000 Baltimore was 14th in points scored scoring 333 points, in Miami in '99 their O scored 326- was it the extra 7 points that put Baltimore over the hump? In '00 Miami scored 323, in '01 344, '02 378 so they had O's as good as Baltimore's '00 offense yet never came close to an AFC Title Game. A week after Miami lost at oak 27-0 the Ravens went into Oakland and held the Raiders to 3 points. That's actually a common theme.

Playoff losses for Miami, points allowed by D and what their opponent di the following week:

1997: lost 17-3, the next week NE scored just 6 points. I cannot fault their D for this loss.

1998: lost 38-3 at Denver, the next week Den was held to 23 and that was w/ 6 turnovers they forced against the Jets.

1999: Lost to Jax 62-7, the next week Jax lost at home 33-14.

2000: Lost to oak 27-0, the next week Oak scores 3 in a 16-3 loss.

2001: Lost to Ray and the Ravens 20-3(Ray's D was facing an O that was 8th in the NFL scoring 344 points while Zach's D faced the 18th ranked O sthat scored 303 points), The Ravens lost the next week 27-10.


zach and his D's had multiple chances to make a mark in January but they very rarely played well while Ray led his team to a Super Bowl title and won a SB MVP.

Okay, this is a less sensible argument.

Seriously?

So...no Jets who weren't on the SB III team should be in the HOF? Just checking.

Just to reiterate...Football is more of a team sport than any other. Ray Lewis did not win a SB. The Baltimore Ravens did. Would they have done it without Ray Lewis? Maybe. Could Ray Lewis have done it on a less complete defense? Absolutely not.

 

[swa is funky]

i cant put all that much stock into stats when you are talking about LBs......

im a huge zach fan...but i can remember way too many times seeing him running 2 steps behind a TE or RB down the field.....

i think ray lewis was a better LB...and i bet if you asked every opposing Off Coordinator, and every other teams RBs, OL, QBs etc....theyd vote for ray more often than zach....

 

[phinfan40353]

Zach was a very good player for a long time and Miami built a D around him and never even made a AFC Title Game- never even came close. The Ravens built a D around Ray Lewis and won a Super Bowl.

I'm not taking a shot at Zach but Lewis has been the better player for most of their careers, Lewis is a lock HOfer while Zach is not making the HOF unless he has a really good year or 2 in dallas and Dallas wins it all.

Wow, this is Dan Marino vs. Joe Montana if I've ever heard it.

If you prefer to make the "Super Bowl" argument, then you've forgotten who wins Super Bowls; teams.

Let me sum this entire flawed argument up in one word: Draft.

We "built" a defense around Zach... Who exactly did we DRAFT to put around Zach that remained productive and tenured with Zach?

Surtain, Madison and Taylor. That's it. All of our other talent was drafted before, Timbo, or in some manner or another a free agent; Ogun (undrafted), Armstrong, Seau, etc...

Sure, we've had a few years of sending many Pro Bowlers from the Defense to Hawaii, but not consistently. And except for Madison, Taylor and Surtain, we've floundered at building great talent around Zach. It's always been a patchwork of players who are here for a few years and leave.

We have not DRAFTED much to "build" around Zach. Meanwhile, Baltimore has been drafted Pro Bowlers nearly every year on both sides of the ball. Not too mention, one of their linebacker classes is considered one of the greatest of all times; 2000 Ravens (Peter Boulware, Ray Lewis and Darren Sharper).

And now quickly jump to the offensive side of the argument. I can sum up this argument in 3 names: Todd Heap, Jamal Lewis and Jonathan Ogden. And for this debate, we'll keep QB play equal.

We HAVE NOT had a Franchise LT in over a decade. There's a few reasons why we haven't been to the AFC Championship game in a long time, this is the 2nd biggest (QB #1). Ogden has been a cornerstone since 1996. Sound familiar? Yea, same draft class as Ray Lewis. Ogden is a HOFer.

Jamal Lewis had a longer and more productive career than Ricky Williams as a Dolphin. Not too mention he did set the single season rushing record.

Todd Heap is also a HOF worthy player. Better than any TE we've drafted. And has been very productive since his first snap. We've not come close to his caliber or consistency in that time.

Simply look across the board at the talent the Ravens have drafted that we have not. Want to know why Ray Lewis won a SB and Zach did not? Drafting.

Super Bowls are not debates about players. They are debates about teams.

 

[SarahAnn]

Zach was a very good player for a long time and Miami built a D around him and never even made a AFC Title Game- never even came close. The Ravens built a D around Ray Lewis and won a Super Bowl.

I'm not taking a shot at Zach but Lewis has been the better player for most of their careers, Lewis is a lock HOfer while Zach is not making the HOF unless he has a really good year or 2 in dallas and Dallas wins it all.

All this proves is that our front office doesnt know how to build a team... Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

 

[Tpaddle]

i have always thought that zach has been a better player...ray gets a lot more attention but zach has been underrated

 

[Kdawg954]

Ray Lewis was simply DOMINATE in his prime . . . Zach NEVER reached the level he reached or had the impact that Ray had in games. Stats aside, its about impact . . . and Ray has Zach beat hands down in that category.

We can sit here all day and say, Ray had better defenses around him or whatever, but fact is, Ray Lewis is the best MLB of the last 12 years, case closed.

I love Zach Thomas, kid doesn't have close to the physique or body that Ray Lewis has . . . not as athletically gifted as Ray Lewis . . . but man, he has gotta be the smartest football player of the last 12 years. He puts himself in the postions to succeed . . . and is a very sure tackler. It was a pleasure watching him play MLB for the Fins . . . and I would have loved to see him finish his career here.

To me, both deserve the HOF . . . but u cant teach size and impact (and a Super Bowl ring for one of the best D's of all time), and that is why Ray Lewis is a lock.

It is kinda like Lebron and Wade . . . Wade has been extradonary . . . what he did in the 2006 finals will never be forgotten . . . we wouldn't trade him for anything . . . we love him . . . but to say u rather have Wade than Lebron . . . to me is just silly . . . no way I would take Wade over Lebron . . . Lebron is just too athletically gifted and has too much size and ability. U have to look outside of the box and be impartial . . . and its hard to do when u are comparing the best players of a team u love.

Even tho Zach or Lebron never won a title . . . Lebron has takin a Cleveland team who has no right even sniffing the playoffs . . . let alone the finals . . . while Zach was part of a team in 2002 who had NO business missing the playoffs . . . bad coaching or not. U just have to be dominate in the NFL . . . and Zach hasn't made that major impact when it counted the most, Ray Lewis has. Maybe not even Zach's fault . . . just the way it is.

 

[The Goat]

To be clear, I also think that Ray was the better player - but they both deserve to be in the Hall. Zach was absolutely, positively a game-changing player in his prime. There was some jackass columnist last year who sad Zach isn't even close. That's just amusing.

 

[phinphan4life]

While I do believe Zach has been somewhat underrated for most of his career, I still feel that Ray Lewis is the better linebacker. Statistics don't always tell the entire story. Unfortunately neither do wins and losses. (even playoffs/superbowl win/loss) Most of us as Dolphin fans tend to make an argument for Zach solely based on statistics. When a large amount of ZT's stats are bloated, when he's making tackles 7 to 10 yards downfield, as opposed to at or behind the line of scrimmage. That's not to say that it's all Zach's fault. But some of it is. Ravens fans would tend to make the argument based on winning a Superbowl. That's not entirely accurate, because, as someone mentioned before Ray Lewis didn't win that Superbowl by himself. (although he had a large part to play in it, and did win the MVP) All things considered, if we could do it over again, I would still choose Zach over Ray. That's just my Dolphin bias talking. Even though I still feel Ray is the physically superior athlete and an overall better player/playmaker at LB.

 

[SpaceMountain16]

Ray Lewis WAS an unstoppable force and WAS one of the all-time best MLB's to ever play the game. The key word there is was. Right now Zach Thomas is a better player than Ray, but not over the course of their careers. As good a player as Zach is and has been, he's never been able to take over games and dominate like Ray has. He's never been able to single handedly anchor a defense and keep it as one of the best in the NFL for his entire career. Thats not a knock on Zach it's a tribute to how good Ray Lewis has been.

 

[Gitrdone]

These were two different styles of defense. The Ravens and Lewis had an Attacking defense that forced turnovers. That allowed them to score on D, or get the ball back on O to grind the clock.

Miami however had a bend but don't break defense. It could be on the field for long periods of time, wearing down players the whole game. But they would eventually find a way to make you punt or take a FG.

So chances are if you look back at the time of possession for the years they did well for both teams. You will prob notice that the Ravens have less time on defense then what miami does.

This was not because Lewis is better then Zach, or because Zach was better then Lewis. It's because of how the defense was run and executed.

The Dolphins wasted too much time playing with a Bend but don't break defense. It cost Marino a chance at another Superbowl(Appearance). If Marino had an attacking defense like the Ravens, he would have a ring.

 

[yospiderweb]

how many pro bowl starts did ray has over zach thomas?????


i always see in the probowl zahc starting at first team

 

[emeraldfin]

I think if people are going to compare Linebackers from the 96 draft then Donnie Edwards cant be ignored either

Tackles - 1476
Sacks - 23.5
Forced Fumbles - 14
Interceptions - 28

A player who more than likely wont see the HOF but had one hell of a career. If Edwards was to get 5 more INT's he will break the record for INT's for a Linebacker.

 

[nyjunc]

Another thread about a current/former Phin's worth, another idiotic attempt from the always in denial Dolphins' Junky.

As far as the topic, both players were among the best at their positions and are deserving of the Hall.

It's another dose of reality. Zach was a very good player, not great, and he will not make the HOF.

You do realize our offense only scored a total of 15 points in those games thats 5 points a game. If an offense is constantly going three and out no defense will win a game for anybody. Ray Lewis would have done no better in a dolphin uniform with offensive performances like that. If your offense does not move the ball after a while any defense will fold.

After a while? You were down 14-0 and 21-3 in the first half at Denver in '98, you were down 24-0 in the 1st qtr at Jax in '99, 20-0 at the half at Oak in '00. You didn't have high powered offenses, did you expect them to keep pace w/ the opponent? in '00 Bal's D held Denver to 3 points in the 1st half and 3 for the game, they held Tennesse to 7 points in the 1st half and 10 for the game- Baltimore's O had 134 yards of total offense w/ just 6 first downs yet they scored 24 points and won 24-10, why? B/c the D held down the Titans O and the D and STs scored 14 points. At Oak a week after the dolphins were finished in the 1st half at Oak the Ravens shut out the league's #3 scoring offense in the 1st half and allowed only 3 points for the game.

In total in the AFC playoffs the D gave up 16 points in 3 games, that's a 1st qtr total for Miami in div playoff games from '98-'00.

I agree about '97 at NE, that wasn't the D's fault. They played well enough to win.

1998 versus Denver

Offense was not good once again. Marino 2 int and our leading rusher had 14 yards. If offense had played better the score would have been very differant and defense would have been on field less.

The game was 21-3 at the half and it was over. A week later Denver didn't score until 10 mins left in the 3rd qtr against the Jets. You could not expect your O to get into a shootout w/ Denver. Your D needed to step up and it did not.

1999 versus Jacksonville

Defense played very good previous week versus Seattle

We got beat bad and I think this performance was a combination of many things.

Our offense turned the ball over 7 times

Seattle stunk and you gave up 17 points to them. Seattle had lost 5 of 6 games heading into the playoffs including a wek earlier when the 8-8 Jets held them to 9 points in a game Seattle thought they needed to win to get into the playoffs.

Your O turned it over 7 times which does not help but in the '98 Championship Game against Denver we turned it over 6 times and Denver scored 24 points.

That was anopther game over early, 24-0 in the 1st qtr. The O stunk too but you cannot win when your D cannot keep you in games for even a half.

2000
Beat a pretty good Indy team previous week
Held them to 17 points when they had been averaging much more

The problem was it was the playoffs and Manning & the Colts were chokers(still are outside of '06). The year before at home the Colts were held to 16 points. In Indy's next playoff game they would lose 41-0.

versus Oakland
First touchdown was a pick six by Jay Fielder for 90 yards

Defense held Gannon to 143 yards
and thier leading rusher only had 56 yards

On the other hand Fielder threw 3 picks no tds and our leading rusher
had 12 yards. Yea the defense is to blame for this one lol.

That James INT was a killer BUT why did it stop the D from keeping the game close? Against Indy the dolphins had 3 first half turnovers but the D kept them in the game and thye eventually won. This is what the overrated dolphin D's of thgat time could not do consistently. it's what Baltimore's D did in '00, what TB's D did in '02, Miami's D's just weren't that good despite many lofty reg season rankings.

2001

versus Balt

we held Balt to 7 points in first half , unfortunately they held us to 3 for game.

We passed for 122 yards and fielder was our leading rusher with 16 yards
1 int.

The D was ok, they just ran into a much better D. Both O's scored about the same during the reg season and you guys were at home but they held you to 3 points and kept their O in the game. Their O ran for 222 yards against your D while Bal's D held your O to 151 total yards. The 2 Raven TD drives were 90 and 99 yards- that's not a big time D. The next week the Raven O scored 10 points.

Baltimore might not have been an offensive juggernaught when they won but they did not turn the ball over much and had a consistent run game.

In 2000 at Tennessee Jamal Lewis ran it 17 times for 47, the Bal O had 134 yds of offense but the D kept them in the game and Bal won 24-10.

In the '00 AFC Championship Jamal Lewis rushed 29 times for just 79 yds yet they beat the Raiders 16-3, the same Raider team that a week earlier crushed Miami.

So they weren't always running it well and their O was doing much in that '00 postseason yet they won a Super Bowl while the D's the Dolphins had could not even lead Miami to an AFC Title Game w/ similar offenses.


Good post though.

So, because Zach played on teams with less talent, but has the same stats are Ray, he's not as good? That doesn't make sense to me. If Ray Lewis goes into the Hall of Fame, Zach Thomas should go also.

Less talent? They played on equally talented teams, Ray elevated his D's one of which carried a bad Baltimore O to a Super Bowl while the dolphin D's led by Zach and Taylor couldn't even reach a title game.

Jason Taylor and Tim Bowens, our 2 best DL missed this game to injury. Not quite playing with a full deck.

I am sure that hurt but even w/ them in other years your D's stunk in the div round and Jason taylor in about 7 postseason games does not have a sack.

I've heard this argument, and I really don't know where it came from. I understand that you're trying to be objective, and I respect that, so I'll just put it this way:

Mike Singletary is in the HOF. He's considered one of the greatest LB of all time. Look at his stats next to Zach's. Case closed.

This is a perfect example of why #s can be misleading. Zach isn't close to being as good as Singletary was. Dolphin fans think Zach is great b/c of tackles even though the teams keep the tackle stats and they are subjective. Where are these tackles taking place? and when? It's not a big deal tackling a guy 7 yards downfield. I bring this game up alot, it was 2005 week 2 and Zach was barely noticeable all game yet the next day dolphin fans were saying how great he played b/c he had 10-12 tackles even though most were downfield. It's a subjective stat.

and we don't even know how many tackles Singletary had b/c it wasn't an official stat. You cannot compare those 2 based on #s when half the #s used todsay weren't used back then. Look at their info from nfl.com:

http://www.nfl.com/players/mikesingletary/profile?id=SIN207644

http://www.nfl.com/players/zachthomas/profile?id=THO415247

im almost certain if zach was a jet your opinion would be vastly different

You think so? Is that why I think Joe Namath(the face of our franchise) is the most overrated player in the history of the game? and why I think Tom Brady and Dan Marino are in the top 5 of best QBs all time?

So...no Jets who weren't on the SB III team should be in the HOF? Just checking.

Just to reiterate...Football is more of a team sport than any other. Ray Lewis did not win a SB. The Baltimore Ravens did. Would they have done it without Ray Lewis? Maybe. Could Ray Lewis have done it on a less complete defense? Absolutely not.

Did I say you have to win a SB? No, but Miami w/ those "great" D's neevr even came close to an AFC Title Game. Football is a team game but Ray Lewis as the leader of a great D led his team to a SB and won SB MVP, Zach as a leader of highly rated D's led his D's to annual humiliations in the playoffs. That plays into it, winning helps guys get in the HOF in case you have never noticed. It's why there are 1 million Steelers in the HOF despit more than a few not being worthy.