22 mill for ronnie?

[LarryFinFan]

He might be unproven but that is the cost of a top 5 pick. That is how it goes, we knew we'd have to give him a lot of money when we picked him. Cant say prove yourself and then get paid, that isnt how it works. We're paying for his potential, and hope that he lives up to being the #2 overall.

I agree with your comments, and I still think we'll forget all about this come the first week of Sept, after we see Brown bowl over a few defenders...

 

[Merman]

Show me where you can get money in a contract that is guaranteed but the signing bonus. Show me one.

You obviously missed Carson Palmer's contract in my post. I don't know how as it was even highlighted. Too much for you to read???

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

Show me where you can get money in a contract that is guaranteed but the signing bonus. Show me one.

Merman did enough.

You are getting confused with the fact that guaranteed money counts fully against the cap when the player is released. If you want you could think of it as a yearly signing bonus you can.

 

[JTech194]

If there wasn't a salary cap I wouldn't care what they paid him. Being that they have the salary cap, there should also be a cap on ROOKIE salaries. Honestly, they haven't even played a down in the NFL and they want big money. Sorry, prove yourself and then you get the big money. The whole thing sickens me. They think just because they were drafted at a certain spot, they deserve money. Every rookie contract should have incentives, but only be able to sign for the league minimum. You think you're such hot stuff, then you shouldn't have a problem with signing a contract that's heavy with incentives. After 2 or 3 years when you have proven you're worth the money then I don't see a problem with you asking for that kind of money.

I hear you fellas but, think about it this way. The proving was done while in college. These kids play for 3 or 4 years in college, make the school a hell of a lot of money and gets nothing in return. Ok you say they get a free education, but that is not what they go to college for, they go to get to the next level and even so, that free educaton $50,000 or so is nothing compared to how much money the school makes on football games. These players work extremely hard to get in a positon to be a top draft pick and I think they should be handsomely compensated for that. do I like the fact that they sometimes hold out? No. but do I blame them? No. Because if it was my son I would tell him to do he same thing. What if a player signs for a small amount of money with the idea of proving himself, and suffers a career ending injury on the first day of training camp? What happens to him then? He gets cut, and all of the hard work that he put in in college was for nothing. I don't blame them for trying to get paid first. People rip players like Terrell Owens for wanting to renegotiate his contract after a year saying that he shouldn't have signed the contract in the first place but when they don't sign the contract to begin with they get ripped (ie. Ronnie Brown)

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

I hear you fellas but, think about it this way. The proving was done while in college. These kids play for 3 or 4 years in college, make the school a hell of a lot of money and gets nothing in return. Ok you say they get a free education, but that is not what they go to college for, they go to get to the next level and even so, that free educaton $50,000 or so is nothing compared to how much money the school makes on football games. These players work extremely hard to get in a positon to be a top draft pick and I think they should be handsomely compensated for that. do I like the fact that they sometimes hold out? No. but do I blame them? No. Because if it was my son I would tell him to do he same thing. What if a player signs for a small amount of money with the idea of proving himself, and suffers a career ending injury on the first day of training camp? What happens to him then? He gets cut, and all of the hard work that he put in in college was for nothing. I don't blame them for trying to get paid first. People rip players like Terrell Owens for wanting to renegotiate his contract after a year saying that he shouldn't have signed the contract in the first place but when they don't sign the contract to begin with they get ripped (ie. Ronnie Brown)

Terrell Owens has earned the money. Ronnie Brown has not.

 

[Merman]

I see where you are going wrong. You think when it refers to a Yearly Salary, you think that means his Salary. Wrong, you are talking about something with a general term. In a given year, the term salary, in the contract, refers to a players total compensation. Bonus and salary. So, you have opened your ignorant mouth, and tried to be right. Any portion of the yearly salary that is guaranteed, is what you should have looked at. But, then you dont even know what is guaranteed, so how could you know what it meant. Ignorance is bliss, isnt it Merman? You tried to put up a good arguement, but just didnt realize your own ignorance, I can forgive that.

As for vertern qualifying offers, you still dont have a clue do you? a players base salary, now this is the money that isnt guaranteed, this is his actually salary, not his bonus's, has to escalate each year. That is why there is a reducation in his cap hit. There is a verterns minimum salary each year a player advances in his career in the NFL, but it isnt much. The only thing that has to be met, is the qualifying offer, and an increase in his pay. Just as you would hope to get a raise each year, that is written into the CBA. Ya, you get your cliff notes of the CBA. You try reading the lawyer talk out of the actual CBA. We see you already screwed the pooch on the term "salary".

Keep arguing, I will get you to see the light eventually. You can throw names around, but your own ignorance is your own downfall. Its good you are trying to learn, but just get out of your own way.

Terms:
1)Salary (as the refer to the term you point too) means the player total compensation for the year.
2)Salary (as I refer to it) is the players compensation from the team for services rendered, for that season.
3)Signing bonus is the players compensation when the contract is signed, but is "paid" in increments, as written into the contract, for the life of the contract (usually).
4)Likely to be earned incentives, is for a "bonus" to the player, specified in the contract, to meet a specific objective, like 1000 yards rushing. This bonus, does not count towards the cap, until it is met, and then it wont count until the following season. Say Ronnie has a LTBE incentive for 1k rushing, he meets that in 05, it wont count towards the Phins cap until 06.
5)Not likely to be earned incentives, is for a bonus to the player, that takes two season to count to our cap. Much like the LTBE incentives, but usually a much larger objective. Say Ronnie get a NLTBE incentive for 2000 yards rushing, he gets 2000 in 05, he gets his bonus, but it still wont count towards the cap in 06. But, now the NLTBE incentive is a LTBE, and if Ronnie gets 2000 yards in 06, he gets his bonus again, but in 07, it is part of his Salary, as you use it.

