zach thomas better than ray lewis?

[nyjunc]

Wow, this is Dan Marino vs. Joe Montana if I've ever heard it.

If you prefer to make the "Super Bowl" argument, then you've forgotten who wins Super Bowls; teams.

Great QBs elevate teams, Marino never had the talent around him although he did have teams as talented as the 1981 49ers. Marino is right there w/ Montana, Marino elvated mediocre teams while Zach led highly rated Ds that didn't perform in big games.

We "built" a defense around Zach... Who exactly did we DRAFT to put around Zach that remained productive and tenured with Zach?

Surtain, Madison and Taylor. That's it. All of our other talent was drafted before, Timbo, or in some manner or another a free agent; Ogun (undrafted), Armstrong, Seau, etc...

It doesn't matter if they were signed or drafted, they put plenty of talent around him and Taylor. They were near the top of the rankings just about every year and they folded in big games.

We have not DRAFTED much to "build" around Zach. Meanwhile, Baltimore has been drafted Pro Bowlers nearly every year on both sides of the ball. Not too mention, one of their linebacker classes is considered one of the greatest of all times; 2000 Ravens (Peter Boulware, Ray Lewis and Darren Sharper).

It's considered the geratest b/c of the guy in the middle. Sharper never made a Pro Bowl and Boulware wasn't one in 2000.

We HAVE NOT had a Franchise LT in over a decade. There's a few reasons why we haven't been to the AFC Championship game in a long time, this is the 2nd biggest (QB #1). Ogden has been a cornerstone since 1996. Sound familiar? Yea, same draft class as Ray Lewis. Ogden is a HOFer.

and their offenses STILL stunk and Miami had mroe than a few O's in the late 90s-early 00s that were better than the 2000 Ravens. That 2000 Ravens O had a stretch of FIVE weeks WITHOUT a TD! In our week 17 meeting the Ravens had about 140 yds of total offense yet they won 34-20. They did so b/c of their Defense.

Jamal Lewis had a longer and more productive career than Ricky Williams as a Dolphin. Not too mention he did set the single season rushing record.

Ricky had over 3,000 yds in '02 & '03 and you couldn't even make the playoffs. Baltimore made the playoffs without jamal in 2001.

Todd Heap is also a HOF worthy player. Better than any TE we've drafted. And has been very productive since his first snap. We've not come close to his caliber or consistency in that time.

Todd Heap is also a HOF worthy player. Better than any TE we've drafted. And has been very productive since his first snap. We've not come close to his caliber or consistency in that time.

McMichael was a very productive player.

Simply look across the board at the talent the Ravens have drafted that we have not. Want to know why Ray Lewis won a SB and Zach did not? Drafting.

He won a SB b/c he was the leader of a great defense and won a SB MVP, they didn't allow the O to screw it up. That never happened in Miami w/ Zach as he couldn't even lead his D to a conf title game.

Super Bowls are not debates about players. They are debates about teams.

and the Ravens and dolphins had similar talent but Baltimore won b/c of Ray.

 

[Dolphins11]

I never saw Ray Lewis go on any pony rides like zach. Yes zach was as smart as they come but physically he was limited. He was ineffective blitzing and often burned in coverage. Ray Lewis was the better player in both their primes... this is nothing but homerism running wild.

 

[6r3yf0x]

ZT is better then RL any day of the week... not just on the field but off as well.

How many times has Zach been accused of murder, attempted murder, aggravated violence or any other off field crap. I'm old school and think that football players need to be role models for the most part since young kids look up to them, 80% of today's athletes should get the axe regardless of how good they can play.

My 2 Cents...

 

[BobDole]

ray was better, but zach was smarter. ray could get to the QB and take over a game (like JT used to), but noone could read a defense like zach. ray pumped his teammates up, but zach made everyone around him that much better. this one is tough - and not even close at the same time. ray was a more dominant football player but i'd take zach every day of the week and twice on sunday.

 

[SCLSU Mud Dogs]

zach plays with brains. lewis was blessed with more speed and a bigger frame but he lacks in one area that zach had, heart.

 

[Marino613]

I think Ray Lewis was the better overall player and athlete. He is also a very smart player as well. Didn't the coaches vote him 2nd smartest Defensive player behind Zach?

Zach may have the lead on tackles (although I have always believed that having a lot of tackles is mixed indication of success. The longer you let the opposing offense stay on the field, the more tackles your defense will accrue.) but Ray has more big plays.

I love Zach as a player on and off the field, but if my life savings were on the line and I had to choose a starting MLB for one game, it would probably be Ray.

 

[Marino613]

To add though - both of them are HOF material as players on the field (I don't know enough about the off the field murder charges to comment, although I am a believer in due process.)

 

[SpaceMountain16]

Great QBs elevate teams, Marino never had the talent around him although he did have teams as talented as the 1981 49ers. Marino is right there w/ Montana, Marino elvated mediocre teams while Zach led highly rated Ds that didn't perform in big games.

And i agree with this, Zach Thomas is a great LB and he's one of the all-time greatest Dolphins. His production with tackles ranks him up there with the best linebackers to ever play, but in reality he isn't. He's not as good as a Mike Singletary or a Lawrence Taylor and he's not as good as Ray Lewis. Why? Because his defenses were never as dominant, and many times couldn't finish games. Those are his shortcomings.


It doesn't matter if they were signed or drafted, they put plenty of talent around him and Taylor. They were near the top of the rankings just about every year and they folded in big games.

That defense was always better on paper than it was on the field. I am one of the biggest critics you'll find of those defenses, as i watched them routinely fold at the end of games, and the end of seasons, i never considered them as good as they were considered.



It's considered the geratest b/c of the guy in the middle. Sharper never made a Pro Bowl and Boulware wasn't one in 2000.
Maybe but you're talking about one of the all-time great defenses there. Ray Lewis is a great linebacker, but he wasn't the single reason Baltimore's defense was THAT good THAT year. Rod Woodson was very good, Boulware, Sharper, Tony Siragusa, Sam Adams they were talent laden. While the Ravens have consistently been a very good defense since, because of Ray Lewis they haven't been nearly as good as that years team when everyone left.


and their offenses STILL stunk and Miami had mroe than a few O's in the late 90s-early 00s that were better than the 2000 Ravens. That 2000 Ravens O had a stretch of FIVE weeks WITHOUT a TD! In our week 17 meeting the Ravens had about 140 yds of total offense yet they won 34-20. They did so b/c of their Defense.

I went to game in Baltimore in 2000 that they lost to the Steelers like 9-6. The Steelers got a TD and a safety. But talent wise at that point they had a better offense than the Dolphins in my opinion. We didn't have Ricky then, and were QB'd by Jay Fiedler who was very mediocre.


Ricky had over 3,000 yds in '02 & '03 and you couldn't even make the playoffs. Baltimore made the playoffs without jamal in 2001.

2002 i almost entirely blame the defense for, they allowed the Patriots and Vikings to march down the field at the end of the final two games of the season and beat us by FG's. We missed the playoffs when we SHOULD have been going for home field advantage (the Raiders who we beat got it at 11-5). Our air attack wasn't good that year as it hasn't in years since, but our defense as usual wasn't elite.

McMichael was a very productive player.

No, he was inconsistent and pretty awful.


He won a SB b/c he was the leader of a great defense and won a SB MVP, they didn't allow the O to screw it up. That never happened in Miami w/ Zach as he couldn't even lead his D to a conf title game.

But you make it sound like a bad thing, there isn't a lot of linebackers who can just carry a team to a Super Bowl.



and the Ravens and dolphins had similar talent but Baltimore won b/c of Ray.

The Ravens were a lot better, they had better players and better coaches.

 

[dlockz]

Great QBs elevate teams, Marino never had the talent around him although he did have teams as talented as the 1981 49ers. Marino is right there w/ Montana, Marino elvated mediocre teams while Zach led highly rated Ds that didn't perform in big games.

And i agree with this, Zach Thomas is a great LB and he's one of the all-time greatest Dolphins. His production with tackles ranks him up there with the best linebackers to ever play, but in reality he isn't. He's not as good as a Mike Singletary or a Lawrence Taylor and he's not as good as Ray Lewis. Why? Because his defenses were never as dominant, and many times couldn't finish games. Those are his shortcomings.


It doesn't matter if they were signed or drafted, they put plenty of talent around him and Taylor. They were near the top of the rankings just about every year and they folded in big games.

That defense was always better on paper than it was on the field. I am one of the biggest critics you'll find of those defenses, as i watched them routinely fold at the end of games, and the end of seasons, i never considered them as good as they were considered.



It's considered the geratest b/c of the guy in the middle. Sharper never made a Pro Bowl and Boulware wasn't one in 2000.
Maybe but you're talking about one of the all-time great defenses there. Ray Lewis is a great linebacker, but he wasn't the single reason Baltimore's defense was THAT good THAT year. Rod Woodson was very good, Boulware, Sharper, Tony Siragusa, Sam Adams they were talent laden. While the Ravens have consistently been a very good defense since, because of Ray Lewis they haven't been nearly as good as that years team when everyone left.


and their offenses STILL stunk and Miami had mroe than a few O's in the late 90s-early 00s that were better than the 2000 Ravens. That 2000 Ravens O had a stretch of FIVE weeks WITHOUT a TD! In our week 17 meeting the Ravens had about 140 yds of total offense yet they won 34-20. They did so b/c of their Defense.

I went to game in Baltimore in 2000 that they lost to the Steelers like 9-6. The Steelers got a TD and a safety. But talent wise at that point they had a better offense than the Dolphins in my opinion. We didn't have Ricky then, and were QB'd by Jay Fiedler who was very mediocre.


Ricky had over 3,000 yds in '02 & '03 and you couldn't even make the playoffs. Baltimore made the playoffs without jamal in 2001.

2002 i almost entirely blame the defense for, they allowed the Patriots and Vikings to march down the field at the end of the final two games of the season and beat us by FG's. We missed the playoffs when we SHOULD have been going for home field advantage (the Raiders who we beat got it at 11-5). Our air attack wasn't good that year as it hasn't in years since, but our defense as usual wasn't elite.

McMichael was a very productive player.

No, he was inconsistent and pretty awful.


He won a SB b/c he was the leader of a great defense and won a SB MVP, they didn't allow the O to screw it up. That never happened in Miami w/ Zach as he couldn't even lead his D to a conf title game.

But you make it sound like a bad thing, there isn't a lot of linebackers who can just carry a team to a Super Bowl.



and the Ravens and dolphins had similar talent but Baltimore won b/c of Ray.

The Ravens were a lot better, they had better players and better coaches.

Blame the defense for the patriots loss all you want but it was the idiotic decision to throw the ball three straight times in our own territory that lost the game for us versus N.E. run the damn ball and you at least run the clock down. Let me see put the ball in Fielder's hands or Ricky's hmm hard decision. We had 2 minutes and 46 seconds on the clock and we do that crap. We were at the 4 yard line why would we keep trying to pass the ball. We ran a total of 28 seconds off the clock and caused them to use one timeout. Who cares if Ricky Williams had over 180 yards rushing and was going at 6 a clip. Who cares if Fielder was 11 of 25 for a whopping 110 yards. I put all the blame in idiotic playcalling and Jay Fielder's poor play. The defense did fade some but it wasnt thier fault our offense gave the pats the ball back in three at dolphin 33 with plenty of time on clock.

 

[Heinegrabber]

Zach cant cover age and size have caught up to him. LB are judged by sacks and ints tackles should be expected they play behind the big guys and in front of the fast ones. By the way I luv Zach but his size made him a liabilty, just as JT did after the big tackles were gone our defense sucked. Bowens and Gardner never got the respect they deserved.

 

[The Goat]

and the Ravens and dolphins had similar talent but Baltimore won b/c of Ray.

While you make good points about the difference in statkeeping (in Singletary's time vs. Thomas's time), you seem to mix opinion with solid debate to present "factual" statements that just aren't proveable.

I'm pretty certain Peter Boulware, Rob Burnett, Duane Starks, Rod Woodson, Chris McAlister and Michael McCrary had a good bit to do with that SB. Saying "they won it because of Ray" doesn't hold water. The Ravens D that year didn't give up only 165 points and hold opponents to 2.7 yards per rush just because of Ray.

 

[#1dolphinsfan]

i think zach is a beter player but ray lewis has the better hits

 

[GRYPHONK]

I've heard this argument, and I really don't know where it came from. I understand that you're trying to be objective, and I respect that, so I'll just put it this way:

Mike Singletary is in the HOF. He's considered one of the greatest LB of all time. Look at his stats next to Zach's. Case closed.

See, that's a classic argument that people try to use. Stats aren't everything.

Teams feared playing the Baltimores D and Ray Lewis. That's just the way it was. Baltimores O and Trent Difler were right on the same page as our offense so we need to stop with the lack of offense excuse. Baltimore has never really had an offense since Vinny Testaverde left.

Backs ran from Lewis, Backs run to Zack Thomas.

The only time teams truly feard our Defense was not because of Taylor and Thomas but because of Surtain/Madison/Marion etc....

Ray Lewis was a better leader and better all around LB'ER then Thomas.

However, I mean we are comparing 2 HOF LB'ERS here. It's not like Thomas is a bad or mediocre LB'ER. The guy IMO may have been 2nd to Lewis but it is a very close 2nd.

I just hate how people try to use stats as a reasoning. There is a reason Dan Marino who held almost all the statistical records for QB was never a unanimous #1 QB of all time. Some still don't even rank him in the top 3.

It's because stats aren't everything. For the record, I do believe Marino is the best of all time

 

[PHINANALYST]

I'm not sure you can really compare the two players as they are very much opposites.

I appreciate very much the way ZT plays the game and the intelligence he brings to the table ... but if I had to chose -- I'm picking Ray ... for the same reason I agree with the Ron Wolfe / Bill Parcells in their player 'molds'.

 

[Kadiddlehopper]

Not even a reasonable question. Did Zach ever get charged with murder?