The term 1)salary includes 2) and 3), as you have pointed to in your excerpt from the CBA. The only money guaranteed to a player is 3).

I hope this helps you to understand the error of your ways, and if you have any more questions, just call me some more names and such, I will straighten you out.

You have out smarted yourself here:

In a given year, the term salary, in the contract, refers to a players total compensation. Bonus and salary.

Both bonus and base salary can be guaranteed and then prorated.

(d) Guaranteed Contracts.

Any portion of Salary for which a Team fully guarantees payment for skill or injury shall be included in Team Salary during the year earned, except that:

 

[LithoMan]

You have out smarted yourself here:



Both bonus and base salary can be guaranteed and then prorated.

Wow, you and Dupree got me there. A technicality, which is used to guarantee so much per year. WOW. The guarantee aint for salary, its for X amount to be paid per year. He wouldnt have got that if Cinci front laoded the contract, his "guaranteed" salary. where that guaranteed "salary" at after 07? Oh, but its supposed to be guaranteed? Right? I dont see squat after 07. Keep opening the trap, your just sticking your own foot in more.

Proration only happen when? Give me some of your brilliant words, so I can use them against you. Point to that CBA. Prorated how? Show us. And when it happens, it is the same thing all over again, that we've been going around on.

Glad to see you dropped the vetern contracts. At least you learned one thing so far. Keep it coming. But, I am going to use your own words against you now. Show me your brilliance.

 

[Merman]

Wow, you and Dupree got me there. A technicality, which is used to guarantee so much per year. WOW. The guarantee aint for salary, its for X amount to be paid per year. He wouldnt have got that if Cinci front laoded the contract, his "guaranteed" salary. where that guaranteed "salary" at after 07? Oh, but its supposed to be guaranteed? Right? I dont see squat after 07. Keep opening the trap, your just sticking your own foot in more.

It is not a technicality, its the rules that you don't understand. Why are you demanding that salary that has not been guaranteed be guaranteed??? Even you cannot forever deny what is plainly shoved in your face no matter how dense you are.

Proration only happen when? Give me some of your brilliant words, so I can use them against you. Point to that CBA. Prorated how? Show us. And when it happens, it is the same thing all over again, that we've been going around on.

Pro·rate: to divide proportionately. That is what is done with signing bonuses and other amounts that are treated as signing bonuses.

Quoted from the CBA
(b) Signing Bonuses.

(i) Proration. The total amount of any signing bonus shall be prorated over the term of the Player Contract in determining Team and Player Salary, except that:

(1) Signing bonuses agreed to in a Capped Year may not be prorated more than three years beyond the Final Capped Year (notwithstanding the foregoing, signing bonuses agreed to in Player Contracts approved by the Commissioner on or after agreement by the parties with respect to transition rules for proration in the 1998 League Year, but prior to court approval, and in no event earlier than June 30, 1998, may not be prorated more than six years, and signing bonuses agreed to in the 1999 or 2000 League Years may not be prorated more than seven years). Notwithstanding the foregoing, signing bonuses agreed to in the 2002-03 League Years, or in the 2001 League Year after the last game of the regular season, may not be prorated more than seven years; signing bonuses agreed to in the 2001 League Year, prior to the last game of the regular season, may not be prorated more than six years.

* Extension Agreement 1/8/02

(3) Any consideration, when paid, or guaranteed, for option years, contract extensions, contract modifications, or individually negotiated rights of first refusal;


* In a contract signed after the start of training camp, a reporting bonus for that season will be counted as a signing bonus. In a contract signed after the last pre-season game, a roster bonus for that season will be counted as a signing bonus.

*Side Letter 9/21/93: Sec. 18

* Any salary advance paid on a guaranteed basis will be counted as a signing bonus.

*Side Letter 9/21/93: Sec. 19

* For purposes of the Salary Cap and Entering Player Pool, any guaranteed bonus tied to workouts shall be treated as a Signing Bonus.

*Side Letter 6/23/93: Sec. 3

* For purposes of the Salary Cap and Entering Player Pool, any salary advance which a player is not obligated to re-pay shall be treated as a Signing Bonus.

*Side Letter 6/23/93: Sec. 4

* For purposes of the Salary Cap and Entering Player Pool, any roster or reporting bonus which is earned or paid before the start of the Club’s pre-season training camp shall be treated as a signing bonus.

Glad to see you dropped the vetern contracts. At least you learned one thing so far. Keep it coming. But, I am going to use your own words against you now. Show me your brilliance.

I didn't drop the Qualified Veteran Contracts they just do not relate to guaranteed money being prorated. I have already explained it and given the link to the CBA rules concerning these contracts twice. The point is you don't understand this or these rules either. It is not a qualified offer as you kept referring to this special type of contract.

A qualifying offer is made to a RFA to protect a Club's right to that player.

 

[Merman]

I also take back what I said about reading a salary cap FAQ. You will not understand it and will try to twist that around to your faulty understanding too. :rasp: